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Archive 2021 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings
  
 
drimer
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


Greetings FM!

I recently received an R3 and just had the chance to test it with a few lenses... part of why I upgraded was because I suspected the performance boosts would allow me to keep using my older 200mm f/1.8 and 400mm f/2.8 IS I lenses for sports without distortion (and without spending $5k+ on V2 glass improvements I do not need for my shooting).

FIRST: The R3 may (or may not) pass through the additional voltage to the EF mount adapter as if it were a 1D body. Testing with 400mm IS I, I was able to move focus from infinity to a wall ~20 ft away somewhere about 30-40% faster (quick manual count of video frames of focus scale was 17 for R5 vs 12 for R3) with the R3 than the R5 with the same lens, same adapter, and same single focus point mode... The difference in torque and focus acquisition was like R5 versus my 1Dx original... in favor of the 1Dx and the R3.

I cannot stress how much more confident the R3 felt to acquire focus indoors (medium-low light) with the same lens compared to the R5... the difference between a stroll and a sprint. This is a point sample, but I think this may be worth investigating. Someone with other older lenses and more electronics knowledge might be able to test the electronics... Thought I would chime in with this post because I haven't seen it mentioned.

Secondly, frame rates (observed by taking photos of a phone timer... in cRaw). Per my indoor non-scientific high-ISO (8,000-25,600 dependent depending on aperture) 1/1000s top-speed R3 bursts, the 200L and 400L appear to sustain at least ~16 FPS with AF servo... and with One Shot AF the 200L matched the indoor speed of 25 FPS I observed with my full-speed supported RF 28-70 and 200-400mm. This is far better than the R5's mechanical modes... and it appears that these "unsupported" older lenses can drive closer to 10 FPS on the R3 mechanical shutter. I am pleased with the performance so far. R5 seems to drive at 20FPS regardless... but I suspect these may all speed up outdoors on the R3. Will test eventually.

One more aside. ECAF works incredibly well for me... I keep calibrating every time it seems to struggle a little in a new environment and already at this point, it is exceptional. I can look at a series of snack boxes on a shelf and pick which to focus on. It can move back and forth between multiple people... or between foreground and background... It is more often than not dead on and much faster than even using the AF-ON touch-sensitive pad (that I know I could probably make more sensitive if needed, but still). Looking forward to trying it for sports soon.

Hope this is helpful to somebody! Cheers!


Edited on Dec 03, 2021 at 06:07 PM · View previous versions
Dec 03, 2021 at 04:07 PM
EdwardDye
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


Great test! Quick question do you feel the R3 drive RF lenses 40% faster than R5 too or just the old EF lenses? Thanks

drimer wrote:
Greetings FM!

I recently received an R3 and just had the chance to test it with a few lenses... part of why I upgraded was because I suspected the performance boosts would allow me to keep using my older 200mm f/1.8 and 400mm f/2.8 IS I lenses for sports without distortion (and without spending $5k+ on V2 glass improvements I do not need for my shooting).

FIRST: The R3 may (or may not) pass through the additional voltage to the EF mount adapter as if it were a 1D body. Testing with 400mm IS I, I was able to move focus from...Show more →
Dec 03, 2021 at 05:48 PM
sbc86
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


drimer wrote:
Greetings FM!

I recently received an R3 and just had the chance to test it with a few lenses... part of why I upgraded was because I suspected the performance boosts would allow me to keep using my older 200mm f/1.8 and 400mm f/2.8 IS I lenses for sports without distortion (and without spending $5k+ on V2 glass improvements I do not need for my shooting)…


Thanks drimer! This is very helpful.



Dec 03, 2021 at 06:10 PM
artsupreme
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


Am I reading this correctly that the R3 in AI servo @ 30fps gets 16fps actual and the R5 in AI servo @ 20fps gets 20fps actual with the same lenses??
Dec 03, 2021 at 06:36 PM
Mike Jacks0n
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


The AF speed claim makes sense, Canon advertises the R5 at .05 seconds (fastest at that time) and the R3 at .03 seconds. I don't know how Canon makes that happen (voltage, AF algos, or additional hardware, etc.), but that claim is supported by Canon's sales material.


Dec 03, 2021 at 06:57 PM
drimer
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings




artsupreme wrote:
Am I reading this correctly that the R3 in AI servo @ 30fps gets 16fps actual and the R5 in AI servo @ 20fps gets 20fps actual with the same lenses??

Yes. I need to repeat this with both cameras’ batteries fully charged, but yes. One Shot was above 20FPS with the same lens on the R3, however, so a different shooting environment (less processor spent on high ISO and low light focusing, more on image capture) may give a different outcome.

I should have added that caveat to begin with—the R3 was several thousand frames into its battery at that point.

Also of note—the frames were not entirely homogenous. In some of the testing I observed ~4-5 ms gaps (per the phone screen) between a series of frames punctuated by ~9-10 ms gaps between others. R5 20 FPS was equal ~5 ms as expected. This leads me to think either focusing or power with the discharged battery not fully keeping up and occasionally dropping frames rather than an “imposed” homogenous “cripple” cap on frame rate. Again, indoors with terribly high ISO values and a half-charged battery is not entirely fair to the R3. R5 IIRC drops frame rate when battery lowers.

When I have a chance I’ll look into this more!
Dec 03, 2021 at 08:23 PM
artsupreme
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


drimer wrote:
Yes. I need to repeat this with both cameras’ batteries fully charged, but yes. One Shot was above 20FPS with the same lens on the R3, however, so a different shooting environment (less processor spent on high ISO and low light focusing, more on image capture) may give a different outcome.

I should have added that caveat to begin with—the R3 was several thousand frames into its battery at that point.

Also of note—the frames were not entirely homogenous. In some of the testing I observed ~4-5 ms gaps (per the phone screen) between a series of frames punctuated by ~9-10 ms...Show more →

I'm thinking at any battery level the R3 should be closer to 30fps in AI servo, especially if the R5 is doing 20fps with the same lens. So I would lean more toward an intentional Canon cripple to sell more RF big whites. Something seems off but yes let us know when you have more time to test.
Dec 03, 2021 at 08:28 PM
stanj
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


Your test got me thinking, so I took out my only old "big white" if you can call it, the 200/2, and lo and behold, the frame rate that I measured was in the 17fps range. It's been a while since I used it for sports (or anything actually), so it doesn't bother me so much, but it is surprising a bit. My R3 battery was showing full bars.
Dec 03, 2021 at 09:15 PM
jedibrain
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


Neither of those lenses are on the 30fps list. Of course the lists sometimes vary (as we saw with the R5/6)

https://hk.canon/en/consumer/web/ef-lenses-compatible-to-eos-r3-max-continuous-shooting-speed

The manual also states that AF can cause the frame rate to vary. Maybe those older lenses AF motors just can't quite get there?
Dec 03, 2021 at 10:33 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


Does the R3 have a focus or release priority option in servo mode? The R5 does not have such an option in servo mode. If the R3 had one that could explain the difference.


Dec 04, 2021 at 01:36 AM
JohnSil
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


Drimer, I very recently bought the R5. I didn't think I needed it but in some portrait situations I was not getting focus on the eye, so I thought the R5 would help.
BUT another reason to get the R5 was to be able to use my 200 1.8(sports) and my 85 1.2(portraits) lenses wide open more often. With both the 5Ds wide open, which i don't shoot often, even with the single focus point right on the eye it could be as much as 1" off, either front or back. I get the same results with the 200 1.8 shooting sports. I haven't tried it yet but my hope is that the focus on the eyes/sunglasses will be more accurate in both portraits and in sports, mostly bicycle racing with the lenses wide open. I shoot wide open or f2.5 just to help the focus when it's in dark, rainy conditions.
The 1Dxl and ll tends to grab the high contrast jerseys rather than the eyes in fast moving action even though my focus point is right on the eye or face using the 200 1.8(or 70-200). I'm really hoping the R5 will improve on that hit ratio over both the 1Dxll and 5Ds. Also it will eliminate the variance that the Micro Adjust could be off or has changed.
Is your 200 1.8 performance much improved over the mirrored bodies? I usually don't shoot in burst faster than 7fps unless it's a finish line then use the full 12fps. Even with the R5 not being a dedicated sports camera, I'm hoping from what everybody says that i'll see an improvement in focus over both my current dslr bodies. Thanks
John


Dec 04, 2021 at 12:03 PM
drimer
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings




JohnSil wrote:
Drimer, I very recently bought the R5. I didn't think I needed it but in some portrait situations I was not getting focus on the eye, so I thought the R5 would help.
BUT another reason to get the R5 was to be able to use my 200 1.8(sports) and my 85 1.2(portraits) lenses wide open more often. With both the 5Ds wide open, which i don't shoot often, even with the single focus point right on the eye it could be as much as 1" off, either front or back. I get the same results with the 200 1.8 shooting...Show more →
R5 is light years beyond the 1Dx with the 200L. Only gotcha is that is really needs to be shot in electronic shutter—the viewfinder gets too jittery in the mechanical modes. Eye tracking for sports works just about perfectly. You’ll love it!
Dec 04, 2021 at 12:26 PM
drimer
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings




Jesse Evans wrote:
Does the R3 have a focus or release priority option in servo mode? The R5 does not have such an option in servo mode. If the R3 had one that could explain the difference.
If it does, I cannot find it. I’m not sure why that option is removed.
Dec 04, 2021 at 12:47 PM
drimer
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings




jedibrain wrote:
Neither of those lenses are on the 30fps list. Of course the lists sometimes vary (as we saw with the R5/6)

https://hk.canon/en/consumer/web/ef-lenses-compatible-to-eos-r3-max-continuous-shooting-speed

The manual also states that AF can cause the frame rate to vary. Maybe those older lenses AF motors just can't quite get there?

Certainly possible. I would hope for a reason to explain why One Shot burst speed is capped and manual focus speed isn’t…


Dec 04, 2021 at 12:49 PM
dolina
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


There are some theories that the limitation of older lenses to below 30fps has more to do with physical limitation of the lens' aperture motor/mechanism. It could not move the aperture open & close quickly enough.

In my mind it may be offset if the lens was shot wide open. But again that's just a theory.
Aug 31, 2022 at 08:07 PM
drimer
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings




dolina wrote:
There are some theories that the limitation of older lenses to below 30fps has more to do with physical limitation of the lens' aperture motor/mechanism. It could not move the aperture open & close quickly enough.

In my mind it may be offset if the lens was shot wide open. But again that's just a theory.

I’ve talked to CPS in the time since. It seems to be about aperture primarily. What’s interesting is that lenses can be made to focus at the shooting aperture, as long as video AF is an option. The R5 seems to do something like a video readout for its 20 FPS, so it will just take 20 frames at whatever aperture the lens happens to be at. There’s no reason the R3 shouldn’t be able to do this at 30 FPS as far as I am concerned.

They told me that the lens has to stop down between shots. That’s not true at the high speeds, shooting wide open. And it’s not true if focusing was performed at the shooting aperture.

The pattern I observed tended to be clustered shots. The R3 can take two shots at a 30 FPS 0.03s interval, but then the next shot is 0.06-0.09 seconds later. And then repeat to get to a staggered 17ish frames per second. Still faster than anything else on Canon without eshutter distortion, but it is worth noting.


Aug 31, 2022 at 08:55 PM
dolina
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


drimer wrote:
I’ve talked to CPS in the time since. It seems to be about aperture primarily. What’s interesting is that lenses can be made to focus at the shooting aperture, as long as video AF is an option. The R5 seems to do something like a video readout for its 20 FPS, so it will just take 20 frames at whatever aperture the lens happens to be at. There’s no reason the R3 shouldn’t be able to do this at 30 FPS as far as I am concerned.

They told me that the lens has to stop down between shots. That’s not...Show more →

Good to know.

I have mixed feelings with this. One one end I am happy that Canon put the limitation to prevent prematurely wearing out the lens components as a result of operating beyond its design parameters.
Sep 01, 2022 at 12:16 AM
Milan Hutera
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


Good to read the R3 delivers in mechanical mode on 1st gen IS supertelephotos. Yet another proof 7fps limit Canon put on R5/6 is just a BS to dump the perfectly working and capable pieces of glass and buy new ones.


Sep 02, 2022 at 06:20 AM
Jesse Evans
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


Milan Hutera wrote:
Good to read the R3 delivers in mechanical mode on 1st gen IS supertelephotos. Yet another proof 7fps limit Canon put on R5/6 is just a BS to dump the perfectly working and capable pieces of glass and buy new ones.

Or that the R5 powering an old EF lens doesn't have the power available to drive the mechanical shutter at a higher rate.
Sep 02, 2022 at 01:09 PM
Milan Hutera
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · R3 With Older Lenses Brief Findings


Jesse Evans wrote:
Or that the R5 powering an old EF lens doesn't have the power available to drive the mechanical shutter at a higher rate.

These are lenses that work just fine at 14 fps on 1DXII and they are no different than 70-200 which work just fine at 12fps on R5/6. It's just Canon's usuall cripple game BS.


Sep 02, 2022 at 01:38 PM
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