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airfrogusmc
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Competition Entries ...


It's not what I consider this or that it is what history has chosen to call them. They were documentary photographers and they were all artists and all created art.


May 29, 2022 at 01:36 PM
Camperjim
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Competition Entries ...


We can all point the camera and document what is within view. The great "documentary" photographers mentioned also had creativity, intention to their work and certainly communicated aesthetic, emotional and intellectual content.


May 29, 2022 at 01:38 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Competition Entries ...


Yes they did. But they were still documentary photographers. I believe I said in my post and this is exactly what I said
"I can say that documentary photography like the work of W Eugene Smith, Bruce Davidson and Robert Frank (to name just 3) certainly can be art.".

So I said "can be art." Never said all were.



May 29, 2022 at 01:46 PM
EverLearning
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Competition Entries ...


airfrogusmc wrote:
It's not what I consider this or that it is what history has chosen to call them. They were documentary photographers and they were all artists and all created art.


"History" calls nothing anything. It is people looking at history, applying their own life experiences, biases and perceptions to label something a certain way. Sometimes with time, or through discussion with different groups of people, those labels change or differ. Just as the interpretation of the word "documentary" can differ.



May 29, 2022 at 02:11 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Competition Entries ...


You're right you got it all figured out. I would highly recommend that you spend some time studying the history of photography. They best cure for ignorance is knowledge.

BYE!!!!



May 29, 2022 at 02:14 PM
grandmas
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Competition Entries ...


I came to my conclusion many years ago. I don’t care if photography is considered art or documentary, I do photography, because I enjoy it, and I have no desire to line the walls of a gallery. Others need to decide what they want from photography, it will be different for everyone. For those seeking some kind of recognition, it will probably require some extra work or study.


May 29, 2022 at 02:16 PM
EverLearning
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Competition Entries ...


airfrogusmc wrote:
You're right you got it all figured out. I would highly recommend that you spend some time studying the history of photography. They best cure for ignorance is knowledge.

BYE!!!!


THIS is why you don't post to the critique forum. Not only will you "defend" your photos against anybody who dares provide a critique beyond "amazing" and "wonderful" but you will likewise "defend" your opinion to your last breath against anybody who dares hold an opinion different than yours. Right or wrong, or more likely somewhere in between, you, I and everybody else who posts here is entitled to hold an opinion (AND should be free to do so without attack); whether it is homogeneous to the masses or charts a path distinct from the others.

BTW #1: calling people names is not "defending" your position.

BTW #2: a photo of elephant dung or a cancerous lung will be documentary no matter how you try to spin it as art.



May 29, 2022 at 04:34 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Competition Entries ...


Where/when have I ever called anyone names? And if you read back I was responding to someone implying that documentary photography is not art. And I showed examples of when it is and but never said all documentary type images are art.

I wasn't responding to anything to do with me when I was talking about defending ones work but some other recent attacks on others that only stated why they did what they did and their intent. I then watched them get attacked from all kinds of folks. And a lot of what was being said had little to do with the image itself. In a real critique there is real back and forth. The person that was attacked quit posting on FM for a good long while.

And where have I ever defended elephant dung is art. Show me. Ya can't because it doesn't exist.

Learning is an ongoing process. You got time but the mind has to be open for that to happen.



May 29, 2022 at 04:56 PM
EverLearning
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Competition Entries ...


You are (mostly) reading/rereading your posts well but not the posts of others.

First, perhaps you think "the best cure for ignorance is knowledge" is a general statement not directed at anyone (me) in particular, but given your sarcasm and "recommendation", it clearly is targeted name calling, as is implying a person has a closed mind because they don't share your view of something (your last sentence directly above).

I was the one that made the comment about documentary photography not being art. Rather than carefully reading my posts and understanding what I mean by "documentary", which I clarified/elaborated at the bottom of page 3:

"Depends on what you consider "documentary". Purely from the perspective of documenting something (text books, research papers, autopsies, mug shots, etc), it would be a stretch to say those are art."

You chose to apply your own definition of the word "documentary" and then take offence to what I said.

I was/am speaking of documentary purpose but you chose to ignore that, apply a straw man's argument (change my point into something I can't defend) and then attack.

For what it is worth, yes I do believe a "documentary show" (video and photos, accompanied by voice-over and (usually) music) or "documentary book" (a collection of photos documenting something (such as the life of a notable person) can be artistic; even very much so. But that was not the context of my use of the word "documentary".

And for what it is worth, I don't believe a proper "back and forth" in a critique consists of attacking the one giving the critique (directly or indirectly, bluntly or subtly) or vigorously defending the "merit" of the creation. It is fair to explain the intent of the photo, the reason it was composed, cropped, post-processed in a certain way, etc so that those critiquing it can provide further input to the photographer that may help them achieve their goal. The photographer is free to incorporate all/some/none of the feedback into the way they capture and process future photos. I have received feedback that I haven't agreed with from time to time, but it still makes me stop and think. I am grateful for all feedback and if I ever express something other than that, it is a failure on my part to respect the time and effort somebody put in to giving me that feedback.

I hope that clarifies my position. If that is not acceptable to you, then it is what it is.



May 29, 2022 at 05:24 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Competition Entries ...


In a real critue it means clearly stating why you did what you did and if someone states something you do not agree withj clearly stating why you disagree. Thats not attacking thats discussing. I never said that your position is not valid to you. I know it is. Doesn't mean your right. Again if you go back and read what I wrote I commented that there is documentary photography that is art. And I didn't say that all documentary images are art. And history has shown that. You seem to have taken exception to that statement but that statement is true.

And BTW we are seeing in real time why forum crits do not usually work.



May 29, 2022 at 05:35 PM
 


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Camperjim
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Competition Entries ...


I guess this exchange shows how easy it is to be misunderstood on the internet (and often in person also). I suspect that is part of the reason that critiques often don't work very well. Egos become involved especially when discussing our creations. This is also the reason I believe it best to avoid defenses, arguments, explanations. When someone offers a critique or simple comments, I try to avoid further discussion that might be viewed as defensive. If you don't like the opinions and advice, it is typically best just to move on.
Just sayin'.



May 29, 2022 at 05:41 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Competition Entries ...


Jim in a face to face crit you have to admit misunderstandings get ironed out pretty quickly. Like Oh ok now I get what you are saying. Not the misunderstanding and digging in of heels that can happen on in internet-land. I think for everyone to gain from a crit everyone needs to know intent of the creator and if someone says something that isn't relevant or really off base it should get ironed out for everyones benefit both creator and the one critiquing Everyone can learn and grow from that experience. I know I did/do.


May 29, 2022 at 05:50 PM
Camperjim
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Competition Entries ...


Maybe, sometimes but I think often it does not matter to the viewer what the maker intended.

Pollock's action painting at first glance can seem to be just wild, random splatters, streaks and drips of paint. Certain that is the popular conception. Spend a few minutes live in front of one of his paintings and you quickly realize much more was going on. What was his intent, what was going on in his head beyond the drugs? Does it matter? Whatever the unknown intent, it added a power that the interested viewer can feel. No stories needed. Any defense or explanations would be as useless as trying to explain a joke.



May 29, 2022 at 06:35 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Competition Entries ...


Well we've talked at length about this before but if you know what the creator is trying to say you can then discuss how effective he was or maybe wasn't at achieving that. When I was in school it was the all of our crits starte and I had a lot of crits in college. You figure 3 photography and or art classes per semester and a crti a week for each class well you get the drift.

And how would Pollacks work do in a photogrpahy online crit ha ha. I can only imagine.

This has gotten way off track so I stand by my comments on p3 #8.

Edited on May 29, 2022 at 07:41 PM · View previous versions



May 29, 2022 at 06:50 PM
Camperjim
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Competition Entries ...


I will give you that intent is often very important. I think my opinion is based heavily on attending a critique class that worked extremely well. Photographs were presented anonymously. After discussion and opinions and observations and critique, if you want that word, then the photographer had a opportunity to point out what they saw and why they made the photograph.

The give and take critique groups I have been involved with have generally failed. The friendly discussions end up being too friendly and degenerate into likes. Everyone seems to be happy that way but learning is less effective.



May 29, 2022 at 07:30 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Competition Entries ...


You were just in the wrong groups then. In college there is a professors with an MFA keeping things productive and asking the right questions and keeping the crit on track. You can have an intelligent crit and discussion with it remaining freindly. In fact thats the way it should remain. The crits I'm involved in are very helpful. In the 3 last exhibits it helped me with the editing process among many other things.

And if intent wasn't important to the entire process, this brings us back to an artist statement, then those wouldn't exist.

And again this was discussed at great length a long time ago. If you are going to be in an exhibit you will need a relevant and informative artist statement. Thats just the way it is.



May 29, 2022 at 07:40 PM
RustyBug
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Competition Entries ...


I think it is important to know what, why, how one approached a given piece ... with credence given to the command and control in achieving the intent / voice / message. The earlier point about effectiveness in achieving that is prudent ... whether that be to create an aesthetically pleasing image, or to capture a historic moment in time, or to convey a philosophical message or to stimulate an emotional response. (imo) there is an art (skill / talent) in doing any of them ... i.e. artfully done. Of course, that leaves a wide berth.

To which, I know that many things I present are exactly what I would have them to be by intent / voice. Then, I received feedback that suggests the effectiveness of my intent was not on par with what I had hoped for. I can still like it, and may retain it as presented (or change things). But, the feedback (imo) doesn't tell me I'm right or wrong ... just how effective I was with a particular audience. Sometimes, my intent is for a whisper, and it is little heard. Hmmm, comes with the territory ... maybe I speak a little louder, next time. Or maybe, I accept that only a few will hear the softness of the message.

Even within FM ... with the amount of cross-posting into PC vs. Presentation vs. Gear Forums, the audience can be varied ... and (go figure) so is the reported effectiveness across different audiences. The world outside of FM ... only more so. For me, I try to take into account the varied audience reception, as I consider what it is that I want to convey.

As it turns out, the OP aspect of this thread was to take and present images to a different audience for their feedback, regarding effectiveness. Well, the comp may not be a great gauge of effectiveness, but my point is that the differences in audiences does present a factor.

Case in point, a killer sunset can garner rave review by one audience ... and then be a yawner for just another sunset by another audience. Conversely, a moody low key image can receive crickets in one audience, and get strong favor with another audience.

Which takes me to the point regarding frame of reference, not only in our experience to draw upon for recognition ... but also in the expectations / training of what is deemed to constitute "art".

How it plays in Peoria, may be very different from how it plays on Broadway, or in France or Japan or Africa, or among friends ... and that can be friends who "don't get it" either. Qualifying what is / isn't art ... well, as the saying of beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... maybe that extends to the definition of art is likewise in the eye of the beholder.

Now, to get the beholder to think like the creator ... or is that like getting the tail to wag the dog.




May 29, 2022 at 07:51 PM
Camperjim
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Competition Entries ...


Kent, your images are often more than first appearance with an intent that can be a "whisper". I do notice that you rarely if ever mention the intent in advance and you leave your viewers to interpret as they see fit. I think that matches what I am saying. It is not necessary and often not helpful to give the viewer explanations in advance or even at all.


May 29, 2022 at 08:12 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Competition Entries ...


Found this Kent

What are the 3 parts of an artist statement?

What information does an artist's statement need to include? There are three elements to consider: the “how,” the “what,” and the “why.” There should be enough information in your artist statement that someone can begin to imagine the art that you make without having it in front of them. Jul 23, 2016

From Jackson Pollack
https://www.aaa.si.edu/collections/items/detail/jackson-pollock-artists-statement-15420




May 29, 2022 at 09:15 PM
RustyBug
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Competition Entries ...


Camperjim wrote:
Kent, your images are often more than first appearance with an intent that can be a "whisper". I do notice that you rarely if ever mention the intent in advance and you leave your viewers to interpret as they see fit. I think that matches what I am saying. It is not necessary and often not helpful to give the viewer explanations in advance or even at all.


Jim,

Yes, I do "withhold" intent initially. That is so that I don't influence people ... and thus learn of how "effective" it was or wasn't, based on their (hopefully) unbiased take on things. Once folks have had a chance to digest on their own, and give input, then I let the cat out of the bag, which may (or not) proffer additional dialogue.

But, I think there is a distinction to be made with regard to what is posted here in PC ... it is a "learning" forum, i.e. the basis for the critique aspect. So, it involves (for me) a degree of not giving advance info / insight, so to learn from the responses.

OTOH, I do think that when a piece is on exhibit, if there is something of insight or intent ... it can be helpful to include that for some instances.

As but one image that comes to mind, is the "ghost" image I shot in an empty parking lot ... speaking to the absence of the retail customers, at the onset of the Covid-19 sequestrations. At the time of presentation, it was a social frame of awareness that the customers had disappeared. Now, a scant two years later, that context is a bit lost if the image is presented without any intent or voice or backstory into the intent or voice.

I'm not sure, but I think it was in that shot that I embarked on a bit of a re-direction, of sorts. It may not have been a well received image. But it kinda feels like that was a bit of a turning point for me ... no matter.

Reminds me of the Pulitzer Exhibit (a MUST see) ... as powerful as those images were, they all had accompanying statements to give context. In that regard, the image was not intended to be an interpretive guessing game, left to the viewer. Rather, it was a powerful statement being made by the photographer ... the information providing accompanying clarity that served to further empower the non-verbal message with a verbal message. The power of those images was so strong that the exhibit had a warning prior to entry.

So, to that point ... I think different pieces, and different intent may / may not include accompanying intent ... depending on how much the artist wants to leave the interpretation to the viewer, vs. making a statement to the viewer. Imo, it kinda depends.



Edited on May 29, 2022 at 10:06 PM · View previous versions



May 29, 2022 at 09:56 PM
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