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Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses

  
 
Jman13
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p.10 #1 · p.10 #1 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


Except the lens doesn't remain a 400/2.8. It becomes an 800/5.6. And yes, doing it optically is the difference there.


Mar 02, 2022 at 03:28 PM
arbitrage
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p.10 #2 · p.10 #2 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


Jesse Evans wrote:
Also, a teleconverter is a device for optically cropping your image. The teleconverter does not make something "more telephoto" by changing the actual focal length of a lens, rather, a 2x teleconverter takes the image circle projected from the back of a lens and expands it by 2x, this new wider image circle is then "cropped" by your sensor. There only differences between a cropped image and a teleconverted image are:


What are your thoughts on the design of these two lenses? Do you feel they are more along the lines of "changing the actual focal length of a lens" or expanding the image from the lens these are based off of on the front end (400 and 600 RF/EFIII)?

To me it seems that given the way they are designed they are working more like a 2xTC would on a 400 and 600. But then what really is the difference between how these are working and how putting a 2x on the end of the lens works? Is there really any difference between screwing on your own TC to a 600III versus Canon adding an extra bit of tube with very similar elements at the rear of the 600III elements (confirmed by Canon)?

On a slightly different note: On the three built in TC lenses on the market the TC elements get inserted between other elements and not at the rear. Those lenses seem more along the lines of "changing the actual focal length" versus Teleconverting the base lens (200-400, 180-400, 400/2.8).



Mar 02, 2022 at 04:07 PM
jedibrain
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p.10 #3 · p.10 #3 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


Curious, is there any information out there on the focal length of the front element group by itself? I'm just thinking its possible that that front group is somewhere in the middle of the two focal lengths and the element groups toward the back are a tele extender in one case and tele-compressor in the other. Could be the musings of a mad man though. I have seen some telescopes that use varying corrector elements like that to change the focal length and F ratio of the two primary pieces of glass.

Brian



Mar 03, 2022 at 08:54 AM
lighthound
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p.10 #4 · p.10 #4 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


"Cannot see the forest for the trees."
Is what comes to mind when I read the last several pages in this thread.

Does anyone here really think the RF 800 f/5.6 is going to render worse or have lower IQ compared to the EF 800 f/5.6?
It's going to be every bit as good (or better) as the RF 600 but 200mm more reach and a stop slower. Simple as that.



Mar 03, 2022 at 11:21 AM
Jesse Evans
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p.10 #5 · p.10 #5 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses




arbitrage wrote:
What are your thoughts on the design of these two lenses? Do you feel they are more along the lines of "changing the actual focal length of a lens" or expanding the image from the lens these are based off of on the front end (400 and 600 RF/EFIII)?

To me it seems that given the way they are designed they are working more like a 2xTC would on a 400 and 600. But then what really is the difference between how these are working and how putting a 2x on the end of the lens works? Is there really any
...Show more

So, obviously the thin lens formula determined focal length changes regardless (as JMan is right to point out).

For lenses with TCs attached externally or internally, all of the other parts of the original design for their focal length stay the same. The entrance and exit pupil, aperture location, the points at which ray bundles cross over, the resulting minimum focal distance, the magnification changes during close and far focusing. The optical center of the lens does not actually shift forward 400mm when you attach a 2x teleconverter to a 400mm lens, it only shifts forward by however thick the TC is.

It seems obvious that is what’s going on with these new lenses. However, the main question is whether there is any significant drawback to the design, and it really does seem like Canon has eliminated a lot of the issues of their current TCs, likely due to the UD/aspherical element group sitting before the traditional TC group.

If these lenses perform as well or better than the older 800 and 1200 then perhaps we could expect Sony to come out with some
more exotic TCs to compete with these 😄



Mar 03, 2022 at 11:27 AM
white
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p.10 #6 · p.10 #6 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


arbitrage wrote:
Hey if you're happy with it that is all that matters.

To me this doesn't look indistinguishable what so ever....


I will try to not make this into one of those endless rebuttals with just one more comment.

Brian at the digital picture has a great and useful site, but I have found more than one his resolution targets to not necessarily reflect reality for me. Perhaps it is that all of these targets are shot near minimum focus for which most optics are not optimized for, or the varying sensors used that limits cross comparison, or that the easily removed lateral chromatics have been left in place, or something else. But I believe Brain switched to the 600GM for his own use so I guess that is a vote of confidence.

The MTF chart of the straight 600GM is basically a straight line at the very top of the graph, perhaps the best MTF I have seen of any lens. So you are definitely starting at the best point before adding any converters. The Sony converters seem to be very well regarded.

I am perhaps one of those few people that may have had more optics in my life than you have I don't know much about a lot of things but I think I know a "sharp" optic by now. You did remove the packing tape around the rear filter holder that the 600GM ships with didn't you?

I can not over emphasize the strong negative effects of atmospheric conditions on the resolution of the capture. Even 50-100m distance over water can have strong effects. That is the limiting variable factor for a long lens in the real world. The only other negative factor in the 600GM x 2 combo is the f8 increasing the ISO requirements, which obviously also impacts perceived sharpness.

So I find it hard to understand why you are not impressed by the 600GMx2 combo. I can send you files, but I am sure you have enough of your own.

As you say, "if it works for me"; and it definitely does work for me if the atmospheric conditions permit, ( and if I remove the packing tape from the rear filter!)



Mar 03, 2022 at 11:59 AM
Jesse Evans
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p.10 #7 · p.10 #7 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses




lighthound wrote:
"Cannot see the forest for the trees."
Is what comes to mind when I read the last several pages in this thread.

Does anyone here really think the RF 800 f/5.6 is going to render worse or have lower IQ compared to the EF 800 f/5.6?
It's going to be every bit as good (or better) as the RF 600 but 200mm more reach and a stop slower. Simple as that.


Why is it simple as that? Is it going to be $5,000 better than a 600 with 1.4x tc which will give you 40mm more reach and maintain the same effective aperture?



Mar 03, 2022 at 12:54 PM
arbitrage
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p.10 #8 · p.10 #8 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


lighthound wrote:
"Cannot see the forest for the trees."
Is what comes to mind when I read the last several pages in this thread.

Does anyone here really think the RF 800 f/5.6 is going to render worse or have lower IQ compared to the EF 800 f/5.6?
It's going to be every bit as good (or better) as the RF 600 but 200mm more reach and a stop slower. Simple as that.


I believe it will be on par with the EF 800L but not a lot better if we go off of the MTFs.

I do not believe it will be as good as the bare RF600 based on the MTFs. It may be as good as the RF600 with 1.4TC and it will be a bit better than the RF400 with 2xTC (I think based on the MTFs). But it certainly is not as good as a bare RF600. Of course you will have to crop that bare 600 or add the 1.4TC to get the similar reach so then who knows? f/4 has become the bare minimum aperture I've wanted to use throughout the dreary winter so I'd still much prefer the 600/4 and to use a TC to get 840/5.6 when the sun shines and the birds stay at distance



Mar 03, 2022 at 01:26 PM
arbitrage
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p.10 #9 · p.10 #9 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


white wrote:
I will try to not make this into one of those endless rebuttals with just one more comment.

Brian at the digital picture has a great and useful site, but I have found more than one his resolution targets to not necessarily reflect reality for me. Perhaps it is that all of these targets are shot near minimum focus for which most optics are not optimized for, or the varying sensors used that limits cross comparison, or that the easily removed lateral chromatics have been left in place, or something else. But I believe Brain switched to the 600GM for his
...Show more

I'll have to double check that tape thing. No idea if I removed anything from the filter when I got the lens. My memory evades me looking back 2 years now.

I'm not saying the 600/2x is a terrible optic. I've got some nice images with it for very close subjects. But where it lets me down is trying to use it over distances where the 840 or 600 is just too short. The 1200 just doesn't improve anything so in the end it is just a lost image. Filling the frame more for closer subjects versus cropping the 840 or 600 will often net me a similar image in the end but I never see much gain in IQ from doing so. Final IQ is usually a wash so I tend to just stick with the larger aperture and lower ISO (or higher SS) by using 840 or 600.

I think my issue stems from loving the biting contrast from the bare lens and just concentrating on shooting subjects that fill enough of the frame for me to be happy shooting the 600. Of course by doing that those subjects are always going to be closer than a subject that fills enough of the frame at 840 or 1200 and getting close is the #1 factor in improving IQ. I hardly even use the 1.4TC anymore with the 600 for this reason.

I have often wondered if I have a bit of a dud 2xTC so one day I tried my friend's 2xTC back to back and the images looked the same back on the computer.



Mar 03, 2022 at 01:37 PM
burningheart
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p.10 #10 · p.10 #10 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


Jesse Evans wrote:
Why is it simple as that? Is it going to be $5,000 better than a 600 with 1.4x tc which will give you 40mm more reach and maintain the same effective aperture?


For some people yes. Of course $5000 is a big premium but for some like having a starting base of 800mm with the option to go to 1120 or 1600 if desired. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the design and price of Canon's offering it is what it is. For better or worse those who want a native 800 or 1200 this is what Canon is offering.

If I understand Lighthound's comment correctly it seems a lot of people are upset with the design and price premium, and that is fine, but in the end Canon controls the pricing and design and each person can decide if they want an native 800 or 1200 or with TCs a 400 or 600 Canon won't be changing the design they may change the price but for now as many point out it is a premium over a 600 + 1.4.



Mar 03, 2022 at 01:45 PM
 


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lighthound
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p.10 #11 · p.10 #11 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


Jesse Evans wrote:
Why is it simple as that? Is it going to be $5,000 better than a 600 with 1.4x tc which will give you 40mm more reach and maintain the same effective aperture?


Because it is that simple. These are 800mm & 1200mm lenses, period. Who cares about MTF's or optical formulas and weather or not it's the same 2x TC grouping that was simply slapped, super glued or duct taped to them or whatever the latest cute term used by the competition.
When is the last time you saw an amazing image posted on one of the presentation boards where the first thought you had was...
"Wow! What an incredible shot! But to bad the image was captured using a lens that showed poor MTF chart data."

And thank you for reinforcing my point. Canon knows exactly the level of IQ the RF 400 and 600 + 1.4x & 2x yields for their customers. So why would they spend the time and resources on these new great whites and expect people to come running with their wallets wide open if there is no benefit over what these same customers already own with the RF 400 & 600 + TC's?
If the IQ isn't there, then these new lenses are already DEAD. What would be to point in spending $17k-$20k when you could save $5k+ and have a more versatile set-up for closer subjects?

I get it, trust me. This is a "gear head" sub forum so these discussions take place and are fun and enjoyable to many.
But at some point, people need to step back and look at what they could be holding in their hands and the images that these ultra great whites will likely be capable of.
It just seems that folks get a little too hung up on test charts and data sheets and are missing the big picture here.



Mar 03, 2022 at 02:41 PM
Uarctos
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p.10 #12 · p.10 #12 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


I think that the "new" 800 will not be better than the latest 600(be it EF or RF) plus 1.4TC. It may come close but that's all. I've got some insanely sharp pictures with the 600EF plus 2.0 TC at close range when the subject feels the frame, but for distant shots I don't like it and prefer the bare 600 and cropping the image.
I also think that most will prefer the 600 and they will add a TC if needed, therefore having more focal lenghts instead of one.
It's a strange move from Canon.



Mar 03, 2022 at 03:41 PM
white
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p.10 #13 · p.10 #13 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


Cost aside, I think the biggest impediment to acquiring these two long optics is simply how many big lenses can one pack around. I would prefer the versatility a 600 with converters rather than being stuck at a 800 / 1200 focal length or trying to alternate between a 600 and 1200 in the field.

They are specialized lenses among specialized lenses.



Mar 03, 2022 at 04:23 PM
RobAmy
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p.10 #14 · p.10 #14 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


I actually like the RF 800mm idea over the RF 600mm for me personally. I used the EF 800mm for almost 9 years, really enjoyed that lens. I now have the RF 400mm and it makes a great 560mm or 800mm. That said the 600mm has a bit of over lap as it does 600mm and 840mm, which is 2 of what the 400mm can do. When I need 800mm or more the 800mm should be ideal over the 600mm. I love my RF400 as many of you know so if they just added a 2x or whatever they did and it is a bit better then I am in. You will get a 2.5 inch shorter length then the RF 600mm + 1.4x and much better MFD. To me the 800mm may pair incredible with the 400mm. I can get 400mm all the way up to 1600mm with them both. I am still on the fence as it is pricey for sure as this is a hobby. I will sell my RF 600 if I do this to ease the pain a bit.


Mar 03, 2022 at 04:39 PM
arbitrage
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p.10 #15 · p.10 #15 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


white wrote:
Cost aside, I think the biggest impediment to acquiring these two long optics is simply how many big lenses can one pack around. I would prefer the versatility a 600 with converters rather than being stuck at a 800 / 1200 focal length or trying to alternate between a 600 and 1200 in the field.

They are specialized lenses among specialized lenses.


I think the biggest impediment to acquiring that 1200 is finding a bag that can accommodate its length That thing is over half a meter long



Mar 03, 2022 at 04:55 PM
burningheart
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p.10 #16 · p.10 #16 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


RobAmy wrote:
I actually like the RF 800mm idea over the RF 600mm for me personally. I used the EF 800mm for almost 9 years, really enjoyed that lens. I now have the RF 400mm and it makes a great 560mm or 800mm. That said the 600mm has a bit of over lap as it does 600mm and 840mm, which is 2 of what the 400mm can do. When I need 800mm or more the 800mm should be ideal over the 600mm. I love my RF400 as many of you know so if they just added a 2x or whatever they did
...Show more

Charles Glatzer said something that reverberated with me. quoting him
"50 goes into 800mm 16 times."
I quote that because 50mm is traditionally my walk around lens and it kept falling down my list for the RF.

I was at my dealer today and ended up purchasing the 50 (which will be my 6th RF lens).

I also placed an order for my 5th RF lens. If I reverse what Charles Glatzer said in his video 50mm times 16 equals my 5th RF lens. You can do the math.

Resitence for me was futile. The pain will be less as it is a lot lighter and closer focusing than my EF version which I used a few times handheld last year.



Mar 03, 2022 at 06:08 PM
gkinard1952
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p.10 #17 · p.10 #17 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


lighthound wrote:
Because it is that simple. These are 800mm & 1200mm lenses, period. Who cares about MTF's or optical formulas and weather or not it's the same 2x TC grouping that was simply slapped, super glued or duct taped to them or whatever the latest cute term used by the competition.
When is the last time you saw an amazing image posted on one of the presentation boards where the first thought you had was...
"Wow! What an incredible shot! But to bad the image was captured using a lens that showed poor MTF chart data."

And thank you for reinforcing
...Show more

Actually when i go over to the Sony 600mm lens and the A-1 photos. I can see an immediate difference in sharpness.
The photos seem to pop , not trying to cause problems. But, I am thinking of switching , either Nikon or Sony. Only reason I have not switched yet is because of the A1. Personally I would not buy any of the RF big whites.



Mar 03, 2022 at 06:19 PM
arbitrage
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p.10 #18 · p.10 #18 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


gkinard1952 wrote:
Actually when i go over to the Sony 600mm lens and the A-1 photos. I can see an immediate difference in sharpness.
The photos seem to pop , not trying to cause problems. But, I am thinking of switching , either Nikon or Sony. Only reason I have not switched yet is because of the A1. Personally I would not buy any of the RF big whites.


I've shot 600GM back to back with 600III (same optics as RF 600) and I think the two lenses are on par. 600III actually has more magnification so Sony is cheating me

I'll have the RF600 in hand in April so will compare that but only thing is I won't have the R5 higher MP to shoot it on and will be using R3.

Curious why you say you haven't switched yet because of the A1? That would be my entire reason to switch...not the 600GM lens.



Mar 03, 2022 at 06:45 PM
Vince Maidens
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p.10 #19 · p.10 #19 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


arbitrage wrote:
I think the biggest impediment to acquiring that 1200 is finding a bag that can accommodate its length That thing is over half a meter long


It will JUST fit in the fstop Shinn DuraDiamond with the Cine ICU...just



Mar 04, 2022 at 07:15 AM
gkinard1952
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p.10 #20 · p.10 #20 · Official: Canon RF 800mm f/5.6 L IS and 1200mm f/8 L IS Lenses


arbitrage wrote:
I've shot 600GM back to back with 600III (same optics as RF 600) and I think the two lenses are on par. 600III actually has more magnification so Sony is cheating me

I'll have the RF600 in hand in April so will compare that but only thing is I won't have the R5 higher MP to shoot it on and will be using R3.

Curious why you say you haven't switched yet because of the A1? That would be my entire reason to switch...not the 600GM lens.


Meant the R1 not the A1.
And I have not gone to Sony yet because I am not a fan of 600mm lenses.
Been saving my penny's so I will wait just a little longer.



Mar 04, 2022 at 07:35 AM
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