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Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

e6filmuser
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

These flowers are short-lived and it was a windy day, The pair of images with the best focus have the petal lowest in the frame slightly cropped.

I tried repeatedly to get everything in focus at f11, as is my practice with m4/3. I got just one usable image but finally had to use f14. 1/125 at ISO 200, hand held.

The stereos are crosseye.

Harold

Harold Gough 2022

Apr 24, 2022 at 07:58 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

e6filmuser wrote:
These flowers are short-lived and it was a windy day, The pair of images with the best focus have the petal lowest in the frame slightly cropped.

I tried repeatedly to get everything in focus at f11, as is my practice with m4/3. I got just one usable image but finally had to use f14. 1/125 at ISO 200, hand held.

The stereos are crosseye.

Harold

Keep in mind that f/11 on m4/3rds is the equivalent of f/22 in depth of field. Windy days are tough for flower photography. If there aren't sufficient pauses in the wind you can only do so much. My major advice is that the composition from straight on top is rarely the best. It is a lovely flower.

Apr 24, 2022 at 09:19 AM

e6filmuser
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

Steve Spencer wrote:
Keep in mind that f/11 on m4/3rds is the equivalent of f/22 in depth of field. Windy days are tough for flower photography. If there aren't sufficient pauses in the wind you can only do so much. My major advice is that the composition from straight on top is rarely the best. It is a lovely flower.

I'm well aware of the difference in format, which I why I rarely use FF for macro.

I wanted to get the stamens fully in the image, for their fine detail, and from +/- the top was the only option.

Harold

Apr 24, 2022 at 09:48 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

e6filmuser wrote:
I'm well aware of the difference in format, which I why I rarely use FF for macro.

I wanted to get the stamens fully in the image, for their fine detail, and from +/- the top was the only option.

Harold

Ok, but then I am not sure why you are worried about going to f/14 or even f/16 at least? I often use a 44 X 33 sensor for macro and that means smaller apertures are certainly considered. I like large sensors in general and especially for macro, I see no disadvantage of the larger sensor, but it does mean that you have to use smaller apertures some times.

The other option is of course cropping which is all the small sensor is anyway. If you would have shot this at f/11 and cropped to an m4/3rds size, then of course you would have had the same depth of field as m4/3rds at f/11. You would have been using the larger sensor to shoot m4/3rds, but if that is what you like that is certainly possible with the larger sensor.

Apr 24, 2022 at 10:51 AM

e6filmuser
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

Steve Spencer wrote:
Ok, but then I am not sure why you are worried about going to f/14 or even f/16 at least? I often use a 44 X 33 sensor for macro and that means smaller apertures are certainly considered. I like large sensors in general and especially for macro, I see no disadvantage of the larger sensor, but it does mean that you have to use smaller apertures some times.

The other option is of course cropping which is all the small sensor is anyway. If you would have shot this at f/11 and cropped to an m4/3rds size, then...Show more →

So, I might have cropped off all the petals?

Who says I was "worried"?

I presented the image at the aperture I chose.

If you want to see what I have done for decades with macro visit Macro World. I haven't done many flowers recently for seasonal reasons.

Harold

Apr 24, 2022 at 11:50 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

e6filmuser wrote:
So, I might have cropped off all the petals?

Who says I was "worried"?

I presented the image at the aperture I chose.

If you want to see what I have done for decades with macro visit Macro World. I haven't done many flowers recently for seasonal reasons.

Harold

No what I was suggesting is that you could have framed much looser and cropped to m4/3rds size. That is always available on a larger sensor and will give you exactly the same look as shooting m4/3rds. What you said is you tried repeatedly to get everything in focus at f/11. I am not sure why you would do that. You are going to get the same depth of field as using f/5.6 on m4/3rds. You could have used a smaller aperture and used the whole sensor or your could have framed loosely so that you could crop to m4/3rds size and used f/11. Either would have gotten you the depth of field you needed. I assumed you tried to use f/11 and still get everything in focus because you were concerned about quality if you went with a smaller aperture. I am sorry if that assumption was wrong, but I still can't see why you adopted that strategy.

Apr 24, 2022 at 12:19 PM

e6filmuser
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

Steve Spencer wrote:
No what I was suggesting is that you could have framed much looser and cropped to m4/3rds size. That is always available on a larger sensor and will give you exactly the same look as shooting m4/3rds. What you said is you tried repeatedly to get everything in focus at f/11. I am not sure why you would do that. You are going to get the same depth of field as using f/5.6 on m4/3rds. You could have used a smaller aperture and used the whole sensor or your could have framed loosely so that you could crop to...Show more →

You missed that I said I had one perfect focus with f11, which I why I persisted with it. I wanted to show the entire depth of the flower and no more. I use f13, 14, 16 on other occasions.

I see no point in investing in a large sensor only to dump large portions of images. Cropping gives the same result as a longer focal length which I do not want. I chose the lens to give its particular perspective. All of the images, when framed had space around them. When the wind blows it flattens at least some of the petals so that the flower now takes up more space. In some cases this coincided with opening the shutter.

The flower was in bright sunlight, with the petals casting shadows over it. Harsh sunlight being not ideal for flowers anyway, I decided to moderate it. I opened up one of those large umbrellas you see at sports events. That was controlled by my left hand and arm, leaving me one-handed to control the camera, slight support coming from the handle of the umbrella. It was just possible to get a direct, "from above", but actually from the side, shot. Keeping that in place while waiting for gusts of wind to abate was very tiring. For any other angle I would have needed a few more limbs, not least to keep the flower and immediate foliage shaded.

In any case, mentioning the aperture set is only half the story, as we are dealing with effective apertures and those will vary with the magnification for any given one selected.

In 40+ years of shooting macro, mostly daily in recent years, I have picked up the basics!

Harold

Apr 24, 2022 at 12:47 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

e6filmuser wrote:
You missed that I said I had one perfect focus with f11, which I why I persisted with it. I wanted to show the entire depth of the flower and no more. I use f13, 14, 16 on other occasions.

I see no point in investing in a large sensor only to dump large portions of images. Cropping gives the same result as a longer focal length which I do not want. I chose the lens to give its particular perspective. All of the images, when framed had space around them. When the wind blows it flattens at least some of...Show more →

Hi Harold,

Sorry we got off on the wrong foot. I guess I didn't and still don't get the references to m4/3rds in your posts. I like big sensors because they give me lots of options. When I want shallow depth of field. I can get it. Like in the first shot below. I shot that with a FF 35mm camera with a 100mm lens at f/2 and there just is no m4/3rds 50 f/1 lens that would get me that look. The second shot is even more extreme with a 135mm f/2 lens shot at f/2 on a 44 X 33 sensor (note the EXIF data on the lens is wrong I forgot to change the lens designation when I changed lenses). I don't always want such shallow depth of field and often don't like in the third example below, but I have had no problem getting deeper depth of field with a bigger sensor and bigger sensors aren't even that expensive anymore. The wonderful FF 35mm sensor in your A7r III can be had for about $1,000 and the very similar sensor in the A7r II can be had for as little as $600. Even the 44 X 33 sensor I have can be had for $3,000 and there are some great macro lenses for it that are cheap and you can use many FF and APS-C lenses with that camera too. Anyway, different strokes for different folks. Personally, I moved away from m4/3rds for my macro shooting about a decade ago and never looked back and I am very happy with my approach.

Canon EOS 5D Mark II Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 2/100 ZE lens 100mm f/2.0 1/800s 100 ISO 0.0 EV

GFX 50S 120.0 mm lens 120mm f/1.0 1/220s 400 ISO 0.0 EV

NIKON Z 7 110.0 mm f/2.5 lens 110mm f/5.6 1/320s 64 ISO 0.0 EV

Apr 24, 2022 at 02:11 PM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

Apr 26, 2022 at 06:06 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

AmbientMike wrote:
I tend to prefer the aps sensors too, for macro and have enjoyed the advantages of m4/3 in the past as well. Like you I just don't see the point of cropping huge files. And tend to use f/16+ like people used to do more often on film it seems

In my view no real advantages of m4/3rds although it is a totally workable format and I agree that stopping down especially for these closer shots can be a good thing. Keep in mind with most modern camera cropping doesn't have to make huge files. The cropping can often be displayed in the EVF and done in camera if you want.

Apr 27, 2022 at 02:31 PM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

Steve Spencer wrote:
In my view no real advantages of m4/3rds

It's generally a lot easier to use 1:1 on m4/3 than 2x magnification on ff.

Apr 27, 2022 at 05:07 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

AmbientMike wrote:
It's generally a lot easier to use 1:1 on m4/3 than 2x magnification on ff.

1:1 is 1:1 on both m4/3rds and FF. 2X on FF is not the same as 1:1 on m4/3rds and if you think it is that explains why you are confused that m4/3rds has an advantage.

For an excellent discussion of why there is no advantage to the smaller sensor see this link:

https://www.allanwallsphotography.com/blog/2021/6/2/sensor-size-amp-magnification

Apr 27, 2022 at 05:45 PM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

Steve Spencer wrote:
1:1 is 1:1 on both m4/3rds and FF. 2X on FF is not the same as 1:1 on m4/3rds and if you think it is that explains why you are confused that m4/3rds has an advantage.

For an excellent discussion of why there is no advantage to the smaller sensor see this link:

https://www.allanwallsphotography.com/blog/2021/6/2/sensor-size-amp-magnification

No Steve. I'm not confused.

A quote from the blog you posted

"For example, if your favorite macro lens is a Tamron 90 mm F2.8, a true one to one macro lens, and if your favorite subjects are ladybirds, a crop frame camera may be a better choice for composing your shots. That is because a 10-12mm subject will cover approximately half of the frame in your composition. That's close, but not too close. Now say you use the same lens on a full frame camera, the insect would suddenly look very small in the frame. Presuming that the insect has not grown since you took the first photograph, it will still be 12 mm on your sensor, it will just take up less than a third of the image instead of almost a half."

Apr 27, 2022 at 09:38 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

AmbientMike wrote:
No Steve. I'm not confused.

A quote from the blog you posted

"For example, if your favorite macro lens is a Tamron 90 mm F2.8, a true one to one macro lens, and if your favorite subjects are ladybirds, a crop frame camera may be a better choice for composing your shots. That is because a 10-12mm subject will cover approximately half of the frame in your composition. That's close, but not too close. Now say you use the same lens on a full frame camera, the insect would suddenly look very small in the frame. Presuming that the insect has not...Show more →

Well you seem to be further confused because that quote you just made is about composition and not magnification. The quote is irrelevant to the point you seem not to appreciate (that 1:1 is 1:1 in any format and 1:1 on FF 35mm is not equivalent to 2X on m4/3rds) and the site conclusively demonstrated that you got the point about magnification wrong. Anyone can follow the link and see how you got that point about magnification wrong,

But you seem to be even further confused because you don't recognize how even this point about composition that you quote no longer applies because it only pertains to DSLRs in which you cannot zoom in in the viewfinder for composition. The problem that is discussed in that quote with regard to composition is no longer a problem with mirrorless FF cameras because you can fix that compositional problem by zooming in which of course you couldn't do with a DSLR. Somehow you seem to have missed that point too even though the quote really has nothing to do with the previous point you got wrong.

Apr 28, 2022 at 12:06 AM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

Steve Spencer wrote:
Well you seem to be further confused because that quote you just made is about composition and not magnification. The quote is irrelevant to the point you seem not to appreciate (that 1:1 is 1:1 in any format and 1:1 on FF 35mm is not equivalent to 2X on m4/3rds) and the site conclusively demonstrated that you got the point about magnification wrong. Anyone can follow the link and see how you got that point about magnification wrong,

But you seem to be even further confused because you don't recognize how even this point about composition that you quote no...Show more →

Except I didn't get anything wrong.

And you seem very confused.

You just need to realize some of us have been doing this for years. Nothing you mentioned is news. And the calculations aren't particularly hard. Now you basically seem to be arguing with the blog you posted a link to.

Apr 28, 2022 at 11:20 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

AmbientMike wrote:
Except I didn't get anything wrong.

And you seem very confused.

You just need to realize some of us have been doing this for years. Nothing you mentioned is news. And the calculations aren't particularly hard. Now you basically seem to be arguing with the blog you posted a link to.

Uh, no I am not arguing with the site I mentioned. I just understand what they were saying in the part you quoted and realize that is it no longer relevant with mirrorless cameras. You should be able to understand that. With DSLRs you have a fixed viewfinder magnification. That gave DSLRs with an APS-C sensor higher magnification in the viewfinder than FF DSLR cameras. With modern mirrorless FF cameras you can have a FF view in the EVF or you can press a button and have the APS-C view in the EVF. There is no longer a compositional advantage for APS-C cameras. You will literally have the same view with a FF mirrorless camera in APS-C mode that you will with an APS-C mirrorless camera. I am not arguing with the article I cited. It was true when it was written. I just understand that things have changed and it is no longer true.

I have also been doing this for a lot of years. I have been on FM for 16 years now and I was doing photography for over 20 years before that. So you are not the only one who has been doing this for a lot of years. The number of years that people have been doing photography is not the issue here. The issue is you got the math wrong when you talked about 1:1 on m4/3rds being like 2X magnification on FF. That is a matter of math and yes you are wrong whether you can recognize that or not. 1:1 on m4/3rds and 1:1 on FF both mean the image is the same size on the sensor as it is in real life. The magnification is exactly the same. 2X on FF would mean the image is twice the size it is in real life on the sensor. That simply is very different from 1:1 on m4/3rds. In math it is as simple as 2 is not the same as 1. There is no advantage of m4/3rds and it does not create extra magnification. The site I linked demonstrates that conclusively whether you can recognize it or not.

Then you compounded this mistake by not understanding that the point about composing images is different with mirrorless cameras making a second and very different mistake. No, Mike you were wrong twice and clearly wrong, but I doubt you will admit these obvious errors. They will be apparent to all who want to think about these issues, however, so I won't comment on it any more. Suffice it to say, however, none of what you said suggests an advantage for small sensors for macro work,

Apr 28, 2022 at 11:59 AM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

From the blog you posted a link to:

"But none of this means that a photographer cannot have a legitimate preference for the smaller sensor size cameras. It is perfectly reasonable to prefer composing macro subjects on a smaller field of view. Knowing that these images will be blown up to make prints is of little concern, as the resolution of the sensor on even the least expensive camera today, is more than enough for a sharp image at normal print sizes."

Apr 28, 2022 at 01:12 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

AmbientMike wrote:
From the blog you posted a link to:

"But none of this means that a photographer cannot have a legitimate preference for the smaller sensor size cameras. It is perfectly reasonable to prefer composing macro subjects on a smaller field of view. Knowing that these images will be blown up to make prints is of little concern, as the resolution of the sensor on even the least expensive camera today, is more than enough for a sharp image at normal print sizes."

Read what I wrote above that was with DSLRs when viewfinder magnification was fixed. It was true then, but no longer applies. That said, a preference for a smaller sensor size for macro is reasonable just as long as people don't think that preference is based on an advantage of a small sensor size, because there is no advantage. I am all for people exercising their preferences, just so they don't make false claims that they hold those preferences based on advantages that don't exist.

Apr 28, 2022 at 01:39 PM

Sanlameer
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

I am also confused.

If a full frame en crop sensor camera have sensors of the nearly the same resolution like the on 5DM4 and 90D the following would be true:

1. Each photo would be 30 Mega pixels
2. The sensor of the 90 D would be 1.6 smaller than the full full frame 5D
3. The subject size stays the same but the relative size of the sensors are NOT the same.
4. Canon has EF and EFS lenses. The Ef lens has a bigger image circle than the EFS to compensate for the difference in sensor size.
5. When an EF lens is used on a crop sensor, only the central part of the image is used and the subject appears larger on the crop frame. If an EFS lens is used the image size is "corrected" for sensor size.
6. Alan makes this fact clear, several times when he refers to certain objective microscope lenses image circle too small for full frame and cause vignetting but sufficient to cover a crop sensor.

Taking all this into consideration: An EFS lens on a crop frame camera and an EF lens on a full frame
camera will give the same size object in the view finder and on the sensor.

Using a EF lens (full frame lens) on a crop frame sensor camera will give an apparent enlargement determined by the sensor size of the specific camera-Canon is 1.6 Using a microscope objective even more important because the image circle size provided by the microscope objective might not provide sufficient cover for the full frame sensor.

The size of the image on the camera screen can be adjusted in live view to the photographers taste and is much less dependent on the lens, sensor size.

Please help me understand better,

Regards,
Ben

Apr 30, 2022 at 10:50 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

Sanlameer wrote:
I am also confused.

If a full frame en crop sensor camera have sensors of the nearly the same resolution like the on 5DM4 and 90D the following would be true:

1. Each photo would be 30 Mega pixels
2. The sensor of the 90 D would be 1.6 smaller than the full full frame 5D
3. The subject size stays the same but the relative size of the sensors are NOT the same.
4. Canon has EF and EFS lenses. The Ef lens has a bigger image circle than the EFS to compensate for the difference in sensor size.
5. When an EF lens...Show more →

Hi Ben,

What you say is true here, but what you aren't accounting for is that with modern mirrorless cameras you can have a camera like the A7r IV that has nearly the same (actually just a bit more) pixel density than Sony's APS-C cameras. With that camera you can just press a button and you have the same size sensor and the same view in the viewfinder as an APS-C camera, and you can get that camera for about $2,000 and use either FE or E lenses on it. There are no advantages of an APS-C camera over such a camera. Further the Fuji GFX 100s has that same pixel density in a 44 X 33 camera, and being a mirrorless camera can also magnify the view in the viewfinder and use a smaller part of the sensor.

So while what you say is true with DSLRs like the 5D M4 vs. the 90D, it is not true for the the Sony A7r IV vs. the Sony a6500 and this is the Sony board after all. There is no advantage of an APS-C camera on Sony over the Sony A7r IV.

Apr 30, 2022 at 11:26 AM

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