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Official: Leica M11

  
 
Silken
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p.33 #1 · p.33 #1 · Official: Leica M11


Master, ha! Leica needs to master their quality control. It now occurs to me that Leica is 1 for 5 for me since 2009, for cameras working properly straight out of the box. It’s a shame I like shooting with them so much.


May 14, 2022 at 03:33 AM
hmzimelka
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p.33 #2 · p.33 #2 · Official: Leica M11


JPlomley wrote:
I've seen the issue on my M10M and SL2; much much worse on the M10M. Leica's feedback was it was a characteristic of the sensor. WTF!



This is what Leica wrote me after sending them DNG files where the line was slightly visible even in unedited images...


on the image you are referring to as showing a fault, you can see an effect caused by the production process of the sensor. Due to the sensor size, the photolithographic structuring of the surface takes place in two separate exposure steps, one each for the left and right half of the sensor. Therefore, minimal deviations in the behaviour of the treated areas are inevitable and a property of a large image sensor. The tolerances are set so that this is not visible in "normal" photography and image editing. However, the effect may appear especially when using high ISO numbers combined with strong brightening of underexposed image areas in post-processing.[/I]

They said it was within tolerances just by inspecting the DNG files.

The only way around this is to exchange the camera until it's perfect. Leica isn't always on our side when it comes to quality assurance.

I was, for the lack of a better word, a little devastated to return my M10M.



May 14, 2022 at 05:06 AM
hmzimelka
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p.33 #3 · p.33 #3 · Official: Leica M11


Silken wrote:
Master, ha! Leica needs to master their quality control. It now occurs to me that Leica is 1 for 5 for me since 2009, for cameras working properly straight out of the box. It’s a shame I like shooting with them so much.


For me my Leica tally is;
3 Faulty Leica M Monochrom cameras (2014) - Various issues between horrendous rangefinder calibrations and sensor defects.
1 Leica M10 Monochrom (2021) - Rangefinder back-focus (fixed myself) and the sensor bifurcation in the top half of the frame only
2 Leica M11 cameras (2022) - Skew rangefinder frame on the one camera, and a subtle bifurcation. Second had a strong sensor bifurcation.

So I'm at a 6:1 ratio



May 14, 2022 at 05:10 AM
JPlomley
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p.33 #4 · p.33 #4 · Official: Leica M11


hmzimelka wrote:
This is what Leica wrote me after sending them DNG files where the line was slightly visible even in unedited images...

on the image you are referring to as showing a fault, you can see an effect caused by the production process of the sensor. Due to the sensor size, the photolithographic structuring of the surface takes place in two separate exposure steps, one each for the left and right half of the sensor. Therefore, minimal deviations in the behaviour of the treated areas are inevitable and a property of a large image sensor. The tolerances are set so that this
...Show more

Word for word the exact message I received. When I responded insisting I wanted the camera fixed indicating the sensor was not fit for purpose, I received no response. Shame on Leica, and most certainly they have lost any future business from me.



May 14, 2022 at 06:42 AM
airfrogusmc
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p.33 #5 · p.33 #5 · Official: Leica M11


Sorry anyone has problems with their camera. But I have owned 6 digital Leicas over the years and now own M 10 Mono and 2 M 10s and even including the recall of the original Mono and original M-E for sensor replacement I had more problems with my Canons during the same amount of time.


May 14, 2022 at 07:16 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.33 #6 · p.33 #6 · Official: Leica M11


hmzimelka wrote:
For me my Leica tally is;
3 Faulty Leica M Monochrom cameras (2014) - Various issues between horrendous rangefinder calibrations and sensor defects.
1 Leica M10 Monochrom (2021) - Rangefinder back-focus (fixed myself) and the sensor bifurcation in the top half of the frame only
2 Leica M11 cameras (2022) - Skew rangefinder frame on the one camera, and a subtle bifurcation. Second had a strong sensor bifurcation.

So I'm at a 6:1 ratio


Dang. Here's my luck with new Leica purchases since ~2016:

Q Titanium – perfect
Q-P – shutter button issue
Q-P (replacement) – perfect
Q2 – perfect
Q2M – perfect
Q2 Reporter – perfect
M10-P Reporter – perfect if I don't count the fraying Kevlar cladding "by design"
M10-R – perfect
M10-M – sensor bifurcation issue
M10-M (replacement) – perfect
M11 – rangerfinder issues
M11 (replacement) – perfect
SL – perfect
SL2-S – perfect

~22% chance of getting a defective unit or ~1 out of every 5

I probably have had about the same luck with Canon. I had two defective 5D Mark IV bodies. I had an R5 with a misaligned sensor and lockups that Canon said were "normal", but of course my second one was perfect. I had an RF 70-200 2.8 that was either de-centered or had a bad IS unit, and Canon said that was normal, too, and you guessed it, my second copy was perfect.

I have had the best luck with new Fujifilm gear, but others have not, especially with the GF lenses.

One reason I keep coming back to Leica is once I get a good unit, I'm good. M lenses can be lifetime purchases, and even the digital M bodies stay relevant for longer than other brands.

Something else to consider is there is a small subset of us photographers out there who have bad luck with electronics and tend to notice issues others do not. I take that into account when I look back at my history with new camera gear.



May 14, 2022 at 10:05 AM
airfrogusmc
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p.33 #7 · p.33 #7 · Official: Leica M11


I'm a full time pro and really test before i use on a job. I am pretty picky soooo.

The only issues I have had with my Leica's were the (I've had or have original MM, original M-E, M 262, 2 M 10s and an M 10 mono) recall for the sensor replacement for the origianl MM and original M-E which I had done in 2018 IIRC. I also sent one of my M 10s in with a used 90 Cron APO to have them calibrated together. I now keep the 90 on the M 10 most of the time and after a couple of years still going strong.

So many problems with my Canons. Mirror fell out of a 5DII while shooting a job. Was doing work for NATO in 2012 and had a complete shutter fail. Had a 1DsMk III arrive from CPS dead on arrival. This could go on for a while.



Edited on May 14, 2022 at 11:20 AM · View previous versions



May 14, 2022 at 10:53 AM
zhangyue
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p.33 #8 · p.33 #8 · Official: Leica M11


Since my m240p, follow m10p and now m11. I don’t have any of them have QA issues. M11 has firmware issue or occasionally freeze which related to software. My SL2 and SL2S have been flawless too. Overall, I am very happy.


May 14, 2022 at 11:02 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.33 #9 · p.33 #9 · Official: Leica M11


I have never had serious issues with any of my Leica bodies. (M9, M240, M10, M10-P and two M10-Rs). Currently only own a M10-R.
However, My M10 and one of my M10-R bodies required vertical adjustment which I did it myself. No issues with the RF horizontal adjustment so far.



May 14, 2022 at 11:27 AM
1bwana1
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p.33 #10 · p.33 #10 · Official: Leica M11


I have only had 1 Leica M camera, my M10-P. So far I have encountered zero issues.

I just checked my RF calibration. It appears to be fine at 0.7 meters, 3 meters, and infinity. No vertical or horizontal offset. Not sure the proper way to test for accuracy, but here is how I did it. I set to the numbers on the focus ring, and slid the camera into position until the RF looked perfect through the viewfinder. Then I measured the distance with tape measure (except for infinity of course). I used the small white line for setting shutter speed as the center of the camera assuming this is probably close to the focal plane of the sensor. The images at F2 looked spot on in focus. So, the RF rectangle is easy to read, and appears to be spot on with focus at the set labeled distances. Some who are more knowledgeable, and tend toward pixels peeping may find issues. I am not sure. For me, the RF is setting reliable focus when shooting in the real World, and that is what matters to me.

All the buttons and menu items I have used seem to work fine. I am encountering no freezes, Lockups, or other issues in the field when using the camera. Some things seem a little quirky, and not designed for the most convenient operation. But, this is true of all the cameras I have have owned. Maybe Leica has sorted things out through various firmware updates during the time the M10-P has been released. Mine is a pretty recent build of this version of the camera.

I tried to create an image that showed a sensor bifurcation line by shooting frames as described in the Leica comments. I shot high ISO (12500), underexposed images, with a suitable amount of detail in the lower frame, and smooth colored section in the top of the frame. I then pushed in Light Room up to proper exposure. I tested frames that requires 3 stops, 4 stops, and 5 stops of exposure slider. I then tried adding various other sliders at both ends of slider extremes. No matter what I did I could never see a bifurcation line. I will say that even if the line did finally appear under these conditions it would not bother me much. The images were so bad for so many other reasons that they would be totally unusable. If I missed exposure by this much I missed the shot anyway.

So far my very limited experience of only 1 camera has shown a high level of QC in my experience. I am a very pleased Leica customer at this point. I am hoping that reliability over time also proves to be good. I hear repair times are long, and costs are high. Not looking forward to having to deal with that.

My big frustration at this point is having only Voigtlander lenses. I have the 28mm Ultron, the 50mm Nokton, and the 75mm Nokton. I am very pleased with these lenses. But, I still want to acquire a Leica lens to get the whole Leica experience. I am thinking of adding a 35mm Summicron to my collection. It really doesn't make sense to have a 35mm in the lineup, but I don't know of another FL I would get good use out of in my Leica kit. I know, these are rich mans problems.

The M11 is a new camera that seems to be a big leap in technology for Leica. I do hear a number of what seem to be valid complaints regarding QC with this edition of camera. Let's hope that the bugs and issues all get worked out over time as they seem to have been in the M10-P. I may upgrade in a couple of years if they do.




May 14, 2022 at 02:14 PM
 


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Fred Miranda
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p.33 #11 · p.33 #11 · Official: Leica M11


1bwana1 wrote:
My big frustration at this point is having only Voigtlander lenses. I have the 28mm Ultron, the 50mm Nokton, and the 75mm Nokton. I am very pleased with these lenses. But, I still want to acquire a Leica lens to get the whole Leica experience.


That's when it starts to get dangerous.

...for your wallet.




May 14, 2022 at 02:27 PM
1bwana1
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p.33 #12 · p.33 #12 · Official: Leica M11


Fred Miranda wrote:
That's when it starts to get dangerous.

...for your wallet.




!

I am hoping to keep it revenue neutral. I built up a decent collection of Voigtlander E mount lenses for my Sony. But, since I now have the M10-P as my MF platform they are getting no use. I think I can fund the 35 Summilux by selling the e-mounts on. All but my CV 40mm /1.2. I can't part with that one.



May 14, 2022 at 02:32 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.33 #13 · p.33 #13 · Official: Leica M11


1bwana1 wrote:
!

I am hoping to keep it revenue neutral. I built up a decent collection of Voigtlander E mount lenses for my Sony. But, since I now have the M10-P as my MF platform they are getting no use. I think I can fund the 35 Summilux by selling the e-mounts on. All but my CV 40mm /1.2. I can't part with that one.


The only consolation is that Leica lenses tend to hold their value compared to third party alternatives, especially when buying used here at FM.



May 14, 2022 at 02:43 PM
Goodrich
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p.33 #14 · p.33 #14 · Official: Leica M11


My only problem is that my Leica lenses have appreciated in value so much that I don’t want to take them out much more.


May 14, 2022 at 06:03 PM
Mark Sisco
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p.33 #15 · p.33 #15 · Official: Leica M11


Fred, do you have a link or instructional info for how you made the adjustment, including removal and reapplication of the red dot? Thanks!

Fred Miranda wrote:
I have never had serious issues with any of my Leica bodies. (M9, M240, M10, M10-P and two M10-Rs). Currently only own a M10-R.
However, My M10 and one of my M10-R bodies required vertical adjustment which I did it myself. No issues with the RF horizontal adjustment so far.




May 16, 2022 at 11:43 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.33 #16 · p.33 #16 · Official: Leica M11


Mark Sisco wrote:
Fred, do you have a link or instructional info for how you made the adjustment, including removal and reapplication of the red dot? Thanks!



I don't even mess with the red dot. There are 2 screws on the bottom of the camera (one inside the battery comp.). Once removed, the top comes out and you have easy access to the hex screw (behind the red-dot). That is for the vertical alignment. From trial and error, you will be able to align it perfectly.

The other adjustment screw is located inside the mount and allows you to adjust for distance (horizontal adjustment).

Here is a video for you:




May 16, 2022 at 12:02 PM
Mark Sisco
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p.33 #17 · p.33 #17 · Official: Leica M11


Thanks a lot, Fred. I have never run across mention of the two screws and top plate vs. accessing via the dot!


May 16, 2022 at 12:11 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.33 #18 · p.33 #18 · Official: Leica M11


Mark Sisco wrote:
Thanks a lot, Fred. I have never run across mention of the two screws and top plate vs. accessing via the dot!


I use a TR6 bit for the two bottom screws. One is very long.

The vertical & horizontal adjustment can be done with a 2mm allen key.



May 16, 2022 at 01:16 PM
Mark Sisco
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p.33 #19 · p.33 #19 · Official: Leica M11


Fred Miranda wrote:
I use a TR6 bit for the two bottom screws. One is very long.

The vertical & horizontal adjustment can be done with a 2mm hex.


Meant to ask whether this requires complete removal of the top plate, and if there is anything in particular to be cautious of (getting dust under the viewfinder window, etc., for example)?

Thanks again.



May 16, 2022 at 04:13 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.33 #20 · p.33 #20 · Official: Leica M11


Mark Sisco wrote:
Meant to ask whether this requires complete removal of the top plate, and if there is anything in particular to be cautious of (getting dust under the viewfinder window, etc., for example)?

Thanks again.


If you are able to remove the red dot without taking the top off, it's safer.
The problem is that in latest M models, the red dot is glued very well. With some patience it can be removed but I find it easier to remove the top, push the red-dot logo from inside out and then close the top. This is just for the vertical alignment though whenever the RF's two images do not align vertically.



May 16, 2022 at 04:44 PM
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