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How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 se...

  
 
MJKoski
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


I use X100V now after I sold all digital junk what I had including GFX50R. X100V is a real potato when it comes to printing 1 meter wide and larger. 50R, or Pentax K-1 pixel-shift, are fine for that big prints. GFX100 could be superb for that purpose.


Jun 14, 2022 at 10:40 AM
molson
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
You won't see aliasing in a print if any of the below are true:

The subject doesn't have significant detail over the Nyquist frequency.

The high-frequency detail isn't in focus.

The lens is stopped down beyond f/11.

The aliased frequencies are high enough that they are reduced to insignificance by the downsampling.

You're too far from the print.

Your vision is mad enough that you can't resolve the aliased material.

You don't know what the original subject looked like/You are insensitive to aliasing.

If the images that I see posted on the web are any indication, there are a lot of people in that last category.

Jim

OBTW, there
...Show more

Since I think I'm one of those people who like "fat pixel MF cameras", please help me out here - is the difference in acuity I see between these two image due to aliasing? Both files have the exact same highlight/shadow/clarity adjustments made in LightRoom, and both are at the LR default sharpening settings.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Yvk9Tqd81EZgyLx67







Jun 14, 2022 at 11:18 AM
JimKasson
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


molson wrote:
Since I think I'm one of those people who like "fat pixel MF cameras", please help me out here - is the difference in acuity I see between these two image due to aliasing? Both files have the exact same highlight/shadow/clarity adjustments made in LightRoom, and both are at the LR default sharpening settings.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Yvk9Tqd81EZgyLx67


The image on the left seems to have more sharpening applied than the image on the right. The default sharpening in Lr provides different sharpening per picture height for camera of different resolution. When I do tests like this I turn off sharpening. The image on the left is probably also sharper before sharpening, due to differences in fill factor and possible the lenses used.

I don't see much aliasing in either image.

But you haven't explained your test protocol, so I don't really know what I'm looking at here.

Jim




Jun 14, 2022 at 11:38 AM
molson
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
The image on the left seems to have more sharpening applied than the image on the right. The default sharpening in Lr provides different sharpening per picture height for camera of different resolution. When I do tests like this I turn off sharpening. The image on the left is probably also sharper before sharpening, due to differences in fill factor and possible the lenses used.

I don't see much aliasing in either image.

But you haven't explained your test protocol, so I don't really know what I'm looking at here.

Jim



Thanks, Jim - I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some egregious artifacts in the images I've been posting.

This was a very casual test - Fuji GFX 50R and 32-64mm f4 versus Sony A7R IVa and 24-105mm f4 G on a lightweight tripod. I just wanted to see if the extra megapixels of the Sony provided a noticeable gain over the "outdated" Fuji, but to my eye, the Fuji (on the left) still looks better. Both lenses were stopped down to f/11, so maybe the Sony is losing a bit of detail to diffraction at this point, but I wanted the test to reflect the way I might typically use the gear when I'm out hiking or exploring (and the same goes for the post-processing).



Jun 14, 2022 at 12:08 PM
JimKasson
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


molson wrote:
Thanks, Jim - I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some egregious artifacts in the images I've been posting.

This was a very casual test - Fuji GFX 50R and 32-64mm f4 versus Sony A7R IVa and 24-105mm f4 G on a lightweight tripod. I just wanted to see if the extra megapixels of the Sony provided a noticeable gain over the "outdated" Fuji, but to my eye, the Fuji (on the left) still looks better. Both lenses were stopped down to f/11, so maybe the Sony is losing a bit of detail to diffraction at this point, but
...Show more

If you normally stop down to f/11, you are unlikely to see any aliasing at all on the a7RIV, and little aliasing with the GFX 50x.




Jun 14, 2022 at 12:20 PM
molson
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
If you normally stop down to f/11, you are unlikely to see any aliasing at all on the a7RIV, and little aliasing with the GFX 50x.



I set LR sharpening to 0 for both images. The finer details in the Sony file just about turns to mush when you do that, while the Fuji image doesn't change a great deal - does that imply LR is applying stronger default sharpening to the Sony files?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BrA368T2X1erF8mb9







Jun 14, 2022 at 12:28 PM
MJKoski
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Adobe products are not that good to evaluate IQ. Camera RAW is the ultimate RAW baker software these days. RawTherapee for example is kind of a neutral processor.

Sony is generally mushy product. Not much has changed from R2 days when you had to make sure that the camera is not in a wrong mode to get maximum IQ at all times. And it eats stars.



Jun 14, 2022 at 12:45 PM
JimKasson
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


molson wrote:
I set LR sharpening to 0 for both images. The finer details in the Sony file just about turns to mush when you do that, while the Fuji image doesn't change a great deal - does that imply LR is applying stronger default sharpening to the Sony files?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BrA368T2X1erF8mb9


Well, you got rid of the oversharpening, in both cases. The default sharpening that Lr applies to the GFX 50x images is slightly stronger than that applied to the a7RIV images.

I think what we're looking at now is the effect of the small microlenses on the Fuji and the difference in lenses, assuming all else equal. I see you didn't shoot at equivalent apertures. If you shoot at the same f-stop in both cases, the Sony image will have a lot more diffraction, which would make it look mushy.




Jun 14, 2022 at 12:48 PM
JimKasson
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


MJKoski wrote:
Sony is generally mushy product.


On a per pixel basis, the a7RIV is just as sharp as the GFX 100, with same lenses and setup. And why not? Same pixel design.




Jun 14, 2022 at 12:51 PM
MJKoski
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Well, when it comes to the sensor itself yes. But I would still have to remember what settings to check to get maxium IQ (14bit uncompressed, shutter modes, shutter speed, drive mode etc.) which is not fun at all. GFX50(r) was really simple and does not look any worse than A7R4 with a good lens.

And then, one could ask why to bother with FF at all as GFX100 has one (A7R4) built-in?



Jun 15, 2022 at 03:42 AM
 


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chez
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


MJKoski wrote:
Well, when it comes to the sensor itself yes. But I would still have to remember what settings to check to get maxium IQ (14bit uncompressed, shutter modes, shutter speed, drive mode etc.) which is not fun at all. GFX50(r) was really simple and does not look any worse than A7R4 with a good lens.

And then, one could ask why to bother with FF at all as GFX100 has one (A7R4) built-in?


I don’t follow your issue with ensuring the camera is setup correctly for the photography you want. If this is too hard…there is always the P-mode for professional mode.



Jun 15, 2022 at 10:36 AM
MJKoski
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Is it really fixed now? With R2 it was always an issue if the camera was set up correctly. You see, in super cold weather just changing the battery was enough to reset all camera settings as the integrated battery just died every time. Then I had to make sure that RAW was uncompressed, drive mode was single shot and LENR is disabled. Quite easy to forget when shooting out there.

No issues with Fuji. So it's GFX100 when I decide to get more details should the X100V fail for some reason. I mostly use my cellphone with the small Fuji now but maybe GFX-bug bites again at some point.



Jun 15, 2022 at 11:08 AM
mdude85
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Doesn't a lot of this depend on the print size, subject matter, the viewing distance (usually 1.5-2x the diagonal of the print), lighting of the print, type of paper used, as well as the subject's own eyesight and biases? I can't imagine there's any one right or wrong answer.

Professional work (including fine art) often demands large resolution files, whether they are truly necessary.

As for the consumer size, if people want to spend more money on a high resolution sensor then what's the matter? The latitude offered by such large files is desirable to some people.



Jun 15, 2022 at 11:10 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


An interesting aspect of this thread is that the question is framed as how big do you have to print to see the difference.

There is no denying that there "is" a difference between the output of 33x44 100MP sensors and a rumored 24x36 100Mp sensor. There's no doubt that differences can be identified and measured.

But not everything that can be described and measured can be seen in a print.

In order to answer the "how big to see in prints" question we would have to, well, "see" big prints. And in order to answer it with some authority — and avoid confirmation bias — we'd need to see the prints without knowing their sources.

Dan



Jun 15, 2022 at 05:49 PM
rdeloe
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


gdanmitchell wrote:
An interesting aspect of this thread is that the question is framed as how big do you have to print to see the difference.

There is no denying that there "is" a difference between the output of 33x44 100MP sensors and a rumored 24x36 100Mp sensor. There's no doubt that differences can be identified and measured.

But not everything that can be described and measured can be seen in a print.

In order to answer the "how big to see in prints" question we would have to, well, "see" big prints. And in order to answer it with some authority — and avoid
...Show more

Yep. Double-blind or bust.



Jun 15, 2022 at 07:49 PM
rdeloe
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


I visited family last week and stayed in my mother in law's place. She has a black and white picture of her husband on the wall; he passed away a few years ago.

It was made in the old country by an itinerant photographer who used a crap camera and couldn't print to save his life. It's a god-awful print. The shadows are crushed and the highlights are blown. Midtones? What midtones. And don't get me started on the quality of the paper.

But it's him as a young man, when he was dashing and healthy and confident. It's a daily memory of better times for my mum in law. Every time I see it, memories of the sick, old man I knew are replaced by an image of him in his prime.

You can probably guess where I'm going with this...



Jun 15, 2022 at 07:55 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


gdanmitchell wrote:
An interesting aspect of this thread is that the question is framed as how big do you have to print to see the difference.

There is no denying that there "is" a difference between the output of 33x44 100MP sensors and a rumored 24x36 100Mp sensor. There's no doubt that differences can be identified and measured.

But not everything that can be described and measured can be seen in a print.

In order to answer the "how big to see in prints" question we would have to, well, "see" big prints. And in order to answer it with some authority — and avoid
...Show more

Dan Wells did what you are asking. He made prints of various sizes and had people make blind judgments about what they could see and not see in the prints. The article linked in the first post even had scans of those prints, but as mentioned most of the article is behind a paywall. He reports seeing (and even non-photographers seeing) clear differences in fairly small prints. He is comparing the GFX 100s to the Sony A7r IV. All this thread is about is asking others for their own experience.



Jun 15, 2022 at 08:00 PM
macwest
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


After reading this I guess fuji went the wrong direction. They should of went to mico four thirds for better sensor output. Lol


Jun 15, 2022 at 08:26 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Steve Spencer wrote:
Dan Wells did what you are asking. He made prints of various sizes and had people make blind judgments about what they could see and not see in the prints. The article linked in the first post even had scans of those prints, but as mentioned most of the article is behind a paywall. He reports seeing (and even non-photographers seeing) clear differences in fairly small prints. He is comparing the GFX 100s to the Sony A7r IV. All this thread is about is asking others for their own experience.


As an observation, quite a bit of the thread is about the technical explanations of why folks expect the difference to be visible in prints rather than an objective look at whether real people can see differences in prints and at what sizes.

I read that someone reported that differences were supposedly apparent in 8" x 10" prints. I've been doing this for a while, and I've made a lot of prints from lots of different cameras, all the way back to film. I'm not buying that. I'm positive that, for example, no one would be able to tell which print in a set of two at that size came from a 50S and which came from a 100s as long as the capture and post processing were equalized... and that the inability to consistently and accurately identify the source image would extend to even smaller sensors and lower sensor resolutions.

I've never seen any example of prints to suggest otherwise.

There's a lot of motivated reasoning going on in these discussions. Indeed, the larger, higher MP sensor systems can produce measurable differences relative to the smaller systems. But not all things that can be measured matter, to paraphrase half of a famous quote.

One of the first times I caught on to this was when a friend brought some pairs of letter-size prints to one of our regular critique/review sessions. They were very clinical prints of a residential landscape. He handed them out and asked us, a group of people who know how to make excellent prints, to look at the pairs and comment on anything we noticed about the prints in each pair.

We looked. We looked from a distance. We looked at nose length distances. We pondered. We decided that the prints in each pair were not identical, but we weren't quite able to put our finger on what the difference was nor were we able to agree on which in each pair was better — some thought one might be while someone else thought it might be the other.

Then came the big reveal. Our friend was a few months away from departing for Antarctica to teach a couple of workshops — for Luminous Landscape, as it happens — and he knew that there would be some serious constraints on the amount of gear he could take along. So he was conducting a test to see what, if any, negative effect there might be from using lighter system. It turned out that in each pair on image had been made on his Mamiya MF camera with a 80MP Phase One back. The other print in each pair had been made with a Nikon D800e using the Nikon [I]80-400mm zoom[/I].

The prints were letter size, so we had to agree that even a group of experienced photographers and printers might find the image quality from both systems to be indistinguishable at this size.

Then he explained that he had actually gone through the process of upsizing to make 30" x 40" prints of all the samples, and we were actually looking at small letter-size area crops of the full 30" x 40" images.

We were stunned.

He took the Nikon system with the zoom lens to Antarctica. (You can see a few of the photographs from his visit here.

Again, when it comes to analysis of specifications, the logic of optics and digital sampling, and more... there is no question that a system with a larger sensor area and a higher photo site density can produce something different from smaller systems, all else being equal. Are there good reasons to use the somewhat larger 33x44 format? Indeed, there are.

However...

... I know this isn't going to make me popular in this thread, but when it comes to being able to tell from 8" x 10" prints whether the system used was a 100MP 33x44 camera, a 50MP 33x44 camera, a 50MP 24x36 camera, or even a well made print from a smaller system, there's a certain "Emperor's New Clothes" quality to the claim...

Dan



Jun 15, 2022 at 10:09 PM
rbf_
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


gdanmitchell wrote:
As an observation, quite a bit of the thread is about the technical explanations of why folks expect the difference to be visible in prints rather than an objective look at whether real people can see differences in prints and at what sizes.

I read that someone reported that differences were supposedly apparent in 8" x 10" prints. I've been doing this for a while, and I've made a lot of prints from lots of different cameras, all the way back to film. I'm not buying that. I'm positive that, for example, no one would be able to tell which
...Show more

While I will get around doing tests for myself; I see myself as neither here nor there. I'm shooting with a GFX and an X system, either there's not a huge difference in smaller prints or my X system files don't print as well as I thought or my GFX files print far better than I thought. Not sure what my personal bias actually is in this regard.




Jun 15, 2022 at 10:17 PM
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