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Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review

  
 
DavidBM
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


Petegh wrote:
The Sigma 90mm f2.8 isn't a high microcontrast lens to begin with (in fact I think Fred said as much in a prior post somewhere?), so I can understand why the difference may not be obvious; I'm more surprised that you can't detect a difference in your Sigma 85 f1.4 DG DN Art - that lens is a razor, with moderate to high amounts of microcontrast: the tests Lloyd did showed an obvious difference.

Its important to remember that only the focal plane, or close to it, will exhibit microcontrast. The MTF of high frequencies drops off quickly as you move
...Show more

Only compared infinity stuff, for that very reason! But my guess is that the contrast/resolution of the DG DN is so high to start with, that the eye can't detect the theoretical decrease that of course must be there...



Dec 28, 2021 at 04:32 AM
bjornthun
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


DavidBM wrote:
Only compared infinity stuff, for that very reason! But my guess is that the contrast/resolution of the DG DN is so high to start with, that the eye can't detect the theoretical decrease that of course must be there...


I can’t quite understand, which of the two DG DN lenses you mean here.

I have the Sigma 90/2.8 DG DN and I’ve not found it to be lacking in contrast at all.



Dec 28, 2021 at 05:08 AM
genji
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


Petegh wrote:
Yes, let's hope the 75mm f2APO, that Cosina recently patented, is more oriented for landscape shooting, and comes in an E-mount version. Its all very well for Cosina to say, 'just use the M-E adapter', on its telephotos, but then not provide us with a new chipped version of their current adapter - which I think they need to do asap!


To the contrary, not every lens in the universe has to be optimised for landscape shooting. Let’s rather hope that the recently patented CV 75/2 APO is designed with a floating element system—a modern short tele specifically for portrait and street photographers. And that the M-mount version is released first.



Dec 28, 2021 at 05:29 AM
DavidBM
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


bjornthun wrote:
I can’t quite understand, which of the two DG DN lenses you mean here.

I have the Sigma 90/2.8 DG DN and I’ve not found it to be lacking in contrast at all.


I was talking about the 85DGDN in response to the previous poster, but I did the same test with the same result with the 90.
I agree the 90 is not lacking in contrast, though the 85 has a touch more between f2.8 and f4.

I love the 90; it fills a niche (compact high performance tele) that was conspicuously empty.



Dec 28, 2021 at 05:34 AM
Ripolini
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


naturephoto1 wrote:
I am a bit disappointed, I had hoped that the 90mm Apo Skopar was going to replace my Zeiss 85mm ZM. I am not sure how and when I will use which lens at this point.


Thanks Rich. I'm pretty sure I won't buy the 90/2.8 Apo Skopar



Dec 28, 2021 at 05:57 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


Petegh wrote:
Ok, sounds like it was a Leica design constraint then: I must confess I have no experience shooting M bodies, and from a practical point of view, not sure why someone would, versus a Kolari-modded Sony - perhaps you can enlighten me Steve? (better corner performance due to Leica's offset microlenses perhaps?)


I think the number one reason to buy a Leica M camera is that you like to focus using the rangefinder. When using the rangefinder if the lens is too big it blocks the view through the viewfinder making composition more difficult. With practice using a rangefinder is both very quick and fairly accurate. It also is an optical viewfinder that for most lenses let's you see more of the scene than will be in the picture which is useful in many instances for composition. It has it limits but for some of us it is a great way to shoot.



Dec 28, 2021 at 09:56 AM
sandycrane
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


Steve Spencer wrote:
I think the number one reason to buy a Leica M camera is that you like to focus using the rangefinder. When using the rangefinder if the lens is too big it blocks the view through the viewfinder making composition more difficult. With practice using a rangefinder is both very quick and fairly accurate. It also is an optical viewfinder that for most lenses let's you see more of the scene than will be in the picture which is useful in many instances for composition. It has it limits but for some of us it is a great way
...Show more

I'm wondering if the rangefinder is mechanically up to the task of critically focusing a 90mm lens? For example, were the test shots in this thread focused via the rangefinder? If not, is it possible to see comparisons between infinity shots focused using the optical viewfinder vs live view?



Dec 28, 2021 at 10:18 AM
naturephoto1
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


sandycrane wrote:
I'm wondering if the rangefinder is mechanically up to the task of critically focusing a 90mm lens? For example, were the test shots in this thread focused via the rangefinder? If not, is it possible to see comparisons between infinity shots focused using the optical viewfinder vs live view?


For my photos they were taken with my Sony A1 and focus was using magnify to the maximum for focus.

Rich




Dec 28, 2021 at 10:27 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


Steve Spencer wrote:
I agree with this assessment Ron. The left edge crop is mostly bokeh in front of the focus point and we saw that with some other samples this front bokeh looks a bit nervous, but bokeh behind the focus point is quite nice. It would seem that Cosina has slightly under corrected SA with this lens creating better bokeh behind the focus point with a bit worse bokeh in front of the focus point. The lens does quite well with landscapes, but it isn't quite up to the Leica 90 cron AA as we saw in Fred's tests or
...Show more

The Leica-M 90/2 APO is a 24-year-old design! However, before even testing it against the Voigtlander 90/2.8 APO, I knew it would do well in comparison because it outperforms the mighty SL 90/2 APO starting at f/4 and f/5.6 at the very corners. Of course, the SL performs way better wide open and the difference at small apertures is very small. (I would post some crops but it's not really relevant to this review)

The surprise was the Sigma's performance tested here. Even with distortion corrected, in terms of resolution/contrast, it outperforms the Voigtlander 90/2.8 APO anywhere in the image field. It's still better when both are stopped down to f/4 or f/5.6.

Perhaps aside from the slower f/2.8 aperture, Cosina decided to name it APO-Skopar instead of APO-Lanthar, because they knew is was not a reference 85-90mm lens like the other APO-Lanthars. I have tried 3 loan copies of the CV 90/2.8 APO and that's how it performs. There is also an issue when using the rangefinder as 2 out of 3 copies were front-focusing with my rangefinder bodies.

The good news is the identical performance on the M10-R, A7R II (Kolari UT) and A7R IIIA.



Dec 28, 2021 at 02:03 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


Fred Miranda wrote:
The Leica-M 90/2 APO is a 24-year-old design! However, before even testing it against the Voigtlander 90/2.8 APO, I knew it would do well in comparison because it outperforms the mighty SL 90/2 APO starting at f/4 and f/5.6 at the very corners. Of course, the SL performs way better wide open and the difference at small apertures is very small. (I would post some crops but it's not really relevant to this review)

The surprise was the Sigma's performance tested here. Even with distortion corrected, in terms of resolution/contrast, it outperforms the Voigtlander 90/2.8 APO anywhere in the image
...Show more

I agree with everything you said here, but as a Leica M shooter I can't really use the Sigma. I think the performance of the CVM 90 f/2.8 APO has to be kept in context. Cosina in my view didn't mess up the performance of this lens. It does many things very well. First, it is small and doesn't obstruct the 90mm frame lines at all and weighs a super light 241g. Second, it is a more than decent portraits lens with just a bit of uncorrected SA that seems to be a good mix. Sure a faster lens might be preferred but on a Leica M at 90mm, for me at least, with a faster lens I would need the EVF most of the time and couldn't use the rangefinder. With an f/2.8 lens at 90mm I can still use the rangefinder. Third, this lens has really good control of axial CA and the lateral CA that remains clears up very easily in post processing meaning it is a lens with very low worry for color aberration. Fourth, it seems to do very well close up as Rich's samples suggest, and when I get mine I will test it with even closer focus with the macro adapter. I expect because it is a unit focussing lens a bit more SA at wide apertures but still very low axial CA. If I stop it down a bit I expect really good fairly close performance (i.e., 1 to 3 or so). We'll see if that holds up. Fifth, stopped down to f/5.6 is it quite decent at landscape shooting. Certainly it can be beat for landscapes by a number of lenses as the tests here have shown, but it still does a quite decent job. Taken together that is a lot of really good performance across a lot of types of shooting and at a very reasonable price.

That is why for me it will be my travel lens and street shooting lens, if I like it when I get it. It would be part of my 4 lens kit with the Leica 21 SEM, the CVM 28 f/2 II, and the Lecia 50 lux Asph. None of these lenses are perfect but they are all great all rounders and suit my needs for many things. This lens is cheap enough that I can supplement it. For landscapes I can easily add the ZM 85 f/4, which as the test above show is a great lens and is almost as small. I might supplement it for portraits with the Zhong Yi 90 f/1.5, which looks really good in the testing that Bastian did at philipreeve.net. All three of these lenses can also be had for a very reasonable cost. If you are primarily a landscape shooter this lens probably isn't for you, but for lots of other uses it can be a very solid choice.



Dec 28, 2021 at 02:28 PM
 


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1joel1
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


I have a Tele-Elmarit (Fat -1964) and a later model Elmarit and both are exceptional, edge goes to the older TE. I don't see any advantage to this Apo-Skopar for my M9. I think that I'll skip this one and if they make an f/2 Apo Lanthar, then we'll talk.

Thanks all for the examples and conversation,

Joel



Dec 28, 2021 at 02:53 PM
genji
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


Steve Spencer wrote:
I agree with everything you said here, but as a Leica M shooter I can't really use the Sigma. I think the performance of the CVM 90 f/2.8 APO has to be kept in context. Cosina in my view didn't mess up the performance of this lens. It does many things very well. First, it is small and doesn't obstruct the 90mm frame lines at all and weighs a super light 241g. Second, it is a more than decent portraits lens with just a bit of uncorrected SA that seems to be a good mix. Sure a faster lens
...Show more

Very well stated. 28mm and 50mm are now my preferred focal lengths and I have multiple options for each. This small, light CV 90/2.8 will hopefully be an excellent choice for when I don’t want to carry the Tele-Elmarit-M 90/2.8 or Canon LTM 85/1.8. It would mean that I can add the 85/4 to the list of ZM lenses to be sold.



Dec 28, 2021 at 05:36 PM
naturephoto1
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


Steve Spencer wrote:
I agree with everything you said here, but as a Leica M shooter I can't really use the Sigma. I think the performance of the CVM 90 f/2.8 APO has to be kept in context. Cosina in my view didn't mess up the performance of this lens. It does many things very well. First, it is small and doesn't obstruct the 90mm frame lines at all and weighs a super light 241g. Second, it is a more than decent portraits lens with just a bit of uncorrected SA that seems to be a good mix. Sure a faster lens
...Show more


genji wrote:
Very well stated. 28mm and 50mm are now my preferred focal lengths and I have multiple options for each. This small, light CV 90/2.8 will hopefully be an excellent choice for when I don’t want to carry the Tele-Elmarit-M 90/2.8 or Canon LTM 85/1.8. It would mean that I can add the 85/4 to the list of ZM lenses to be sold.


For me I expect to now keep both the Voigtlander 90mm Apo-Skopar as well as the Zeiss 85mm ZM lenses. My trip to Italy may again be back on the table providing Covid does not become a major headache.

If I do travel to Italy for almost a month I am not totally sure which lens to bring, but being in the cities and not only photographing Landscapes, the Voigtlander Apo-Skopar may be the lens to choose to bring plus it is 1 stop faster for times when it is needed.

Rich



Dec 28, 2021 at 06:05 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


Steve Spencer wrote:
I agree with everything you said here, but as a Leica M shooter I can't really use the Sigma. I think the performance of the CVM 90 f/2.8 APO has to be kept in context. Cosina in my view didn't mess up the performance of this lens. It does many things very well. First, it is small and doesn't obstruct the 90mm frame lines at all and weighs a super light 241g. Second, it is a more than decent portraits lens with just a bit of uncorrected SA that seems to be a good mix. Sure a faster lens
...Show more

I agree Steve. there are definitely many "pros" for the Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO. My comment was about the resolution and contrast comparisons. It's not the sharpest lens but it's also not far behind. I'm expecting it to do well in other aspects like flare resistance. We already know distortion is low.

The Leica 90mm f/2 AA would be my ultimate choice for the M-body but it's a much bigger and heavier lens. Perhaps the Voigtlander 90/2.8 APO can be a light companion to it.



Dec 28, 2021 at 11:52 PM
Petegh
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


bjornthun wrote:
I can’t quite understand, which of the two DG DN lenses you mean here.

I have the Sigma 90/2.8 DG DN and I’ve not found it to be lacking in contrast at all.


I think you're confusing macrocontrast with microcontrast.



Dec 29, 2021 at 05:49 AM
Petegh
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


genji wrote:
To the contrary, not every lens in the universe has to be optimised for landscape shooting. Let’s rather hope that the recently patented CV 75/2 APO is designed with a floating element system—a modern short tele specifically for portrait and street photographers. And that the M-mount version is released first.


I don't think the two necessarily need to be mutually exclusive.

I think you'll probably get your wish genji too. When Philip floated the idea some time ago that Cosina might be abandoning the E-mount, I didn't give it much credence, but now I'm starting to think he was right.



Dec 29, 2021 at 05:54 AM
Petegh
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


DavidBM wrote:
Only compared infinity stuff, for that very reason! But my guess is that the contrast/resolution of the DG DN is so high to start with, that the eye can't detect the theoretical decrease that of course must be there...


Yeah, I'm a bit dubious about testing telephoto lenses for microcontrast at infinity: the risk of negative atmospherics is too high. When Lloyd compared using short-midfield planar subjects, the difference between pre and post correction on the 85 DGDN was clearly visible; although Lloyd has the advantage of shooting in rarefied atmospheres, I spose.



Dec 29, 2021 at 06:10 AM
bjornthun
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


Petegh wrote:
I think you're confusing macrocontrast with microcontrast.

No, the Sigma 90/2.8 has excellent contrast whether I view the image as a whole or zoom in on details.
---------------------------------------------

Petegh wrote:
Yeah, I'm a bit dubious about testing telephoto lenses for microcontrast at infinity: the risk of negative atmospherics is too high. When Lloyd compared using short-midfield planar subjects, the difference between pre and post correction on the 85 DGDN was clearly visible; although Lloyd has the advantage of shooting in rarefied atmospheres, I spose.


This still doesn’t preclude the net result from being better than what could be avhieved with opticall distortion correction. It is not a given that optical correction is lossless. Think of what happens when a teleconverter stretches an image in order to do its job.



Dec 29, 2021 at 06:29 AM
hanay78
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


@naturephoto1 thank you very very much for the comparison. I was considering the lens, but I prefer the rendering of the ZM in your photographs.

I am missing a lot my trips to Italy Before of covid I was travelling on vacation there three four times a year. I adore the country. I hope you can finally travel there

I had before the Cron-90 AA. As a sony user I compared it with the lox 85, with the single copies I had, I thought lox was preferable in terms of sharpness, contrast and colors. Lox is pitifully heavier but native.

I also tried elmarit, tele elmarit and summarit in a shop for some moments, to see if I could go for something lighter and smaller. All of them used lenses. I preferred the colors and contrast of the cron. All of this in a sony a7rii.



Dec 29, 2021 at 06:31 AM
naturephoto1
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Skopar Review


Vivek (realvivek) sent me an e-mail and indicated that his Nikon version of the lens on his Nikon Z6 does not perform anything like my M version of the lens on my A1.

This is a partial quote from his e-mail:

"My F mount sample does not behave the way it was reported there.

There is no noticeable LACA neither the lack of edge sharpness on a Nikon Z6.

LACA, color moire etc are clearly part of the M digital camera “character” and “soul”.

Edge softness (A1, Sony cams) is likely from poor M mount samples."



This is from Vivek's second e-mail:

"I am unsure if the M mount lens behaves differently than the F mount ones.

As I said, the LACA and color moire are problems from the Leica cameras.

The only issue I have with my lens is the propensity to flare. Hood does not eliminate it in certain circumstances.
This contributes to the reduced contrast (can be boosted in the post) but sharpness is there.. It is essential to use live view for focusing and you can not rely on the hard infinity stop (as in your ZM Tessar) because of the APD elements. Temperature affects the focus as is the case with the APO Lanthar 50/2 (FE version).

I really do not know if the M mount lenses have issues, Rich.

You do not need the M mount lens?"


So, I am not sure if I should contact Stephen at Cameraquest and indicate there is a problem with my copy and I need to exchange it.

What are the thoughts of our FM members?

Camerquest is presently out of stock for these in Black and they are expected in January. But, if everyone thinks that I should return my copy, I will wait for the replacement especially since I have my Zeiss 85mm f4 ZM which we have seen performs well.

Rich



Dec 29, 2021 at 11:41 AM
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