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Archive 2022 · Why has noise become so noisy?

  
 
Sagar
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Why has noise become so noisy?


I understand FF sensors give super clean images at ridiculously high ISO which is all good. But I keep wondering why so much noise about noise? Why do people keep beating m43 and other similar formats just because they don’t match few stops of noise?

If you look at any of the most famous photographs be it street/documentary or artistic in last century, even from last decade would probably be discarded by todays crowd just because of too much noise ;-).

similar thing for megapixel race, remember Nikon lunched 6Mp and 10-12 Mp cameras? Or Dynamic range and the list goes on.

By profession I am an engineer so I do appreciate technological advancement and all that, but sometimes I think in pursuit of achieving technical perfection are we loosing soul of photography? Isn’t photography about the aesthetics, the art, the story? When did it become all about noise and megapixels?

Just curious about what this group thinks



Feb 22, 2022 at 09:38 PM
johnvanr
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Why has noise become so noisy?


We’ve long lost sight of the image because of the focus on technical IQ.


Feb 22, 2022 at 09:51 PM
fadeslayer
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Why has noise become so noisy?


The gear before the content. Forums, YouTubers, all pushed it towards focusing on technical aspects, which are a great tool to get the content rendered in a better way, but there must be content in the first place.

I had a bunch of tools with varying level of "noise performance", from APS-C to full frame to APS-C again, then full frame, then Micro Four-Thirds. I got great improvements with the last fullframe period, ISO-wise, but I found limitations in handling and enjoyment that made me lose focus on what pictures should communicate. Switching to m43 brought pleasure again. Noise manageable, even if not at the same level as before with full frame, I am bored of all those perfect clean backgrounds. Someone may like them, but it's often more of a "I have better results" race than real needs.



Feb 23, 2022 at 06:26 AM
mawz
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Why has noise become so noisy?


To be honest, I've gone back to FF. I've also shot APS-C in recent memory.

That said, noise wasn't really a big deal for me.

It does crop up sometimes. I can simply get shots that I couldn't with m43, because noise really is a non-issue up to around ISO 50k with modern FF sensors. But to be honest, I don't shoot that much at those ISO's, really only wildlife grab shots when hiking, but it's nice to not have to worry about ISO in the woods. My experience is that while m43 generally has a 2 stop noise penalty vs FF, there was a hard stop at ISO 6400 on m43 and above that my m43 bodies got worse faster than FF bodies did. The flip side is f2.8 zooms on m43 are the size and weight of f4-5.6 zooms on FF, which meant there was no real tradeoff in either direction until that ISO6400 limit.

For me it's low ISO performance where I get my gains. A base ISO of 100 is a big deal for me (If somebody came out with a 50MP camera with an ISO range of 6-6400, I'd snap it up in a heartbeat). As a landscape shooter I spend a lot of time and effort reducing the effective ISO I'm shooting at, not boosting it.

My one complaint with m43 in terms of IQ was file malleability. I just hit the limits of the file quicker than I do with larger formats when doing post. The flip side is the very strong multishot capabilities of m43 bodies meant that I often was getting better files than I did with APS-C. But multishot is always situational and single-frame FF can match and generally beat multishot m43, and my FF body has some multishot capabilities.

That said, yeah, people make WAY too much of a deal about sensor performance today. Unless you shoot in challenging light, any sensor on the market will deliver the goods and m43 is the only crop solution which has multishot capabilities to give the high-resolution goods that are otherwise restricted to high-MP FF and Mini-MF bodies (and the Panny S1 & S5, the only low-MP, non-m43 bodies with a high-rez mode outside of the Pentax system).



Feb 23, 2022 at 09:51 AM
Robin Smith
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Why has noise become so noisy?


Completely agree. Dynamic range is the least important characteristic to me and people frequently bang on about it. My film days were with slides so I am use to having almost no dynamic range to play with. Resolution is another. Most people don't print and certainly do not make large prints. Birders like to crop, but those who really care a lot about pixels probably rarely crop, because they then get palpitations for using fewer than the max pixels. I don't much care for noise, dating from my film days, and some add film grain presets to their shots to make them mimic Tri-X etc. I don't do this. I think in general noise is not a main worry for me, except when I am documenting things at extreme low light levels 12,800 ISO + then, obviously, I prefer the least noisy image I can get. However these are not the shots I do for pleasure, more for duty (school sports). I rarely use >3200 ISO otherwise.

As we all know selling gear is always about technical specs, and this is the way it has probably always been, probably even back in the day of wet plates. I think however the days of radical improvements in technological capabilities has drastically slowed, so things are shifting again to things like FPS, buffer depth, write times, AF focusing capabilities. Although I think I want an OM1 I am thinking that I don't really need 50 FPS and the fast AF as I probably won't be shooting subjects that need these capabilities in the future, nor will I be shooting extreme low light shots either, so I may be wasting my money. I think the other thing that happens as you age is that you may begin to question why taking photos is actually "important". I just get pleasure out of it, for some reason, but sometimes I think I will wake up to a time when the experience is all that matters and a camera or phone is not needed. Hasn't happened yet, but it might.



Feb 23, 2022 at 10:03 AM
pbraymond
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Why has noise become so noisy?


Sagar wrote:
Isn’t photography about the aesthetics, the art, the story?


Yes, but when those things come together I want it captured with the highest fidelity possible, with the most room to edit when needed. I still use the relatively ancient E-M5ii, and in appropriate conditions don't have complaints.

For occasions when I do process something to provide the feel of shooting Velvia (my landscape emulsion of choice back then), I still like having things there to start with, that I can choose emphasize or deemphasize based on what I am trying to achieve.

Technically speaking, m43 still holds some advantages over larger sensors; for landscape or any shooting where large depth of field is desired, m43 is great so long as the dynamic range (and shadow noise) can be captured well within the limits of the sensor. As for megapixels, I'll always take more, all else being equal :-). I guess I'm part of the problem.



Feb 23, 2022 at 12:41 PM
Robin Smith
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Why has noise become so noisy?


That is the argument, more is always "better" even if you never use it, "all things being equal". But, of course, things are never truly equal.


Feb 24, 2022 at 10:26 AM





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