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How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 se...

  
 
rdeloe
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Steve Spencer wrote:
You are of course right that the X-T2 will have lots of pixels for an 8 X 10. I don't think it is the number of pixels that will make a difference, but the GFX 50s and 100s will have over 2 stops more DR. I don't know for sure if that would show up in an 8 X 10, but given the right (or wrong depending on your perspective) light I would not be surprised if that showed up even in fairly small prints. I am not sure it would, but I would not be surprised if it
...Show more

I've used X-T2 and GFX 50R a lot in the same kinds of situations. To answer this question -- how much difference does the additional DR of the 50R make? -- I'd have to do some careful testing. I think you're probably right that the extra DR could make a noticeable difference, but I think that would be very scene dependent. To illustrate, my preferred light is the kind that doesn't involve a huge range of brightness values; I like bright but overcast days where I don't have to worry as much about DR. In that kind of light, I'm not sure the 50R has a photographically significant edge over the X-T2.

Steve Spencer wrote:
I agree that better ideas are the key to better prints, but I am not sure that some ideas (especially with high DR light or perhaps very low light) might not be better able to be implement with a camera with a larger sensor with more DR and better high ISO capability.


Yes, for sure -- more DR and better high ISO capability allow for work that wasn't possible before. But for me that's more of a digital versus film thing, rather than 50R versus X-T2, both of which let me do things I could not do with film.

For what it's worth (not much, I know!), I can't say that the GFX 50R has allowed me to make all kinds of new images that I could not make with my X-T2.

The principal reason I switched to the 50R from the X-T2 is it let me use a better adapter that gave me a more complete set of movements; it's not that I was unhappy with the files the X-T2 was producing. I just really hated the tilt-shift adapter I had to use.



Jun 13, 2022 at 01:28 PM
rdeloe
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


I'm confident nobody on this thread needs this... but by coincidence one of John Paul Caponigro's newsletters landed in my inbox this morning, and it was about printing. He provides a link to a short video where he works through some printing-related topics that have come up already in this thread.




Jun 13, 2022 at 01:53 PM
chez
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Steve Spencer wrote:
The thing is Dan, I participated in that test and I did see consistent differences even at much smaller sizes than you claim and as I have said previously the test was very insensitive to matters that are important to me. The light was very flat, so the scene had very low DR. One of the huge differences between the Canon 5DsR and the Fuji GF 50s is the base ISO DR. Photons to Photos measures the differences in DR at base ISO as just over 2 stops (i.e., the Fuji can handle over 4 times as bright of
...Show more

Shooting portraits, do you actually care for an extra stop in DR?



Jun 13, 2022 at 02:44 PM
bobby350z
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


chez wrote:
Shooting portraits, do you actually care for an extra stop in DR?


Yet one needs FF based on the previous discussions.



Jun 13, 2022 at 03:12 PM
bobby350z
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Steve, I am no good as you in manual focus. For me the main thing for GFX100s was the AF. With 80mm f1.7 the eye-AF works much better on GFX100s than that on the GFX50s.


Jun 13, 2022 at 03:14 PM
JimKasson
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


You won't see aliasing in a print if any of the below are true:

The subject doesn't have significant detail over the Nyquist frequency.

The high-frequency detail isn't in focus.

The lens is stopped down beyond f/11.

The aliased frequencies are high enough that they are reduced to insignificance by the downsampling.

You're too far from the print.

Your vision is mad enough that you can't resolve the aliased material.

You don't know what the original subject looked like/You are insensitive to aliasing.

If the images that I see posted on the web are any indication, there are a lot of people in that last category.

Jim

OBTW, there are some people who apparently think that aliasing actually enhances images -- remember the people who liked the fat pixel MF cameras?



Jun 13, 2022 at 04:54 PM
mjm6
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
No, I['m saying that the 100S files will have less aliasing.




That is opposite what you said in the first post on this thread, so can you explain why the 100S camera has more ailasing but it will show less aliasing in the print?

(I and I think Steve also took what you said initially to mean that the 100S is mre prone to aliasing artifacts, but I think you mis-stated in the initial post that it will have more (but I think you meant that it will have less).

Edited on Jun 13, 2022 at 05:39 PM · View previous versions



Jun 13, 2022 at 05:00 PM
rbf_
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


What I got from the article is that the author is saying that when you print using very high DPI printers (600-700 DPI) and optimize your workflow you can see the resolution differences easily. I read about the ImagePrint Black software he was using and I recall it's for replacing the default printer drivers with theirs to get higher quality prints(It's not cheap either). So I guess any test evaluating print sharpness would need to consider those parameters.

I was actually going to try this software out but the area I had planned for my printing area got turned into a home gym right after Covid lockdown.

Edited on Jun 13, 2022 at 07:09 PM · View previous versions



Jun 13, 2022 at 05:14 PM
molson
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
You don't know what the original subject looked like/You are insensitive to aliasing.

If the images that I see posted on the web are any indication, there are a lot of people in that last category.



How can you judge that if you don't know what the original subject looked like? Unless it's an image of some sort of standard test chart, you would be in that last category by default.



Jun 13, 2022 at 05:19 PM
JimKasson
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


mjm6 wrote:
That is opposite what you said in the first post on this thread, so can you explain why the 100S camera has more ailasing but it will show less aliasing in the print?

(I and I think Steve also took what you said initially to mean that the 100S is mre prone to aliasing artifacts, but I think you mis-stated in the initial post that it will have more (but I think you meant that it will have less).


The GFX 100x will show less aliasing than the 50x. Sorry for the original error, now corrected.



Jun 13, 2022 at 06:48 PM
 


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JimKasson
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


molson wrote:
How can you judge that if you don't know what the original subject looked like? Unless it's an image of some sort of standard test chart, you would be in that last category by default.


Let’s say you take a picture of a screen door. And let’s say there is moiré in the final image. Most people who have seen actual screen doors would know the moiré is an artifact.




Jun 13, 2022 at 06:52 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


chez wrote:
Shooting portraits, do you actually care for an extra stop in DR?


Sometimes, like when I am shooting backlit portraits it can help or at least I think it could. What comes with that extra stop of DR, generally, is also an extra stop of performance at high ISO as well. That of course can be really useful for indoor portraits when the light is low and flash isn't easy to use.



Jun 13, 2022 at 07:25 PM
molson
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
Let’s say you take a picture of a screen door. And let’s say there is moiré in the final image. Most people who have seen actual screen doors would know the moiré is an artifact.



I thought moiré was caused by a repeating high-frequency pattern that a demosaicing algorithm cannot discern correctly. Are you suggesting that aliasing is just moiré ?




Jun 13, 2022 at 07:32 PM
JimKasson
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


molson wrote:
I thought moiré was caused by a repeating high-frequency pattern that a demosaicing algorithm cannot discern correctly. Are you suggesting that aliasing is just moiré ?




Moiré is not usually the fault of the demosaicing algorithm, but rather the result of spatial frequencies projected onto the sensor at frequencies above the Nyquist frequency.

I am not suggesting at all that aliasing is just moiré. All moiré generated in capture is caused by aliasing. Not all aliasing results in moiré. Moiré is a pretty obvious aliasing artifact. Not all aliasing artifacts are as obvious.

Jim




Jun 13, 2022 at 10:52 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
The pixel aperture of the GFX 100x and GFX 50x is the same when measured in micrometers.


Jim, what exactly is “pixel aperture”?



Jun 13, 2022 at 11:11 PM
JimKasson
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Jesse Evans wrote:
Jim, what exactly is “pixel aperture”?


It's an approximation of the area of one sensor pixel that is sensitive to light. A smaller pixel aperture causes sharper images and more aliasing. A larger pixel aperture causes images that are less sharp and less aliasing. It is an approximation, because pixel response is not binary; it usually is less towards the periphery of the nominally light-sensitive area.

With the advent of microlenses, the term effective pixel aperture has come into usage. That is a measure of the response of the sensor itself, together with the CFA and the microlens array. It is also talked about as if it were binary, but is, like the response of the sensor itself, more complicated than that.

An ideal sensor with 100% effective fill factor would have a pixel aperture equal to a square one pixel pitch on a side.

Background:

https://www.pco.de/fileadmin/user_upload/knowledge_base/kb_pixel_size_sensitivity_105.pdf

Jim




Jun 13, 2022 at 11:19 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
It's an approximation of the area of one sensor pixel that is sensitive to light. A smaller pixel aperture causes sharper images and more aliasing. A larger pixel aperture causes images that are less sharp and less aliasing. It is an approximation, because pixel response is not binary; it usually is less towards the periphery of the nominally light-sensitive area.

With the advent of microlenses, the term effective pixel aperture has come into usage. That is a measure of the response of the sensor itself, together with the CFA and the microlens array. It is also talked about as if
...Show more

Okay, so I assume based on this explanation that you’re saying they have the same pixel aperture because the increased light gathering surface area per pixel of the BSI sensor in the GFX100(s) offsets the decrease in pixel pitch in comparison to the FSI sensor in the GFX 50(S / R)?



Jun 13, 2022 at 11:36 PM
JimKasson
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Jesse Evans wrote:
Okay, so I assume based on this explanation that you’re saying they have the same pixel aperture because the increased light gathering surface area per pixel of the BSI sensor in the GFX100(s) offsets the decrease in pixel pitch in comparison to the FSI sensor in the GFX 50(S / R)?


I am saying that the fill factor of the GFX 50x is less than that of the GFX 100x by so much that the two camera’s pixels have the same light sensitive area.The GFX 50 x cameras have an unusually low fill factor because of their undersized microlenses.

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/fujifilm-gfx-100-sharpness-compared-to-gfx-50s/




Jun 13, 2022 at 11:52 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


JimKasson wrote:
I am saying that the fill factor of the GFX 50x is less than that of the GFX 100x by so much that the two camera’s pixels have the same light sensitive area.The GFX 50 x cameras have an unusually low fill factor because of their undersized microlenses.

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/fujifilm-gfx-100-sharpness-compared-to-gfx-50s/



Thanks for taking the time to clarify the terms and the reasoning. Pixel aperture isn’t a very Googleable term.



Jun 13, 2022 at 11:57 PM
JimKasson
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · How big do you need to print to see the advantage of a 100 MP 44 X 33 sensor vs. FF 35mm?


Jesse Evans wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to clarify the terms and the reasoning. Pixel aperture isn’t a very Googleable term.


This may be more minutia than you want:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59722467

Unfortunately, the term can also mean a technique for obtaining depth information. Since it's been coopted, I'll probably have to find another term.




Jun 14, 2022 at 09:24 AM
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