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Dr Al
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · A7RV


I'm sure COVID has played a role in their release schedule. It's not just chips, it's having engineers in a room designing the new body and programmers coding and debugging the body. A lot of that means close contact.

What i would suspect is 100mp. Why? Sony already makes a sensor of this size. With pixels this small Sony could find a way to do full frame reduced size pictures (like they do with APS-C on the ARiv now). Possibly by doing something like shutting off half the sensors and filling in the missing information by copying the pixel next to it. It could give the option of 40mp or 50mp when 100mp isn't needed. Think of having the option of watching 1080p on a 4k TV.

I would expect that it'll also have upgraded memory and possibly focus bracketing. I don't know when it'll be announced. I think if the RIII starts to get harder to find it'll be a sign that Sony has stopped making them and doesn't want to have 3 R bodies on the market.



Feb 09, 2022 at 11:39 AM
Dultimate
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · A7RV


Wow! Some of you guys are just in love with this 100 Mpix idea. Despite the big gulf between 50 (A1) and 100, we're just stuck on 100. Regardless of all the arguments put forth in this thread and others I don't see why Sony would decide on 80-100 Mpix is the next option because there's a very niche want/need for such massive amount of pixels.

And let's think about it. Just because they can doesn't mean they should or will. They may have the tech but they have to leave room to upgrade and give us a reason to buy cameras every year. Coming out with such a massive amount is kinda hitting the ceiling of where we can go with these cameras in that regard, no?

You would think that we aren't getting good enough pictures with 24-60 Mpix options or something.



Feb 09, 2022 at 01:59 PM
onthebeam
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · A7RV


I hope it has one of those nifty silver-knobbed self timers on the front. My Nikkormat FS had that. Grey rewind knob, too.


Feb 09, 2022 at 02:10 PM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · A7RV


I think it makes more sense to look at the pixel dimension than to just throw big round numbers around.

As Sony have increased their R series cameras from 36 > 42 > 50 > 60 (yes I know that's not in order and I'm including the A1) the pixel pitch has changed like this; 4.89um > 4.51 > 4.16 > 3.76 the shrink each time is 0.924 > 0.921 > 0.902

(Note that I'm using the > sign to mean "to" not greater than)

So if the shrink follows the trend (ie in the range of 0.91 - 0.92) then I think the next iteration is more likely to be a ~72mp sensor with a shrink of 0.917 and a pixel pitch of 3.44um



Feb 09, 2022 at 02:30 PM
Dultimate
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · A7RV


mcbroomf wrote:
I think it makes more sense to look at the pixel dimension than to just throw big round numbers around.

As Sony have increased their R series cameras from 36 > 42 > 50 > 60 (yes I know that's not in order and I'm including the A1) the pixel pitch has changed like this; 4.89um > 4.51 > 4.16 > 3.76 the shrink each time is 0.924 > 0.921 > 0.902

(Note that I'm using the > sign to mean "to" not greater than)

So if the shrink follows the trend (ie in the range of 0.91 - 0.92) then I
...Show more

Now these are numbers I can believe in. 72 is not too high and only a slight increase over the RIV. The pixel dimensions, while not meaning anything to me, does seem like it's somewhere in the ballpark what they are using to get Mpix instead of arbitrary numbers just for the sake of numbers.

72, or something thereabouts, or staying with the current number of 60 makes more sense to me. There's probably some gains that can be garnished from the current 60 sensor in terms of dynamic range or whatever.



Feb 09, 2022 at 03:00 PM
gocolts
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · A7RV


lattesweden wrote:
I'm the same boat. I like to have three bodys for some projects so I slice it like this: One high res somewhat slower body mainly for landscapes/cityscapes etc. One fast one, with best possible AF for long tele lenses and a compact body primary for daily use. At the moment I am on an A7RII, A9 and A7C. Not sure how to move along from there, but I have found that it is hard to plan ahead since one never knows what comes out next. So just stay in the moment and do the best you can right now.
...Show more

Same here with currently having an A7R4 & A9. Sure I could sell both and get an A1 with some cash thrown in, but really when I need the MP I don't typically need the FPS or AF of the A9, and when I need the FPS & AF of the A9, 24 MP files are fine. And on big trips I take both in case something happens to one. Each person's needs are different though.




Feb 09, 2022 at 03:56 PM
Richard-BB
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · A7RV


FROGFISH

Living in Shanghai?



Feb 10, 2022 at 02:37 AM
Dr Al
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · A7RV


I picked 100mp simply because I think Sony is in a race with Canon (which is also rumored to be working on a 100mp FF body). They already have a FF 100mp sensor so it's more a case of making it work than starting from scratch. The sensor they have isn't as advanced as what's used in the A1 but I don't think that's needed for the 7R line as they aren't fast focusing action type cameras. I never said I had any use for 100mp (which is why I got the A7R iv).

I think Sony sees Canon as the top dog in the FF camera body market. Sony could have just left the 70-200mm lens alone. But they didn't. They turned a good lens into probably the best 70-200mm of any brand. But it's just a guess, like everyone else here.



Feb 10, 2022 at 05:51 AM
lattesweden
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · A7RV


mcbroomf wrote:
I think it makes more sense to look at the pixel dimension than to just throw big round numbers around.

As Sony have increased their R series cameras from 36 > 42 > 50 > 60 (yes I know that's not in order and I'm including the A1) the pixel pitch has changed like this; 4.89um > 4.51 > 4.16 > 3.76 the shrink each time is 0.924 > 0.921 > 0.902

(Note that I'm using the > sign to mean "to" not greater than)

So if the shrink follows the trend (ie in the range of 0.91 - 0.92) then I
...Show more

I am at work so my brain is a little to split with other things to back track the mathematics needed to continue this interesting observation. What is the next step after 72 then, and after that? How many steps (generations) until we have reached 100 Mpix?



Feb 10, 2022 at 06:33 AM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · A7RV


Well if Sony stick to say 0.915 shrinks (pitch of the pixel) for each next gen hi-res sensor then it would be;

72
86
102

Just the previous gen divided by 0.915 squared

We have to remember that noise is the pixel shrink killer, so at some point without a "new tech" it will become unacceptable. Of course cell phones (as well as some other non FF cameras) have smaller pixels but some of them use noise reduction as part of the "AI". At least I assume they do, I don't own a cellphone to test this, but images I've seen are not destroyed by noise.



Feb 10, 2022 at 06:47 AM
 


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lattesweden
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · A7RV


lattesweden wrote:
Sony favorite months to launch bodys in are April and October (yes I have done the statistic research to come to that conclusion).

SAR says they have sources saying that Sony won't, due to the chip shortage, launch any FF bodys in the first half of 2022, so then October is most likely. That would also let the A7RIVa have been on the market for 1 year and a quarter until it gets superseded.

As to specs, I guess forth generation body, mech shutter, no stacked sensor at about 80-100 Mpix.

Why not the 61 Mpix again? It looks like that was
...Show more

Here are some more info I have gathered over time on the sensor topic:

If we first quick take some sales numbers, Mirrorless (no DSLRs in these numbers) 2019 and 2020 crop and FF combined per brand:

2019
Sony: about 1.65 million
Canon: about 900 000
Nikon: about 250 000
Panasonic: about 250 000

2020
Sony: about 1.2 million
Canon: about 1.1 million
Nikon and Panasonic about the same as 2019

2021
Not in yet.

Leica and Sigma are so small they don't have their own lines in the freely available sales information.

The above numbers are picked from my memory and can be a little different in the real world but not by much so this paints the world view quite well. Though we don't know how the FF/crop division is unfortunately.

Canon makes their own sensors and have just learned to make BSI and stacked ones (R3). Canon has so far not sold their sensors to anyone else in the mirrorless world.

Leica/Panasonic have used Tower Semiconductor (former TowerJazz, once fully owned by Panasonic, then 50%, now 0% Panasonic ownership) for some of the sensors like the 47 Mpix one. How Tower operates the sensor side of their business I don't know.

My information says that the Sony A7III and A7C, the Nikon Z6, the Leica SL2S, the Sigma fp and the Panasonic S1 are all using the same base Sony IMX410 sensor, just slightly altered for each manufacturer. Most are with PDAF but in the L-mount world only CDAF.

Leica uses another 24 Mpix sensor in the SL and Q, my information says from TowerJazz.
The Leica Q2, SL2 and Panasonic S1R has a 47 Mpix sensor also from TowerJazz.

The Sigma fp L uses the same Sony 61 Mpix sensor as the A7RIV. So does the Leica M11 and I think we soon will see a Q3 and SL3 with it in as well as a Panasonic S1RII.

Also Nikon (Z7III) is rumored to come with a 61 Mpix sensor, not unlikely the Sony one.

At Sony sensor division one can either buy any of the off the shelf sensors they offer (see their website for models). Those can be slightly altered like if one wants CDAF pixels or not, microlens configurations, AA-filter or not etc.

One can also sit down with Sonys sensor engineers and cook together one owns sensor from technologies and intellectual properties that Sony has rights too. Basically one can make a sensor from what is in Sonys toolbox. The reason one gets Sony engineers to help out is because what fits well together and not from the stuff that is in the Toolbox is something that they know. Nikons Z7 sensor is believed to be made through this custom order procedure.

Sony does not allow a customer to bring their own tech or patents etc that Sony don't have in their toolbox and Sony also don't manufacture other companies sensor designs.

If one does a custom sensor at Sonys sensor division they can either use it exclusively or let others (later) use it as well and then get some sort of cost reduction/kick back for those sales.

Sonys camera division is a customer at the sensor division, just like Nikon and the others.

One can only get what is available for production in the toolbox for the sensor size one wants. Sensor tech trickles downward and up in size so FF is almost on the end of the line.

Sonys camera division can not get tech before the others. It is however believed that Sonys camera division has a better info flow on what is nearing production possible on FF and preliminary specs and by that can get a head start to create the interfacing camera circuitry and by that often be first out on the market with the new tech.

I haven't seen any fullframe mirrorless camera in the recent years that has a sensor from someone else than the three above mentioned companies.

Samsung could probably do very good FF sensors (that they can do good APS-C sensors for mirrorless we know already from their now decommissioned system), but they don't seem to have an interest in that or if it is the other way around - the Japanese centered camera business don't want to buy from them.

From what I have pieced together from many data sources (so errors might occur):
Leica SL uses a TowerJazz 24 Mpix, same as in the Q.
Leica SL2 uses a TowerJazz 47 Mpix, same as in the Q2 and Panasonic S1R.
Leica SL2-S uses the Sony IMX410 (same as in A7III).
Leica M11, most likely the Sony 61 Mpix one or a variant of it.
Panasonic S1 uses the Sony IMX410 (same as in A7III).
Panasonic S1H uses the Sony IMX410 (same as in A7III).
Panasonic S1R uses a TowerJazz 47 Mpix, same as in the Leica Q2 and SL2.
Panasonic S5 uses for me an unknown sensor, might be the Sony one from A7/A7II etc
Sigma fp uses the Sony IMX410 (same as in A7III).
Sigma fp L uses Sonys 61 Mpix sensor, same as in A7RIV.
Nikon Z6/Z6II uses the Sony IMX410 (same as in A7III).
Nikon Z7/Z7II uses a special built sensor, most likely from Sony.
Nikon Z5 uses a Sony sensor, same as in A7, A7II and Nikon D610, 750 and others.
Nikon Z9 uses a special built sensor, maybe from Sony, but there are also so many differences from Sony normal tech in DR and not being able to do RAW at 30 fps etc so maybe it is someone else that made it. Tough not many can do stacked BSI.
Canon R uses a Canon sensor, same as in 5DIV.
Canon RP uses a Canon sensor, same as in 6DII.
Canon R6 uses a Canon sensor, same as in1DXIII.
Canon R5 uses a Canon sensor.
Canon R3 uses a Canon sensor, their first with BSI and also stacked.

Sony actually already has a 100 Mpix sensor since 2019:
https://www.eoshd.com/news/sony-develops-full-frame-100-megapixel-sensor-with-6k-video-for-consumer-cameras/

I really must stress that the above info is pieced together from several sources of unknown quality but they seemed believable and errors therefor might have sneaked in. I do wish the camera/sensor business was more transparent with how it works so we wouldn't need to puzzle together crumbles like this. If you have any more info, corrections to the above etc, please fill in.




Feb 10, 2022 at 07:04 AM
lattesweden
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · A7RV


mcbroomf wrote:
Well if Sony stick to say 0.915 shrinks (pitch of the pixel) for each next gen hi-res sensor then it would be;

72
86
102

Just the previous gen divided by 0.915 squared

We have to remember that noise is the pixel shrink killer, so at some point without a "new tech" it will become unacceptable. Of course cell phones (as well as some other non FF cameras) have smaller pixels but some of them use noise reduction as part of the "AI". At least I assume they do, I don't own a cellphone to test this, but images I've seen are not destroyed by
...Show more

Thanks!

So then:
A7RV = 72 Mpix
A7RVI = 86 Mpix
A7RVII = 102 Mpix (funnily Sony actually have one such sensor already: https://www.eoshd.com/news/sony-develops-full-frame-100-megapixel-sensor-with-6k-video-for-consumer-cameras/ )

Anyway, if Sony gets to decide the pace it might take three more generations before reaching 100 Mpix. With the average time between R bodys about two years it would be a bit before 2030 we would get there. But Canon is also in this "chicken race" and I guess both companies wants to be the one that breaks the 100 Mpix barrier.

What I am more interested in than resolution on its own is better (smoother) gradients. Resolution can help with that but more colors as well, so a true 16-bit pipeline all the way into the RAW file would be beneficiary.

I know that the common belief is that a 12 Mpix sensor is better in noise performance than a 61 Mpix one, but looking at DXOmark and sort the list on noise performance shows that they are very similar in performance. The original A7S is high up but it doesn't have IBIS which might help with cooling, the A7SII which has IBIS and the same sensor is further down in the list. And many high res bodys are high up and at the top of the list the differences are rather small.

Also I understand that DXO Photolab with the very good noise reduction algorithms it has, does a better job on high resolution sensors due to more data to work with.



Feb 10, 2022 at 07:17 AM
KE_Photo
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · A7RV


For me, the question is - what could they possibly put in to an A7RV that would motivate me to want to sell my A7RIV and upgrade?

It's because the A7RIV is such a great camera it makes it hard to beat. (for my use) Faster? I personally don't really need that. More resolution? Nice to have, but even with the fine pixel level editing/retouching work I do, the "4" is quite good. Focus upgrades - nice - but again I'm not struggling here.

Guess what I'm saying is - go ahead Sony - do something outrageously brilliant and unexpected to motivate me.

Edited on Feb 10, 2022 at 11:04 AM · View previous versions



Feb 10, 2022 at 09:40 AM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · A7RV


KE_Photo wrote:
For me, the question is - what could they possibly put in to an A7RV that would motivate me to want to sell my A7RIV and upgrade?

It's because the A7RIV is such a great camera it makes it hard to beat. (for my use) Faster? I personally don't really need that. More resolution? Nice to have, but even with pixel level editing/retouching work I do the "4" is quite good. Focus upgrades - nice - but again I'm not struggling here.

Guess what I'm saying is - go ahead Sony - do something outrageously brilliant and unexpected to motivate me.
...Show more

Same here. With an A1 and an R4 (never sure which is backup) even with a 44" printer I don't feel the need for more pixels, so Sony have a tough sell to make me want to upgrade either.



Feb 10, 2022 at 10:10 AM
gocolts
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · A7RV


mcbroomf wrote:
Same here. With an A1 and an R4 (never sure which is backup) even with a 44" printer I don't feel the need for more pixels, so Sony have a tough sell to make me want to upgrade either.


Yea my "needs" related to an upgraded camera body were solved with a used A9. I also can't see the need for more than 61MP. Actually that 61MP sensor put into an A7c sized body might encourage me to switch things up for ease of travel.

Like you it'd take something revolutionary to motivate me to make any body changes at this point.



Feb 10, 2022 at 10:31 AM
Dr Al
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · A7RV


KE_Photo wrote:
For me, the question is - what could they possibly put in to an A7RV that would motivate me to want to sell my A7RIV and upgrade?

It's because the A7RIV is such a great camera it makes it hard to beat. (for my use) Faster? I personally don't really need that. More resolution? Nice to have, but even with pixel level editing/retouching work I do the "4" is quite good. Focus upgrades - nice - but again I'm not struggling here.

Guess what I'm saying is - go ahead Sony - do something outrageously brilliant and unexpected to motivate me.
...Show more

I think the question is what can Sony do that will get the A7R iii owners to upgrade. The jump between the R ii and R iii was fixing most of the issues the R ii had (like poor battery life) but it really wasn't a big jump to get people to need to upgrade. The R iv was a jump up in sensor size from the R ii as well as some other new features so upgrading made more sense (than for someone with the R iii). So the R v will have to be enough of an upgrade to tempt R iii owners.



Feb 10, 2022 at 10:35 AM
chez
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · A7RV


Dr Al wrote:
I think the question is what can Sony do that will get the A7R iii owners to upgrade. The jump between the R ii and R iii was fixing most of the issues the R ii had (like poor battery life) but it really wasn't a big jump to get people to need to upgrade. The R iv was a jump up in sensor size from the R ii as well as some other new features so upgrading made more sense (than for someone with the R iii). So the R v will have to be enough of an
...Show more

But letís not forget there are new photogs entering this hobby every day. Itís not only the upgrades that Sony targets.



Feb 10, 2022 at 10:51 AM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · A7RV


chez wrote:
But letís not forget there are new photogs entering this hobby every day. Itís not only the upgrades that Sony targets.


Also Sony is trying to attract high end user crossover from Nikon/Canon, or bring back users who've switched.

To add one more note to the MP sensor size. I deliberately added the 50mp A1 sensor size in the progression even though it's not from a 7R body, nor in the time progression, but if you remove it the shrink in pixel pitch from R3 to R4 is 0.83. If you use that number then the change from a 60MP sensor would go all the way to an 89mp sensor. Room for thought ...




Feb 10, 2022 at 10:59 AM
RomanMF
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · A7RV


I think I'm going to end up grabbing a used A7RIV or A7RIVa in the next month or so. I don't think I want to wait until 2023 or pay $4,000 for new menus, lol. For context, I have an ancient A7RII which is SLOOOOOOOOOW.


Feb 10, 2022 at 04:18 PM
TravelinBriNY
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · A7RV


A7RIV was never updated with bird AF, correct?


Feb 10, 2022 at 09:42 PM
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