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New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

Douglas L
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

Alan Parker wrote:
Since the 70-200GMII with 2x TC is sharper than the 100-400GM I'd say that the TCs are not the limiting factor here and don't need to be redesigned

I sold my 2X TC because I only used it for some moon shots. I tested the 2X on my 70-200 II against my 100-400 GM, at f8 and their widest aperture. Before I did the test, I packed up the 100-400 to sell it after reading the reviews of the 70-200 II with the 1.4X and 2X. In my own test, the 70-200 is sharper than the 100-400 in the 100-200 range, but the 100-400 GM is sharper than the the 70-200 II with either the 1.4X or the 2X at 280mm and 400mm, at pixel peeping level, of course. In general viewing on a 32" 4K monitor, it's hard to tell the difference though. After I did my own test, I unpacked the 100-400 and kept it

.

I use the 1.4X on my 600 GM a lot, very happy with the result, the only issue I have is finding the target at 840mm, it has cost me some shots simply because it took me too long to find the targets, but that's the operator's fault.

Back to the OP's question, I highly doubt we will see new version of the TC in the next few years.

Apr 07, 2022 at 05:00 AM

nikon_matt
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

Yeah I’ll believe that when pigs fly 😂😂😂😂

Alan Parker wrote:
Since the 70-200GMII with 2x TC is sharper than the 100-400GM I'd say that the TCs are not the limiting factor here and don't need to be redesigned

Apr 07, 2022 at 06:25 AM

nikon_matt
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

Anyone who thinks that the ii with a 2x is sharper than a naked 100-400 is dreaming. There is literally zero comparison. The 70-200 ii looks like junk.

nikon_matt wrote:
Yeah I’ll believe that when pigs fly 😂😂😂😂

Apr 07, 2022 at 06:36 AM

arbitrage
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

nikon_matt wrote:
Have you tried the 2x on the 600 gm? I have not been happy with the 2x on the 600 gm. I didn’t get to try the 2x on the 400 gm during my short ownership of it (those two together are just too much $). Any images of the 2x with the 400 gm?

I'm not very happy with the 2x on the 600GM either. I've stopped using it entirely with the A1. With the lower res A9/A9II it did okay but it just has too many compromises on the higher MP sensors.

I have a 400GM on order and I'm interested to see if I get on with it on that lens. Somehow I don't think I will but I'd be happy to be surprised as it may allow me to just sell my 600 and run only the 400 if I'm happy with the 800mm performance.

Apr 07, 2022 at 07:08 AM

jhapeman
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

arbitrage wrote:
I'm not very happy with the 2x on the 600GM either. I've stopped using it entirely with the A1. With the lower res A9/A9II it did okay but it just has too many compromises on the higher MP sensors.

I have a 400GM on order and I'm interested to see if I get on with it on that lens. Somehow I don't think I will but I'd be happy to be surprised as it may allow me to just sell my 600 and run only the 400 if I'm happy with the 800mm performance.

I wonder how much of this is individual copy variation? I definitely get a very slight softness wide open with my 600GM and the 2x, but it cleans up perfectly with a little sharpening, and it's vastly sharper than what I used to get with my Canon 600 + 2x TC, so I'm happy with it. If I stop down one stop, even that slight softness goes away. It's only visible at 100% magnification anyway.

BTW, at least with my combo, the 2x + 400GM is amazing. When I feel like lugging a ton of weight, I'll sometimes have the 600 on the gimbal and the 400 over my shoulder on a BlackRapid strap. Perfect when going from a bird feeding in a tree or on the water/ground to in flight.

Apr 07, 2022 at 07:22 AM

buffalowolff
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

I've had interesting experiences with the teleconverters. I hated all of them on the 200-600. On the 600GM I had good results with the 2x (on a tripod for still subjects) and very bad results with the 1.4x. I struggled with the 1.4 for a few years. About a month ago, I set up a test in my house, and compared results between the 600GM naked, 1.4x, and 2x, at various apertures...etc. What I found was my 1.4x was noticeably less sharp than my 2x. I managed to find one at bestbuy (maybe the last one on the planet in recent times) and compared that and poof, its great. This whole time my 1.4x was defective. Not sure what to do with the bad one now, maybe investigate sending it to sony for repair then selling it, but with how simple it is it almost has to be a defect in the glass or coating, who knows.

Apr 07, 2022 at 07:24 AM

nikon_matt
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

Under maybe very specific circumstances, it could work. With canon 600 is iii it much easier to make work but still extremely finicky.

One think to check is to make sure the stabilization is set to “3 unless you are handholding. In a blind, if you use “1”, your photos will be soft. I made this mistake a few times over the years. With Nikon, the stabilization is smart enough to know when you’re on a tripod or stationary etc. Sony and especially canon stabilization systems are not that smart. Canon is ii and is i you are better off just turning the stabilization off unless handholding.

The higher the mp obviously will cause more issues with a 2x. But I have not been happy with a 2x on a 600 gm with the a9, a9 ii, a7riv, or the a1. I have owned multiple 600 gm copies as well and others have tested theirs with me so I know copy variation isn’t an issue. Copy variation was a massive issue with the canon is iii variants.

People who are okay with the 2x are typically printing or sending to the web. They aren't pixel peeping (which who cares anyway tbh). Those who care deeply about the quality won't be okay with the 2x except in rare occasions. But, those people, like myself, are typically serious hobbyists and not pros. Pros are happy with the 2x because their images will never get that high resolution in the end.

arbitrage wrote:
I'm not very happy with the 2x on the 600GM either. I've stopped using it entirely with the A1. With the lower res A9/A9II it did okay but it just has too many compromises on the higher MP sensors.

I have a 400GM on order and I'm interested to see if I get on with it on that lens. Somehow I don't think I will but I'd be happy to be surprised as it may allow me to just sell my 600 and run only the 400 if I'm happy with the 800mm performance.

Apr 07, 2022 at 07:38 AM

arbitrage
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

jhapeman wrote:
I wonder how much of this is individual copy variation? I definitely get a very slight softness wide open with my 600GM and the 2x, but it cleans up perfectly with a little sharpening, and it's vastly sharper than what I used to get with my Canon 600 + 2x TC, so I'm happy with it. If I stop down one stop, even that slight softness goes away. It's only visible at 100% magnification anyway.

BTW, at least with my combo, the 2x + 400GM is amazing. When I feel like lugging a ton of weight, I'll sometimes have the...Show more →

Some (a lot?) of my issue with the 600/2x combo is AF inconsistency handholding. The actual IQ of the combo (setup on a controlled tripod) is pretty good. But realizing those results for the way I like to shoot is difficult. Those with better technique may fare better. I also agree with what someone mentioned earlier...the combo works if you have perfect light coming from behind you and aren't trying to reach out over too long of a distance.

For me it all comes down to getting home on the computer, downloading an hour worth of shots with the 2x and being disappointed in the result compared to the previous hour's worth of shots from the 1.4TC or even the bare lens.

Canon 600/2x once on a MILC body performs pretty much identical. Certainly my Canon 600II/2xIII was more difficult to get results on the DSLRs but that was a DSLR issue...not an optics issue. Since getting into MILCs I've been able to use EF 600II/2xTCIII, EF600III/2xTCIII and RF600/RF2xTC and the actual optics are every bit as good as Sony 600GM/2xTC. It seems to be a camera issue at the heart of differing performance.

Anyways...sometimes the combination sings....
Sony A1, 600GM, 2xTC:

May 28, 2021-3.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

March 12, 2021.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

April 16, 2021.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

Apr 07, 2022 at 08:09 AM

149113
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

I broke out the 2x for this only because I already a lot of decent shots at 840mm. Figured I had some time to experiment at 1200mm and no downside. Full disclosure: a lot of the shots were blurry but that was largely due to SS being low to keep ISO low. Strangely given that it was raining and then snowing there was no heat distortion to deal with and thus fairly clear air (aside from the precipitation) to the subject. The only real use case for me to break this out now might be some really rare bird that is way off in the distance and I just need an ID. Otherwise I am at 840mm hand held 80% of the time

Apr 07, 2022 at 09:42 AM

jhapeman
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

arbitrage wrote:
Some (a lot?) of my issue with the 600/2x combo is AF inconsistency handholding. The actual IQ of the combo (setup on a controlled tripod) is pretty good. But realizing those results for the way I like to shoot is difficult. Those with better technique may fare better. I also agree with what someone mentioned earlier...the combo works if you have perfect light coming from behind you and aren't trying to reach out over too long of a distance.

For me it all comes down to getting home on the computer, downloading an hour worth of shots with the 2x and...Show more →

Ahh yes, that I would agree with. Definitely a lower "keeper" rate, even on a tripod. I love to shoot small birds, so for me the reach with the 2x is key to getting a lot of pixels on the subject. BTW, in reference to your earlier comments regarding the 400, one advantage I've found with the 400+2x vs. 600+1.4x is the closer MFD of the 400. If the birds are letting me get close, then that is a great advantage, and the focus is quite snappy at f/5.6.

Apr 07, 2022 at 09:48 AM

speedmaster20d
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

149113 wrote:

I broke out the 2x for this only because I already a lot of decent shots at 840mm. Figured I had some time to experiment at 1200mm and no downside. Full disclosure: a lot of the shots were blurry but that was largely due to SS being low to keep ISO low. Strangely given that it was raining and then snowing there was no heat distortion to deal with and thus fairly clear air (aside from the precipitation) to the subject. The only real use case for me to break this out now might be some really rare bird that...Show more →

Atmospheric refraction happens in snow and cold weather more than hot weather. Alaska is notorious for this at times . The air pockets that are colder or warmer cause this effect.

Edited on Apr 07, 2022 at 10:13 AM · View previous versions

Apr 07, 2022 at 10:03 AM

speedmaster20d
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

arbitrage wrote:
Some (a lot?) of my issue with the 600/2x combo is AF inconsistency handholding. The actual IQ of the combo (setup on a controlled tripod) is pretty good. But realizing those results for the way I like to shoot is difficult. Those with better technique may fare better. I also agree with what someone mentioned earlier...the combo works if you have perfect light coming from behind you and aren't trying to reach out over too long of a distance.

For me it all comes down to getting home on the computer, downloading an hour worth of shots with the 2x and...Show more →

Nice frames

I don’t have any AF consistency issues. The hit rate for me is the same as the bare lens unless the light is very low. I never user a tripod and rarely shoot a static subject. I think you might want to send it to Sony for evaluation or maybe get a 2nd TC to see if it makes a difference. When I switched to Sony I did not like the 2x but upon swapping it a world of difference. I suspect the first ones was damaged in shipping.

I literally have several thousand files like these at 1200mm. could never even dream of stuff like this with canon 2x and have none to show despite owning that combo for decade

all of these were 1200mm handheld

Best

Edited on Apr 07, 2022 at 10:33 AM · View previous versions

Apr 07, 2022 at 10:08 AM

149113
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

speedmaster20d wrote:
Atmospheric refraction happens in snow and cold weather more than hot weather. Alaska is notorious for this at times . The air pockets that are colder or warmer cause this effect.

I would say it happens in cold temps when the sun is out warming the air that is mixing with cold ground air and evaporation is potentially happening at the same time. But that is driven by a heat source like the sun. The scenario in the above pics there is no sun - this was socked in low low level clouds and the air was uniform though raining and eventually snowing. In that scenario there will be very little, if any, mixing of cold and warm air

Apr 07, 2022 at 10:21 AM

speedmaster20d
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

149113 wrote:
I would say it happens in cold temps when the sun is out warming the air that is mixing with cold ground air and evaporation is potentially happening at the same time. But that is driven by a heat source like the sun. The scenario in the above pics there is no sun - this was socked in low low level clouds and the air was uniform though raining and eventually snowing. In that scenario there will be very little, if any, mixing of cold and warm air

It happens in cloudy days too, I have many examples. the test is to point your lens at something very close, and suddenly things become sharp.

Apr 07, 2022 at 10:26 AM

arbitrage
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

jhapeman wrote:
Ahh yes, that I would agree with. Definitely a lower "keeper" rate, even on a tripod. I love to shoot small birds, so for me the reach with the 2x is key to getting a lot of pixels on the subject. BTW, in reference to your earlier comments regarding the 400, one advantage I've found with the 400+2x vs. 600+1.4x is the closer MFD of the 400. If the birds are letting me get close, then that is a great advantage, and the focus is quite snappy at f/5.6.

MFD is one of the biggest factors that went into my decision to buy the 400GM.

Apr 07, 2022 at 01:24 PM

arbitrage
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

speedmaster20d wrote:
Nice frames

I don’t have any AF consistency issues. The hit rate for me is the same as the bare lens unless the light is very low. I never user a tripod and rarely shoot a static subject. I think you might want to send it to Sony for evaluation or maybe get a 2nd TC to see if it makes a difference. When I switched to Sony I did not like the 2x but upon swapping it a world of difference. I suspect the first ones was damaged in shipping.

I literally have several thousand files like these at...Show more →

Those types of shooting conditions are similar to the days where I've actually been happy with the 600/2x results. They look great.

I've tried 2 other copies of the 2xTC but only very briefly (borrowed for 30mins or so from friends) and didn't find much difference. But I'm still considering ordering another copy. I bought mine used on FM back in 2018.

Apr 07, 2022 at 01:27 PM

randomguy
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

arbitrage wrote:
I'm not very happy with the 2x on the 600GM either. I've stopped using it entirely with the A1. With the lower res A9/A9II it did okay but it just has too many compromises on the higher MP sensors.

I have a 400GM on order and I'm interested to see if I get on with it on that lens. Somehow I don't think I will but I'd be happy to be surprised as it may allow me to just sell my 600 and run only the 400 if I'm happy with the 800mm performance.

Doubt you will be happy with 400 + 2x. The 600 with 2x is actually sharper. But as you know when you are out shooting it is often not the optical performance that is the limiting factor but rather camera shake, heat shimmer, AF and motion blur. If those aren´t perfect the optical qualtiy might not even matter. Putting on a 2x makes all those things twice as bad and at the same time you get a quarter of the light. Which will be noticed as a pretty steep cost even before you start considering the optical quality. For that reason I think people blame the converter more than it deserves.

I got both lenses but never really tried them side by side to compare. But if I shoot in a middle of a sunny summer day I am sometimes hardly able to get a sharp shoot even with the naked 600mm.

Apr 07, 2022 at 03:16 PM

Maxxus46
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

nikon_matt wrote:
Anyone who thinks that the ii with a 2x is sharper than a naked 100-400 is dreaming. There is literally zero comparison. The 70-200 ii looks like junk.

Except that the 70-200mkii GM bare and even with 1.4tc is a sharper lens than the 100-400 regardless of focal length. Aren't you comparing two different lenses ?? I mean if 400mm end is what you need then get the 100400. That said , if you compare optical quality independent of focal length the new 70-200GM Mkii wins by a large margin. It's much better optically... And I do believe it to be as sharp with the 2.0tc attached at 400mm... Difference is negligible (mine certainly is and sold my 100-400). Not sure where you found that chart ..to me that chart is misleading .

Apr 07, 2022 at 07:22 PM

adamgray1
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

Thinking about selling my 100-400 for the 70-200ii and a 2x (already have 1.4) - how did you find the af and sharpness in real
World tests ?
Maxxus46 wrote:
Except that the 70-200mkii GM bare and even with 1.4tc is a sharper lens than the 100-400 regardless of focal length. Aren't you comparing two different lenses ?? I mean if 400mm end is what you need then get the 100400. That said , if you compare optical quality independent of focal length the new 70-200GM Mkii wins by a large margin. It's much better optically... And I do believe it to be as sharp with the 2.0tc attached at 400mm... Difference is negligible (mine certainly is and sold my 100-400). Not sure where you found that chart ..to me...Show more →

Apr 07, 2022 at 07:56 PM

speedmaster20d
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · New Version 2 Sony Teleconverters?

here is an example of the same combo impacted by shimmer, it was a clear windy morning (around 36F) so impossible to predict there would be so much shimmer, the image is just junk. Of course nothing to do with the gear but just poor conditions. Now this is an extreme case, in practice there are many shades of grey, the slightest shimmer can result in apparent sharpness drop that is often blamed on the TC or the AF....

ILCE-1 1200mm f/8.0 1/4000s 1600 ISO 0.0 EV

Apr 07, 2022 at 09:41 PM

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