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Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3

  
 
Sanlameer
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


Thanks Steve,

We agree on the structural differences between full and crop frame.

IMHO full frame sensors has less noise, larger pixels and in my case, much better focus abilities than the 5D. I am using a Canon 5 DM 4 for microscope objective work-my R5 refuse to work with my setup. All my other Macro photos-mirror less Canon R5.

Regards

Ben



Apr 30, 2022 at 12:06 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


Sanlameer wrote:
Thanks Steve,

We agree on the structural differences between full and crop frame.

IMHO full frame sensors has less noise, larger pixels and in my case, much better focus abilities than the 5D. I am using a Canon 5 DM 4 for microscope objective work-my R5 refuse to work with my setup. All my other Macro photos-mirror less Canon R5.

Regards

Ben


FF 35 mm sensors donít necessarily have bigger pixels. In Sony land the A7r IV has smaller pixels than any current APS-C Sony camera. Pixel size is independent of sensor size. It is not a structural difference. If you use the whole FF sensor and examine images at the same magnification then if the pixels are even close to being as capable in converting light then the FF sensor will have less noise. Over twice as much light is hitting the FF vs. APS-C sensor if you are using the same aperture and shutter speed. That is the key difference but you donít have to use that bigger sensor if you donít want to do so which negates any advantage of the smaller format.



Apr 30, 2022 at 12:22 PM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3




Sanlameer wrote:
I am also confused.

If a full frame en crop sensor camera have sensors of the nearly the same resolution like the on 5DM4 and 90D the following would be true:

1. Each photo would be 30 Mega pixels
2. The sensor of the 90 D would be 1.6 smaller than the full full frame 5D
3. The subject size stays the same but the relative size of the sensors are NOT the same.
4. Canon has EF and EFS lenses. The Ef lens has a bigger image circle than the EFS to compensate for the difference in sensor size.
5. When an EF lens
...Show more

You basically seem to have it correct. If you set your macro lens to a certain magnification, let's say 1:1, the subject is the same size on each sensor. However, you need less magnification for a given subject on the smaller sensor. This generally makes things a lot easier. Kinda like using aps for telephotos to get more reach

Let's take my favorite 55-250. It goes to 1:3.3 or so and is very lightweight. To fill the frame on the larger ff sensor I'd need 1:2 magnification and to get the same reach I'd need a much heavier 100-400. And 400mm vs 250mm

Is ff higher quality? In general, yes, but it takes more extension to get to 1:2 than 1:3.3 (unless you use diopters, another subject.) So less light. Slightly higher ISO if shooting hh. Also you'd need to stop down more since longer FL and higher magnification have less dof (assuming that you want dof.) Probably lose a bit of sharpness on modern lenses at f/11+ and again need higher ISO if hh. So ff might not be as obvious an advantage



Apr 30, 2022 at 12:26 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


AmbientMike wrote:
You basically seem to have it correct. If you set your macro lens to a certain magnification, let's say 1:1, the subject is the same size on each sensor. However, you need less magnification for a given subject on the smaller sensor. This generally makes things a lot easier. Kinda like using aps for telephotos to get more reach

Let's take my favorite 55-250. It goes to 1:3.3 or so and is very lightweight. To fill the frame on the larger ff sensor I'd need 1:2 magnification and to get the same reach I'd need a much heavier 100-400. And
...Show more

Or you could push a button on a mirror less FF camera and shoot in APS-C mode and get exactly the same magnification as using an APS-C camera because you are in fact using your FF camera as an APS-C camera, so zero advantage for the smaller format.




Apr 30, 2022 at 12:31 PM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3



Steve Spencer wrote:
Or you could push a button on a mirror less FF camera and shoot in APS-C mode and get exactly the same magnification as using an APS-C camera because you are in fact using your FF camera as an APS-C camera, so zero advantage for the smaller format.



Yes, but the A7r4 is roughly 50% heavier than my Canon SL2. Both have the same pixel density, and the Canon cost a fraction of the A7r4.

Another issue is that you tend to need more specialized gear going past 1:1. Shooting at 2:1 on ff is likely to require a more specialized lens like 65 MP-E, 2x tc, or a stack of tubes which isn't fun. 1:1 on m4/3 for instance you can just use a regular lens.



Apr 30, 2022 at 12:39 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


AmbientMike wrote:
Yes, but the A7r4 is roughly 50% heavier than my Canon SL2. Both have the same pixel density, and the Canon cost a fraction of the A7r4.

Another issue is that you tend to need more specialized gear going past 1:1. Shooting at 2:1 on ff is likely to require a more specialized lens like 65 MP-E, 2x tc, or a stack of tubes which isn't fun. 1:1 on m4/3 for instance you can just use a regular lens.


I think you are exaggerating here a bit Mike. The Canon SL2 weighs 200g less than the Sony A7r IV. It isn't a night and day difference in weight at all and the Canon SL2 sports a mount that isn't really being supported by its manufacturer any more so of course it is super cheap. You have to know these aren't really comparable cameras.

And once again you make the mistake of suggesting you need a 2:1 macro. I can't believe you can't see that you don't All you have to do is use the A7r IV in APS-C mode and you can certainly use the 1:1 zoom so that bit about the 2:1 macro is just utter non-sense. It should be obvious you got that wrong yet again, but I am sure yet again you won't admit you got it wrong.



Apr 30, 2022 at 05:20 PM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


Steve Spencer wrote:
I think you are exaggerating here a bit Mike. The Canon SL2 weighs 200g less than the Sony A7r IV. It isn't a night and day difference in weight at all and the Canon SL2 sports a mount that isn't really being supported by its manufacturer any more so of course it is super cheap. You have to know these aren't really comparable cameras.

And once again you make the mistake of suggesting you need a 2:1 macro. I can't believe you can't see that you don't All you have to do is use the A7r IV in APS-C mode
...Show more

No Steve. I'm not wrong. You're looking at roughly 1lb vs 1.5 lbs. Canon SL2 vs A7r4 Actually I'm seeing 665g vs 453g. Yes I realize aps dslr is unpopular. Pretty dumb if you ask me. But feel free to spend more I guess.

If you are taking a photo at 2:1 on ff, you'd only need 1:1 to fill the frame on m4/3. Higher magnification is harder, so ff tends to be harder. But yes if you want to buy a much heavier more expensive camera and use it as an aps camera go ahead I guess. I wasn't even talking about that in the post you quoted . But for some reason you are off on a tangent talking about using ff as aps and telling me I'm wrong. I'm not.




Apr 30, 2022 at 11:07 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


AmbientMike wrote:
No Steve. I'm not wrong. You're looking at roughly 1lb vs 1.5 lbs. Canon SL2 vs A7r4 Actually I'm seeing 665g vs 453g. Yes I realize aps dslr is unpopular. Pretty dumb if you ask me. But feel free to spend more I guess.

If you are taking a photo at 2:1 on ff, you'd only need 1:1 to fill the frame on m4/3. Higher magnification is harder, so ff tends to be harder. But yes if you want to buy a much heavier more expensive camera and use it as an aps camera go ahead I guess. I wasn't even
...Show more

Ok, Mike, it is 212g if you want to be precise, but still not a night and day difference in size. It also obviously isn't comparable cameras. The Canon SLR starts with a mount that has been totally abandoned for years. It has a sensor that is a half of a stop to a third of a stop behind the A7r IV in APS-C crop mode in dynamic range across the whole ISO range. See this link:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%20200D,Sony%20ILCE-7RM4(APS-C)

The AF of the Canon SL2 only has 9 AF points clustered in the center vs. 325 AF for the A7r IV in APS-C mode covering almost the whole frame. The Canons SL2 shoots shoots 5 fps, the Sony A7r IV shoots 10 fps. The Canon SL2 has a max shutter speed of 1/4000 vs 1/8000 for the Sony A7r IV; if you want to use continuous shooting you get 6 shots with the Canon SL2 before the buffer fills and with the A7r IV you can get at least 30; the Canon SL2 get you 1/200 flash sync vs. the A7r IV get you 1/250 flash sync. I could go on but why bother. It is obvious these are not comparable cameras not in any way, and I haven't even mentioned you don't have to shoot the A7r IV in APS-C mode you can use it as 61 MP FF 35mm camera as well.. The SL2 is simply way behind the A7r IV in many many ways, so far it is really pretty ridiculous to suggest they are comparable.

Further if you wanted to fill the frame with the A7r IV why would you use a 2:1 macro instead simply pressing the button and using a 2X digital zoom? Did you not know that exists or will you just not recognize it because it demonstrates you are wrong? The 2:1 macro argument is wrong because you can simply press a button and get that very same final output and the same image in the viewfinder. You have the image right there at full real life size you just need to activate the digital zoom (i.e., the automatic 2X crop) and it will show up both in the viewfinder and in the final image. it isn't a tangent. You claim an advantage for the smaller sensor, but because you can use the smaller part of the FF sensor there is no advantage. That should be obvious by now, but of course it isn't to you because you can't admit you are wrong. You are. There is no advantage to the smaller format sensor.



May 01, 2022 at 01:28 AM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


Steve Spencer wrote:
Ok, Mike, it is 212g if you want to be precise, but still not a night and day difference in size. It also obviously isn't comparable cameras. The Canon SLR starts with a mount that has been totally abandoned for years. It has a sensor that is a half of a stop to a third of a stop behind the A7r IV in APS-C crop mode in dynamic range across the whole ISO range. See this link:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%20200D,Sony%20ILCE-7RM4(APS-C)

The AF of the Canon SL2 only has 9 AF points clustered in the center vs. 325 AF for the A7r IV in
...Show more

Yes Steve, there can be an advantage to the smaller m4/3 sensor. You need half the magnification to fill the frame with the same subject. Or if you prefer, 2x the magnification on ff. And as I've already mentioned there's stuff that cuts into any ff iq advantage. Although the op made nice use of ff here.

Your A7r4 is about 50% heavier than the SL2. Plus metabones or sigma EF adapter, so it's well over 50% heavier. About half a pound so about the same as mirrorless vs some of the 2lb DSLR's. Pretty significant weight. And higher percentage. Aps mode might be handy, but the flip side is you could be using a much lighter, less expensive camera if you are using it.

Most of the "advantages" you mentioned, I mean, how often do you need 1/8000 for macro? Somewhere between not very often or never. 10fps isn't usually very useful. 1/3 stop flash sync? OK. And in LV, I can put the af box over much of the frame. Probably more than 485 options for focus points. How's the ovf on yours? Mine has mirrorless. You have less pixel density on ff vs m4/3. No 80mp ff cameras out there. Hopefully the much heavier camera has some advantages. Yes there are advantages to using the smaller sensors for macro. Whether you can see or comprehend it is another matter.



May 01, 2022 at 09:32 AM
 


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Steve Spencer
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


AmbientMike wrote:
Yes Steve, there can be an advantage to the smaller m4/3 sensor. You need half the magnification to fill the frame with the same subject. Or if you prefer, 2x the magnification on ff. And as I've already mentioned there's stuff that cuts into any ff iq advantage. Although the op made nice use of ff here.

Your A7r4 is about 50% heavier than the SL2. Plus metabones or sigma EF adapter, so it's well over 50% heavier. About half a pound so about the same as mirrorless vs some of the 2lb DSLR's. Pretty significant weight. And higher percentage. Aps
...Show more

Uh, Mike you keep repeating yourself saying the same wrong things. It is simple. The big sensor can also be used as a small sensor. You have not recognized or acknowledged that, but it is obviously true. If the FF sensor camera can also function as a small sensor camera in every way, which it can with mirrorless, then the small sensor clearly has no advantage because the FF camera is also a small sensor camera.

Now this nonsense about cherry picking different manufacturer's outdated cameras and trying to compare them to a modern camera is all beside the point. It has nothing to do with the sensor and how it can be used. Sony has built for example the A7C which is a small FF camera. Canon, Nikon, Sigma and Panasonic might as well. They might build them smaller and with higher pixel density sensors (Sigma already has). All that is possible if there is a market for it. The fact that Canon built the SL2 ages ago and you can still use it and for some who can handle it many limitations it might even be a good deal, says nothing about whether small sensor cameras have an advantage over FF sensor cameras. It does say something about the relative advantages and disadvantages of outdated vs. modern cameras. Old outdated cameras like the SL2 are cheaper. They were built cheap to sell a ton of them and they were built light, They also were built with a lot of serious limitations including awful AF, slow fps, slow max shutter speed, and a terrible viewfinder (IMO). I find such cameras virtually unusable, but if you like them more power to you. It just makes little sense to compare such a camera to a modern mirrorless camera (such as comparing the weight) and it makes even less sense when you are trying to compare such cameras when you say it has anything to do with sensor size. So what that the SL2 is lighter. The Sigma FP weighs 427g (so lighter than the SL2) is a full frame camera with a 61 MP sensor (so same pixel pitch as the SL2) and can be used as a small sensor camera as well as a FF camera and because it can be used as a small sensor camera a small sensor camera clearly has no advantages over it. Personally, I would like a cameras that isn't stripped down quite so much, but if you just want to get small and don't care about any limitations of the camera a FF mirrorless camera can do that too.

Oh, and to be crystal clear when you use a FF camera as a small sensor camera it has zero advantage over the small sensor camera. The two cameras are on a level playing field when you only use a small part of the larger sensor. The FF camera doesn't have an advantage, but neither does the small sensor camera. Hence, there is no advantage to the small sensor camera. The advantage of the FF camera is you don't have to shoot it in small sensor mode. You can also shoot it in a mode that uses a larger part of the sensor. That you can use the camera both ways is clearly an advantage of the FF sensor and that really helps for shots like I posted on the first page. Those shots are not possible on a small sensor camera. In contrast, there are no advantage to a small sensor camera, because modern mirrorless cameras have the built-in ability to shoot as a small sensor camera.

And although there aren't any 80 MP FF cameras yet, we can bet there will be and the 61 MP cameras that exist have very similar pixel density to the common 16 MP micro 4/3rds cameras. When we use a 61 MP camera as a small sensor camera the size of a micro 4/3rds sensor (i.e., in 2X automatic crop), then we get an image with about the same pixel density as a 16 MP micro 4/3rds image. If you think a 20 MP or even now a 25 MP micro 4/3rds image is a lot better than a 16 MP micro 4/3rds then some micro 4/3rds camera could have a slight advantage over the 2X cropped FF image. Personally, I don't think those higher density cameras add much at this point, but if you do then it would be true that some micro 4/3rds camera have that higher pixel density advantage. This isn't an advantage of the sensor size, however, it is an advantage of the pixel density and that can and will change as we move forward.

And for macro shooting having a 6 shot buffer is just pathetic and would affect my shooting. If conditions are at all windy I often shoot in small bursts and being limited to 6 shots would totally suck. This is also when 10 fps is clearly an advantage over 5 fps. As I demonstrated on the previous page I often shoot at wide apertures when using macro so I do use 1/8000 some of the time. If you only stop down, then of course that wouldn't affect your shooting. I do often use 1/250 and when I use flash with macro I do like to use flash sync. I also will certainly take the extra half to a third stop in dynamic range. So the things I mentioned do matter to me. Again if none of those things matter to you, then more power to you, but to me these cameras just aren't comparable.

Finally, lets talk viewfinder. IMO, the SL2 OVF totally sucks. I find it so bad I would never use it and although you have a LCD that allows contrast detect AF (with lenses that aren't designed for that type of AF) you don't have an EVF and I would take an EVF over that crappy (IMO) OVF on the SL2 even though I like and appreciate an OVF. With the SL2 you are stuck with a crappy (IMO) OVF or a poorly designed and implement LCD, which IMO is a horrible choice between two bad alternatives. This is a huge reason why for me the SL2 is hardly useable. Of course YMMV, but I think there are some pretty powerful reasons APS-C DSLRs are no longer popular and it starts with the crappy (IMO, which may be shared by lots of people) OVF.

I have said my piece more times than I intended to. I will leave this as my last post.



May 01, 2022 at 10:09 AM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3




Steve Spencer wrote:
Uh, Mike you keep repeating yourself saying the same wrong things. It is simple. The big sensor can also be used as a small sensor. You have not recognized or acknowledged that, but it is obviously true. If the FF sensor camera can also function as a small sensor camera in every way, which it can with mirrorless, then the small sensor clearly has no advantage because the FF camera is also a small sensor camera.

Now this nonsense about cherry picking different manufacturer's outdated cameras and trying to compare them to a modern camera is all beside the
...Show more

I didn't bother to read your bloviating post, perhaps I'll get to it later, but if I'm going ff mirrorless the IBIS/IS sounds MUCH more effective on the R5 & R6. And as far as af speed, the A7r4 may be the dinosaur, compared to those 2.

And does the A7r4 even have an articulating screen?!?!? Sheesh, not sure what is going on there, but my SL2 does. I use it a lot. I'm not sure if I'd go back in time to a non-articulating screen. That's a lot more important than most or all of the advantages of the A7r4 you mentioned. That is probably a deal breaker, for me.



May 01, 2022 at 11:24 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


AmbientMike wrote:
I didn't bother to read your bloviating post, perhaps I'll get to it later, but if I'm going ff mirrorless the IBIS/IS sounds MUCH more effective on the R5 & R6. And as far as af speed, the A7r4 may be the dinosaur, compared to those 2.

And does the A7r4 even have an articulating screen?!?!? Sheesh, not sure what is going on there, but my SL2 does. I use it a lot. I'm not sure if I'd go back in time to a non-articulating screen. That's a lot more important than most or all of the advantages of the A7r4
...Show more

I am not going to comment on why small sensor cameras have no advantage over large sensor cameras, but I guess it is to be expected when you don't read other people's posts you miss what they are saying. I don't have an A7r IV. I am not here to defend it. It has a tilting LCD but that is all. The Sigma FP, however, does have an articulating LCD since that matters to you. And I agree that Sony's IBIS is not that great (both Canon and Nikon seem to do clearly better in mirrorless) and the R5 & R6 AF is better than the Sony A7r IV in most respects. Top level AF, however, goes to the Sony A9, Sony A9 II, Sony A1, Nikon Z9, and Canon R3. If you are looking to FF, then I think the Sigma FP might be a better camera for you as you seem to be able to accept many of its limitations and it is even smaller than your Canon SL2, and it has just as high of pixel density allowing you to use it as an APS-C camera and a micro 4/3rds camera if you can get your head around that.



May 01, 2022 at 11:49 AM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3




Steve Spencer wrote:
I have said my piece more times than I intended to. I will leave this as my last post.



One of the many things you've said that isn't true.......

But it's difficult to get to them all.



May 01, 2022 at 02:35 PM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3




Steve Spencer wrote:
I am not going to comment on why small sensor cameras have no advantage over large sensor cameras, but I guess it is to be expected when you don't read other people's posts you miss what they are saying. I don't have an A7r IV. I am not here to defend it. It has a tilting LCD but that is all. The Sigma FP, however, does have an articulating LCD since that matters to you. And I agree that Sony's IBIS is not that great (both Canon and Nikon seem to do clearly better in mirrorless) and the R5
...Show more

Yes, Steve. Smaller sensor cameras have advantages over larger sensor cameras for macro. I could explain it again but you already griped at me for repeating myself trying to get through to your rock head. So I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do, exactly. Not that I really care too much. Perhaps you'd like to explain the lens options on the sigma FP. Since you seem to know everything. I'm going to go out on a (very) short limb: canon has more lens options. And after spending $1500 just for a body to change systems how do I adapt 55-250? And We haven't even touched pp yet.....



May 01, 2022 at 03:19 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


AmbientMike wrote:
Yes, Steve. Smaller sensor cameras have advantages over larger sensor cameras for macro. I could explain it again but you already griped at me for repeating myself trying to get through to your rock head. So I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do, exactly. Not that I really care too much. Perhaps you'd like to explain the lens options on the sigma FP. Since you seem to know everything. I'm going to go out on a (very) short limb: canon has more lens options. And after spending $1500 just for a body to change systems how do I adapt
...Show more

You did have to go to personal attacks. (i.e., rock head) Duly reported.



May 01, 2022 at 04:50 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


AmbientMike wrote:
One of the many things you've said that isn't true.......

But it's difficult to get to them all.


I did not comment again on whether small sensor camera have any advantage again, but I wanted to answer the questions you raised. I guess those questions were not sincere, but an attempt to get me to post again so you could respond this way. Certainly not cool behavior. If you were going to make a comment like this you should not have asked any questions. I will not be answering your questions any longer as it is clear your behavior has clearly degraded and you no longer want to be civil.



May 01, 2022 at 05:03 PM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3



Steve Spencer wrote:
I did not comment again on whether small sensor camera have any advantage again, but I wanted to answer the questions you raised. I guess those questions were not sincere, but an attempt to get me to post again so you could respond this way. Certainly not cool behavior. If you were going to make a comment like this you should not have asked any questions. I will not be answering your questions any longer as it is clear your behavior has clearly degraded and you no longer want to be civil.


You haven't been exactly civil, yourself. Fred can delete most of my posts in this disaster of a thread for sure. The op has some nice flower shots, and some good discussion in the middle I guess. Mostly you made a mess



May 01, 2022 at 05:31 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Paeony Through Oshiro 60mm on A7r3


AmbientMike wrote:
You haven't been exactly civil, yourself. Fred can delete most of my posts in this disaster of a thread for sure. The op has some nice flower shots, and some good discussion in the middle I guess. Mostly you made a mess


Way to take responsibility for your behavior Blame me if you like, I hope it helps you feel better for your insistence on your position even though it was clear you were wrong. I was civil. I never attacked you. I just pointed out the many times you were wrong. It is not uncivil to point out someone's mistaken beliefs, Calling someone a rockhead? Now that is uncivil. Learn the difference between someone who challenges your views and someone who makes personal attacks. You should be able to handle someone who challenges your beliefs without attacking them. Unfortunately, that was not something you could do in this thread.



May 01, 2022 at 06:24 PM
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