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SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review

  
 
nehemiahphoto
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p.7 #1 · p.7 #1 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


freaklikeme wrote:
True for stills, but their cine Supreme line shows they do still care about optics. They aren't lenses I could ever justify owning, but, man, are they stunning.


Following the money! I know they are still active with industrial applications too. Do you have a link showing their cini supreme lines or such? Going by Zeiss’ page, some of the specs I’d love to see—like the 18/1.4.



May 19, 2022 at 11:48 AM
freaklikeme
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p.7 #2 · p.7 #2 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


nehemiahphoto wrote:
Following the money! I know they are still active with industrial applications too. Do you have a link showing their cini supreme lines or such? Going by Zeiss’ page, some of the specs I’d love to see—like the 18/1.4.


The specs can be found here:

https://www.zeiss.com/consumer-products/us/cinematography/supreme-prime-lenses.html#data

The 18 is 5lbs of lens.

This short was shot to promote the Venice 2 and all of the outdoor scenes were shot in available light with the Supreme Radiance variants (with the T* blue coatings for flare without a big loss of contrast). I think they used the Leica M.08 50/0.95 for the studio scenes.






May 19, 2022 at 06:05 PM
nehemiahphoto
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p.7 #3 · p.7 #3 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


freaklikeme wrote:
The specs can be found here:

https://www.zeiss.com/consumer-products/us/cinematography/supreme-prime-lenses.html#data

The 18 is 5lbs of lens.

This short was shot to promote the Venice 2 and all of the outdoor scenes were shot in available light with the Supreme Radiance variants (with the T* blue coatings for flare without a big loss of contrast). I think they used the Leica M.08 50/0.95 for the studio scenes.





Yes, I know that link/page, and how beefy those lenses are. Would love to see a smaller stills version of some, like that 18/1.4.

Thanks for the video—that’s what I wanted to see.



May 23, 2022 at 02:57 PM
bjhurley
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p.7 #4 · p.7 #4 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


The cine Supremes were used for cinematographer John Brawley's tests of the Ursa Mini 12K cinema camera a few years back:

https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2020/07/16/it-goes-to-12k/

It includes videos as well as stills grabbed from the video, plus an interesting exploration of the camera itself.



May 23, 2022 at 03:29 PM
Desmolicious
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p.7 #5 · p.7 #5 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


Funny how this thread went from discussing a $200 lens to $20,000 lenses!


May 23, 2022 at 03:34 PM
freaklikeme
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p.7 #6 · p.7 #6 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


Desmolicious wrote:
Funny how this thread went from discussing a $200 lens to $20,000 lenses!


Sorry. I am the master of pulling threads off-topic. I will leave this be now.



May 23, 2022 at 04:50 PM
Desmolicious
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p.7 #7 · p.7 #7 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


freaklikeme wrote:
Sorry. I am the master of pulling threads off-topic. I will leave this be now.


We had 6 pages of discussing a $200 lens that comes with a weird deep filter thread, off kilter construction, and bits falling off, so I enjoyed the distraction of reading about lenses from a world I did not know existed!



May 23, 2022 at 05:25 PM
genji
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p.7 #8 · p.7 #8 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


Desmolicious wrote:
We had 6 pages of discussing a $200 lens that comes with a weird deep filter thread, off kilter construction, and bits falling off, so I enjoyed the distraction of reading about lenses from a world I did not know existed!


At least the Syoptic 50/1.1 is relatively cheap. Discussions of off-kilter construction and bits falling off usually concern MS Optics lenses which are way more expensive.



May 23, 2022 at 05:54 PM
nehemiahphoto
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p.7 #9 · p.7 #9 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


genji wrote:
At least the Syoptic 50/1.1 is relatively cheap. Discussions of off-kilter construction and bits falling off usually concern MS Optics lenses which are way more expensive.


Not to mention the Syoptic is ergonomically pleasant too.

And Brad, I always encourage a solid detail (or at least entertaining). Keep it up lol



May 23, 2022 at 05:56 PM
bjhurley
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p.7 #10 · p.7 #10 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


nehemiahphoto wrote:
And Brad, I always encourage a solid detail (or at least entertaining). Keep it up lol


Haha, well, just one more note (from another Brad) on the Zeiss Cine Supreme line: John Brawley said that while they are not the same design, the Otus line comes quite close to the Supremes in terms of image quality and rendering. So we can at least knock a bit off the cost differential. Cine lenses are always more expensive than stills lenses due to their more rigorous requirements (e.g., there should be no focus breathing, they need to be individually calibrated to T-stops, etc.), and most cinematographers rent lenses as needed rather than buying them.



May 24, 2022 at 03:48 AM
 


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Desmolicious
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p.7 #11 · p.7 #11 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


genji wrote:
At least the Syoptic 50/1.1 is relatively cheap. Discussions of off-kilter construction and bits falling off usually concern MS Optics lenses which are way more expensive.


When you deal with boutique products, the way they fall apart makes them stand out as unique items.



May 24, 2022 at 09:45 AM
nehemiahphoto
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p.7 #12 · p.7 #12 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


bjhurley wrote:
Haha, well, just one more note (from another Brad) on the Zeiss Cine Supreme line: John Brawley said that while they are not the same design, the Otus line comes quite close to the Supremes in terms of image quality and rendering. So we can at least knock a bit off the cost differential. Cine lenses are always more expensive than stills lenses due to their more rigorous requirements (e.g., there should be no focus breathing, they need to be individually calibrated to T-stops, etc.), and most cinematographers rent lenses as needed rather than buying them.


Lol—the Brads! Do you know how the cine’s differ from Oti other than housing? I wonder if the optics are different or just color corrected. FWIW, I think the 100/1.4 has the most lovely draw of the 28/55/85/100/135 APO, but those type of lenses are no longer on my list.

Edited on May 24, 2022 at 02:17 PM · View previous versions



May 24, 2022 at 01:55 PM
bjhurley
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p.7 #13 · p.7 #13 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


nehemiahphoto wrote:
Lol—the Brads! Do you know how the cine’s differ from Oti other than housing?


I haven't shot any of these lenses (Zeiss Supremes or Otus) so I can only go by what the cinematographer John Brawley has written, but he says they are very similar (FYI, these links work when I paste them in my browser but clicking on them appears to generate an error):

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=147010

Key excerpt: "If you want a modern lens that totally gives you a GREAT look on the 12K then the Zeiss Otus are exceptional. You can get them in EF or Nikon mount and get them cinemodded and they are basically the same as the very expensive Zeiss supremes at a fraction of the cost, but still expensive."

When he says "basically the same" I assume he's referring to image quality as opposed to lens construction.

Also here he refers to the Otus as the "stills equivalent" of the Supremes:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=117834&start=200#p650905

Again I think he's talking about image quality from his perspective, as he has used both.



May 24, 2022 at 02:13 PM
freaklikeme
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p.7 #14 · p.7 #14 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


@nehemiahphoto I agree with what Brad quoted from Brawley, though my experience is much more limited. When we demo'd the Supremes at work, the rep told us the 29 and 100 share a lot in common with the Otus 28 and 100, but the rest were very different. That was shown in comparing the 85's, where the Supreme was more even tempered across the frame. It was a minor difference, and less evident when using a super 35 frame, but it was enough to tell they weren't the same design. The Supreme 135 blew my APO-Sonnar 135 away. From wide open, the Supreme has more contrast with perfectly corrected SA, and it has more than a stop, close to a stop and half, better transmission. That shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who has used the newer Otus lenses and the Sonnar. People like to pretend the Sonnar should be an Otus lens, and I know there have been quotes from Zeiss marketing perpetuating that idea, but the Sonnar, while a superb lens, doesn't objectively measure up to either the Otus or the Supreme lines.


May 24, 2022 at 05:37 PM
nehemiahphoto
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p.7 #15 · p.7 #15 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


freaklikeme wrote:
@nehemiahphoto@ I agree with what Brad quoted from Brawley, though my experience is much more limited. When we demo'd the Supremes at work, the rep told us the 29 and 100 share a lot in common with the Otus 28 and 100, but the rest were very different. That was shown in comparing the 85's, where the Supreme was more even tempered across the frame. It was a minor difference, and less evident when using a super 35 frame, but it was enough to tell they weren't the same design. The Supreme 135 blew my APO-Sonnar 135 away. From wide
...Show more

Thanks for the info--interesting to me and makes sense. I am not involved with the video aspect of the industry, but there's so much overlap at this point I always appreciate knowing. I have also not shot 135 APO Sonnar, but I have seen many shooters treat it was a honorary Otus. I didn't realize it wasn't up to snuff.



May 24, 2022 at 09:35 PM
freaklikeme
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p.7 #16 · p.7 #16 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


nehemiahphoto wrote:
Thanks for the info--interesting to me and makes sense. I am not involved with the video aspect of the industry, but there's so much overlap at this point I always appreciate knowing. I have also not shot 135 APO Sonnar, but I have seen many shooters treat it was a honorary Otus. I didn't realize it wasn't up to snuff.


Anytime. I forced myself to crash-course in video to change professions, and it has been a fun and wild ride. Compared to what's happening in video, the stills market looks anemic. If you've got a problem with video, someone, somewhere, is already working on a solution.

The Supremes do live up to their name, but the chief thing I've learned over the past three years is that what makes for a very exciting video lens translates to a transparent stills experience, but not necessarily the most exciting. In general, their focus roll-off is designed to be so gentle from about three meters out, it's enough to convince the eye more is in acceptable focus than the depth allows. It's an important trick for cine lenses, where speed is paramount and DPs like to move the camera a lot. It can be very handy for stills, particularly if you're trying to get a group shot two rows deep in available light, but it's also limiting. They also generally differentiate themselves with flatter fields at all distances and much lower resolution fall-off on the outer frame, even if that means accepting slightly lower overall resolution to maintain consistency. I remember people found it laughable the Otus 100 advertised lower resolution than the Sigma and Nikon 105s, but the 100 is far better at the edges than either of the others from wide open, and I assume that comes from it's Supreme DNA.

Where the APO-Sonnar 135 is an objectively inferior lens compared to the Supreme, I'd rather have it for stills. Wide open, it's got just the right amount of SA to be pleasingly gentle for portraits, but not so gentle that it loses it's strong subject definition and its lovely Sonnar bokeh. The resolution fall-off at the edges and the increased vignetting help with that. Stop it down to f/4 or greater and you get objective perfection. It's exactly the lens I want it to be, so I'm very thankful they didn't push for Otus or Supreme level performance (or labeling and pricing).



May 25, 2022 at 05:35 AM
genji
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p.7 #17 · p.7 #17 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


Very, very interesting. Thank you.

freaklikeme wrote:
Anytime. I forced myself to crash-course in video to change professions, and it has been a fun and wild ride. Compared to what's happening in video, the stills market looks anemic. If you've got a problem with video, someone, somewhere, is already working on a solution.

The Supremes do live up to their name, but the chief thing I've learned over the past three years is that what makes for a very exciting video lens translates to a transparent stills experience, but not necessarily the most exciting. In general, their focus roll-off is designed to be so gentle from about three
...Show more



May 25, 2022 at 05:42 PM
nehemiahphoto
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p.7 #18 · p.7 #18 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


freaklikeme wrote:
Anytime. I forced myself to crash-course in video to change professions, and it has been a fun and wild ride. Compared to what's happening in video, the stills market looks anemic. If you've got a problem with video, someone, somewhere, is already working on a solution.

The Supremes do live up to their name, but the chief thing I've learned over the past three years is that what makes for a very exciting video lens translates to a transparent stills experience, but not necessarily the most exciting. In general, their focus roll-off is designed to be so gentle from about three
...Show more

Excellent info—feel free to share more



May 25, 2022 at 08:14 PM
hiepphotog
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p.7 #19 · p.7 #19 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


freaklikeme wrote:
Anytime. I forced myself to crash-course in video to change professions, and it has been a fun and wild ride. Compared to what's happening in video, the stills market looks anemic. If you've got a problem with video, someone, somewhere, is already working on a solution.

The Supremes do live up to their name, but the chief thing I've learned over the past three years is that what makes for a very exciting video lens translates to a transparent stills experience, but not necessarily the most exciting. In general, their focus roll-off is designed to be so gentle from about three
...Show more

Very interesting first-hand observations. I think dialing in the right amount of SA (right amount is also subjective) is super hard, even with the computer simulation, for the entire series. I imagine by doing so might interfere with the max resolution you can achieve at f/4-f/8. Sony did it with 2 lenses, the GM 85 and 24. They must have given up after that to go with the easier route and more recognizable qualities like sharpness, color correction, etc. (just like Canikon). I personally would like a more well thought out, purpose build line-up with top chart sharpness at all apertures, well corrected, bokeh be damned WA and UWA. For wide normal and normal, a more balanced build with a slight lean toward bokeh and rendering would be preferable. Then short tele to slightly longer, just the "right" amount of SA.

Back to this particular lens, I find it very appealing. Too bad the GM 50 just really fulfills all of my needs/wants at this focal length. Something like this at non-popular focal lengths like 100/1.4 or 28/1.4 would be great. I doubt Sony would make any of these any time soon.



May 26, 2022 at 03:37 AM
freaklikeme
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p.7 #20 · p.7 #20 · SYOPTIC 50MM 1.1 Review


nehemiahphoto wrote:
Excellent info—feel free to share more


If you ever get a chance to use an anamorphic lens, even as a stills shooter, take it. It's great fun. They can be a bitch to focus, but they're worth it. Even the more affordable 50 and 75 from SIRUI are very good lenses and produce the familiar cinematic look with decently ovular bokeh and bright flare lines.



May 26, 2022 at 06:09 AM
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