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Archive 2021 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

Jesse Evans
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

Milan Hutera wrote:
These are lenses that work just fine at 14 fps on 1DXII and they are no different than 70-200 which work just fine at 12fps on R5/6. It's just Canon's usuall cripple game BS.

I'm sorry, how are the lenses no different? What are the exact power requirements to drive them?

You do understand that the 1DXII uses a 10.8v 30Wh battery and the R5 uses a 7.2v ~16Wh battery right? The power limits of the cameras are very different.

Sep 02, 2022 at 01:42 PM

dolina
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

I honestly would not complain about it as Canon's decision to put a limit is to reduce the possibility of mechanical failure by pushing the old lens beyond its design targets.

A lens released in 1999 or before 2012 was never designed to have its aperture motor move at 30fps much less any fps near that speed.

Once Canon stops producing EF bodies, lenses & accessories then any hope of spare parts diminishes to zero.

Last thing I want to happen is for any of EF lenses' components dying because I insisted on 30fps.

Sep 02, 2022 at 09:53 PM

Milan Hutera
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

Jesse Evans wrote:
I'm sorry, how are the lenses no different? What are the exact power requirements to drive them?

You do understand that the 1DXII uses a 10.8v 30Wh battery and the R5 uses a 7.2v ~16Wh battery right? The power limits of the cameras are very different.

Put the IS II supertelephotos on either R5 or 6 and they will shoot at 12 fps.

Sep 03, 2022 at 02:21 AM

dolina
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

Milan Hutera wrote:
Put the IS II supertelephotos on either R5 or 6 and they will shoot at 12 fps.

Year of release of Canon 600mm

- 1988 without IS
- 1999 1st IS
- 2011 2nd IS
- 2018 3rd IS
- 2021 RF with IS

I doubt anyone designing any lens using materials & computers prior to 1999 ever thought of 12fps or even 30fps.

I am very certain Canon tested IS 1 lenses at 30fps and discovered it didnt end well.

Sep 03, 2022 at 03:09 AM

Milan Hutera
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

dolina wrote:
Year of release of Canon 600mm

- 1988 without IS
- 1999 1st IS
- 2011 2nd IS
- 2018 3rd IS
- 2021 RF with IS

I doubt anyone designing any lens using materials & computers prior to 1999 ever thought of 12fps or even 30fps.

I am very certain Canon tested IS 1 lenses at 30fps and discovered it didnt end well.

We are not talking 1st gen IS running at 30 fps. The OP stated they go around 17 fps. I then stated that this is proof Canon intentionally crippled the Mechanical/EFCS performance on R5/6 using 1st gen IS, because they only go around 7 fps, yet have 0 problems shooting full 20 fps in ES. However, ES on R5/6 has extremely limited usefulness when it comes to ball games for example.

Sep 03, 2022 at 11:58 AM

dolina
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

Sep 03, 2022 at 01:41 PM

garyvot
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

Milan Hutera wrote:
We are not talking 1st gen IS running at 30 fps. The OP stated they go around 17 fps. I then stated that this is proof Canon intentionally crippled the Mechanical/EFCS performance on R5/6 using 1st gen IS, because they only go around 7 fps, yet have 0 problems shooting full 20 fps in ES. However, ES on R5/6 has extremely limited usefulness when it comes to ball games for example.

I think a more likely explanation (rather than Canon intentionally crippling the performance of its camera bodies with certain EF lenses) is that there is something different in the way the lens aperture is actuated when in electronic shutter mode vs. mechanical shutter mode that accounts for these differences.

For example, if historically EF lenses were designed stop down fully to the shooting aperture when the shutter fires and then open up to full aperture immediately after to facilitate brightness in the optical viewfinder, this would mean that the lens is continuously working the aperture mechanism during high speed shooting. Older lenses probably lack an aperture mechanism designed for extremely high framerates when working continuously.

The protocol used for electronic shutter actuation may be more like that used for video, in which the lens stops down at the beginning of the burst and remains at the shooting aperture for the duration.

This would explain why older EF lenses (with slower and less robust aperture mechanisms) cannot support high frame rates with mechanical shutter modes but can with electronic shutter.

EF lenses produced in the last 15 years or so have obviously been designed with aperture mechanisms capable of supporting high frame rate cameras like the 1DX series, and therefore are also capable of handling the R3 and R5.

This is a practical and logical explanation for why Canon identifies 39 lenses that support high speed shooting, while older lenses in the catalog cannot.

If Canon was truly trying to force people to buy new lenses, then what would be the point of allowing the lenses to work at high speeds during electronic shutter? Why have a distinction at all if the point is to cripple the lens?

I think there is no real evidence of a conspiracy on Canon's part to force people to buy new glass. I mean that's a theory, but you would be believing it on faith.

Sep 03, 2022 at 02:28 PM

Milan Hutera
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

garyvot wrote:
I think a more likely explanation (rather than Canon intentionally crippling the performance of its camera bodies with certain EF lenses) is that there is something different in the way the lens aperture is actuated when in electronic shutter mode vs. mechanical shutter mode that accounts for these differences.

For example, if historically EF lenses were designed stop down fully to the shooting aperture when the shutter fires and then open up to full aperture immediately after to facilitate brightness in the optical viewfinder, this would mean that the lens is continuously working the aperture mechanism during high speed shooting. Older...Show more →

I don't use ES much, but I shoot my 300 f2.8 L IS at f3.5 and if I remember correctly, it stops down and opens up after each shot even in ES. I'll be shooting some soccer tomorrow, so I'll switch for a while to "hear" what actually happens.

Again, these lenses do work without issues at 12 or 14 fps on 1DXII or III. So there's very little reason NOT to be able to get 10fps from them on R5/6. I would be very happy with this kind of speed, since that's what I had for years when I shot 1DIV.

Sep 03, 2022 at 02:50 PM

garyvot
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

Milan Hutera wrote:
Again, these lenses do work without issues at 12 or 14 fps on 1DXII or III. So there's very little reason NOT to be able to get 10fps from them on R5/6.

Haha, you just blew a nice hole in my logic.

I am not sure how I overlooked this, since I own a number of these lenses and have been shooting 1DX Mark IIs until recently.

I still find it hard to view things so cynically, but I'll concede your point.

Sep 04, 2022 at 12:04 AM

Jesse Evans
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

garyvot wrote:
Haha, you just blew a nice hole in my logic.

I am not sure how I overlooked this, since I own a number of these lenses and have been shooting 1DX Mark IIs until recently.

I still find it hard to view things so cynically, but I'll concede your point.

His point is wrong. There is almost certainly a lack of power budget that is the problem when considering the R5/6 at higher speed with these lenses.

Sep 04, 2022 at 12:19 AM

garyvot
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

Jesse Evans wrote:
His point is wrong. There is almost certainly a lack of power budget that is the problem when considering the R5/6 at higher speed with these lenses.

Yes perhaps. It could be that the older lens aperture mechanisms needed more power to drive high speed actuation than the newer lens aperture mechanisms. That seems logical and would fit the facts.

Sep 04, 2022 at 12:37 AM

Milan Hutera
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

Jesse Evans wrote:
His point is wrong. There is almost certainly a lack of power budget that is the problem when considering the R5/6 at higher speed with these lenses.

Again, Mk. II supertelephotos work at 12 fps on R5/6 with no issues. You are once again deliberately chosing to ignore this point just to say "He's wrong". Do as you wish.

Edit: Last point to make. 7DII uses the same or even older battery as R5/6, yet is able to shoot ~10 fps with Mk 1 Supertelephotos.

Sep 04, 2022 at 03:40 AM

Jesse Evans
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

Milan Hutera wrote:
Again, Mk. II supertelephotos work at 12 fps on R5/6 with no issues. You are once again deliberately chosing to ignore this point just to say "He's wrong". Do as you wish.

Edit: Last point to make. 7DII uses the same or even older battery as R5/6, yet is able to shoot ~10 fps with Mk 1 Supertelephotos.

I’m not deliberately ignoring anything. They are different lenses with older more power hungry tech.

The 7D Mk II doesn’t have an EVF to drive, IBIS, a 45mp high speed sensor to read out, etc.

Sep 04, 2022 at 01:58 PM

justashooter
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

When it is all said and done, it would nice if Canon would just state WHY!

Sep 05, 2022 at 08:35 PM

drimer
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings

Having explored this more over the past year, I have noticed some strange discrepancies in support. The 70-200 2.8 is supported, the 70-200mm 2.8 IS is not. Older tech (the 2.8 non-IS) was sold more recently, so it was supported for full autofocus and framerate. There’s probably some level of time and effort required for each fully supported lens, and older lenses would make less business sense to do that for (due to fewer users and reduced sales opportunities—see Sony’s variable FPS caps).

Something else to consider is focusing. These older lenses weren’t designed for 60 or 120 autofocus adjustments per second. I doubt the motors/electronics are designed for that fast of input. That would explain the faster one-shot/manual focus speeds, although I would need to test with different apertures to see how that plays into things.

If the only issue were aperture, it would be very simple to fix all issues: just take bursts at the shooting aperture. That would be easy to implement.

I think any lens that can handle 20 FPS mechanical shutter on the 1Dx3 should be able to handle 20 FPS on the R3 electronic shutter and 12 FPS on the R mechanical shutters, as far as the lens is concerned. Increased power for the aperture is an interesting theory, but again, if the lens is wide open, the aperture power should be irrelevant. Canon could just publish a brief statement on why the older lenses are not fully supported, rather than confusing and frustrating so many of its users.

Sep 06, 2022 at 09:51 AM

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