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Archive 2021 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)

  
 
padrepaul
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


Hi,

Would appreciate any advice on the D6.

I own the D850 and D500. Moved from Canon a year and a half ago. Very happy with the bodies. Got a refurbished 800 5.6mm lens that is my go-to birds. When on a trip, I'll have that on the D500 and more wide angle lenses on the D850. If going after birds only it's the other way around as I prefer the D850 (with grip) for it's big files and it's a great camera.

That said I have thought of a D6 and trading in the D500 and FX lenses with it, so I have less lenses to carry around. My question is would this be pointless? I shot with a 7DII for years and Canon's 800 and it was fine. It's certainly not a "need" and I know the Z9II is coming so with adaptors I'm sure it'll work great. However I really do not at all care about video. Topaz DeNoise does a nice job reducing noise on low light shots. And the AF seems just fine on the D850. Though would a D6 be slightly better for focusing on birds in flight and locking on more quick, such as when a great gray owl leaves it's perch? My primary love is birds and birds in flight.

So maybe this wouldn't be worth it, but just curious as I'm heading to a national park in a month and hope to get out to do owls this winter. Consider the D6 or just wait for a Z9II next spring or so and trade in the D500 then?

Thanks for any insight,
Paul



Aug 12, 2021 at 02:39 PM
aut0maticdan
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


Z9II! Already!

I wouldn't do it right now unless you are allergic to mirrorless. See what shakes out of the Z9 and R3 (and R1?). Many things can happen:

- You'll want one of those new mirrorless bodies. Imagine a camera sportier than the D6 with the output of the D850

- Many people will want those new mirrorless bodies causing many pro Nikon and Canon bodies to end up on buy/sell, some with surprisingly great prices attached to them

- More time with your D850/500 will make you realize they are your true love

I'm not speaking from experience (except that I had a D850). I'm sure the D6 body is amazing. I wouldn't buy one right now, certainly not new.



Aug 12, 2021 at 07:50 PM
padrepaul
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


Thanks, good advice - I really do enjoy the bodies I have, no complaints really. I'm not a full time photographer, but I do contests, write articles for "Nature Photographer Magazine" and things like that so take it seriously. I've loved NIkon over Canon's AF. Just comes down to AF and frame rate; the D6 would surely be better in lower light, and not sure the AF is that much "better" as you of course lose resolution too. Tough decision, but knowing me I'd probably end up selling the D6 then for the Z9 next year. Will be curious if it has a bird eye detection or just animal or if it'll be the same. Time will tell.


Aug 12, 2021 at 09:44 PM
AcuteShadows
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


The Z9 will be great and might well be superior to the D6 in all aspects, including BIF. But it also maybe quite expensive, closer to USD 8,000 than to USD 6,000. It might need a Z telephoto lens to reach its full potential. You might well look at USD 20,000 for a camera/lens combination. Thus, if you intend to stick with the F mount telephoto prime, I think a used D5 might actually be the best choice. Keep the D850 as a backup.

Reconsider if it turns out the Z9 has eagle eye detection.

EDIT:

1. The D500 is probably a good body if you were using a 400mm f/2.8. At f/5.6, you will often be at higher ISO, so the low light capability of the D5 or D6 will be important. You will often not be able to make use of the pixel density of the D500 due to ISO noise. Also, it's not certain that the Z9 will have the low light capabilities of the D5 or D6.

2. Some issues with the 800mm on Z mount bodies have been reported here on this forum. I may be the case that the 800mm will have these issues with the Z9 as well.

Edited on Aug 13, 2021 at 07:02 AM · View previous versions



Aug 13, 2021 at 12:02 AM
4mpx
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


When I had my D850 for service at Nikon Australia, they lent me (as a NPS member) a D6 and the new AF-S 120-300mm f/2.8E FL for 3 weeks.
I mainly shoot bids with my D850 (and other Nikon bodies). After having shot about 20,000 photos with the D6, I still prefer my D850 for its IQ and file size for cropping. At 12/14 fps, the D6 gives you more keepers compared to the 9 fps of the D850...unless the initial acquisition of the AF is perfect. Your shooting techniques are much more important that the camera.



Aug 13, 2021 at 12:31 AM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


Your D500 is already one of the best cameras for BIF. You don’t need any bird or eye detection.

I would use a 500PF before an 800mm simply because it is easier to maneuver.



Aug 13, 2021 at 12:41 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


In my opinion the D6 comes to its own in sports photography and it wouldn't necessarily be my first choice for birds. I think you have already what you need for that. If you shoot in low light and need to use high ISO often then the D6 would give an advantage there (lower noise, better AF) but I'd recommend renting the D6 and seeing what you think after testing rather than buying it straight away.

Your 800 mm is not such a common lens, maybe you could ask what other users of the 800 think about the choice of camera body. You could send Moose Peterson an e-mail as he has used the 800 mm for some time. I think it is relevant to the choice of camera body as it puts you more often in a position where you can fill the frame with the subject (so cropping is not needed quite as much) and on the other hand, since it's f/5.6 you'd need high ISO more often than someone using an f/4 or f/2.8 lens. These factors are in favor of using the D6. However, you might still want those pixels.

What ISO do you typically shoot with the 800 mm lens?



Aug 13, 2021 at 02:58 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


I'd wait for Z9 at this point.


Aug 13, 2021 at 04:18 AM
suteetat
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


D6 is quite a bit better than D500 and D850 in term of AF.
But I agree with everyone else, at this point, I would wait a few more months and see how Z9
turns out. Z9 supposed to be D6 and D850 combined but with even better AF than D6 which if
Nikon delivers, it would be incredible.

I use D6 with 600/4 and while I have no complain about AF ability, I wish I have more flexibillity with cropping.
I assume that Z9 will not be as good as D6 for high iso but no idea how much of advantage
but I assume it will be better than d500/D850 but it will be closer to D500/D850 than D6.

If you need more improvement in term of high iso, this is the only area that D6 may have an advantage over Z9
but we really need to wait for confirmation since it is all speculation at this point.



Aug 13, 2021 at 05:42 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


Reasons I'd pick up a Z9 over a D6 even if the D6 has better AF and AF customization (like its Group options that may never show on the Z9):
1) ~100% sensor AF coverage
2) No MFA
3) Tilt/Flip screen
4) AI AF algorithms (hopefully Bird Eye AF but that remains to be seen and not in current rumor)
5) No mirror blackout
6) WYSIWYG EVF

Reason to consider a D6:
1) High ISO noise
2) Maybe still better button customization and AF options (Group)?



Aug 13, 2021 at 06:38 AM
OwlsEyes
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


Hello Paul,
With the Z9 being introduced this autumn, it might be wise to wait it out just a bit. While I don't shoot as long of glass as you, I do use my Z6II and D500 bodies on the my FLE telephoto lenses.
I have found that the newer FLE telephoto lenses with electronic (E) aperture adapt really well with the Nikon FTZ adapter. These lenses seem to be more responsive with the FTZ and Z6ii, while having quieter VR when on the Z-bodies.

In addition, if you decide that the Z9 is not for you, I would not be surprised if there will be a few bargain priced D6 bodies that show up on the used market.

cheers,
bruce



Aug 13, 2021 at 07:00 AM
Spectro
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


Reading your original post it seems to me that you need to scratch an itch and most people that hang out in this forum have likely experienced that, me included.
If that is the case, I second the recommendation of a used D5 for now. I have the D5/D850 combination and used to own a D500. The D5 is 90% of the D6 based on my discussions/comparisons with press photographers at sporting events that have used both extensively. If money is no object, I’d wait for the Z9 assuming it will live up to the hype.



Aug 13, 2021 at 07:03 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


I can't really agree with those sports photographers' assessment. The D6 can make a big difference in sports photography when properly configured as it's much easier to handle situations where the subject is almost filling the frame and is moving rapidly (to me the most impactful shots are often ones where the subject is very close to the camera). The key feature is that you can specify which area of the frame (width, height, and position) the camera searches for faces and then focuses on the closest face within that area. This means shots like these

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ilkka_nissila/50615337547/in/dateposted/

where the skater turns from one side to the other can be done without moving the focus point around (I typically use 3 rows of 7 points in this case, or a bit wider 3 rows of 11 points in horizontal compositions). The custom group-area can be configured to cover the most probable area for the face to be in the composition and with face-priority it ignores the arms which would ordinarily cause a closest-subject focusing system to focus on. This works brilliantly well in the D6 and is not available in other cameras as far I know. Using single point, dynamic area and older group area and I've many times ended up with limbs falling out of the frame in skating photos because I've not been able to move the focus point quickly enough off-center from one side to the other and ended up with this

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ilkka_nissila/8071720235/in/album-72157714884705663/

The D6 makes juggling the focus point around in such situations unnecessary and helps the photographer out a lot. Now, another solution is to use a zoom like the 70-200/2.8 instead of 200/2 or 300/2.8 and then you can of course liberate the frame with more room around the subject but then you don't get as nice background blur as you would with a larger apeture and tight framing. I like to go for the best subject isolation and shoot the subject as close to the camera as possible as I find the results more clear and dynamic that way.

However, since the D6 recognizes human faces but not animal faces, these features don't offer as much assistance to a bird-in-flight photographer. In non-face-priority modes the custom group area just focuses on the closest subject within the specified subsection of the focus point array. This in itself can be useful but it's not quite as magical as when photographing sports with face priority.

Now what "90% of the D6" means is of course subjective as such things cannot be quantified, but for my type of sports photography it makes a significant difference in that I'm able to produce frame-filling or nearly frame-filling images without the risk of truncation of the subject in fast-changing action situations. I simply ensure that the subject's face is always within the selected part of the focus point array. This also works for pairs and dancers although as the pairs spin around, sometimes the camera doesn't have enough time to switch focus from one skater to the other (based on the face becoming visible and the other face turning away); in this case it just focuses on the closest subject. But in practice it never on the background as dynamic area is notorious for. It does focus correctly on the face in a lot of situations with high rate of success. Another solution of course is stopping down to reduce the impact of slightly inaccurate focus (e.g. using auto area AF at f/4 or f/5.6 instead of f/2) but I think that makes the results slightly dull as the critical focus is missing and as the ISO goes up the pictures lose their crisp brilliance.

For other subjects and sports it may be different. And bird in flight of course it is very different from sports. I think the D6 is much better than its online reputation (which is mostly based on people's perception of the specs and dismay that it's not mirrorless). People appear to dismiss significant improvements that Nikon have made as "putting out the fire using the wrong method." Those who learn how to make the most of this camera will have a lot of fun with it without a doubt. And if it's just a 10% improvement to some users, I have no quarrel with that; it has been a bit more than that in my experience.

However, this is a bit off topic as the OP is photographing birds, not sports. For birds I tend to think high resolution cameras are preferable.



Aug 13, 2021 at 08:10 AM
AcuteShadows
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


ilkka_nissila wrote:
I can't really agree with those sports photographers' assessment. The D6 can make a big difference in sports photography when properly configured as it's much easier to handle situations where the subject is almost filling the frame and is moving rapidly (to me the most impactful shots are often ones where the subject is very close to the camera). The key feature is that you can specify which area of the frame (width, height, and position) the camera searches for faces and then focuses on the closest face within that area. This means shots like these

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ilkka_nissila/50615337547/in/dateposted/

where the skater turns
...Show more

Quite to the point! The D780, which I own, also has face recognition and is a lot better than the D750 (in many respects), despite being very close in the spec data. How much better the D6 is relative to the D5 for BIF is a different matter, of course. I would always advise people to test a camera in a store, rather than to rely on spec sheets, before making a decision.



Aug 13, 2021 at 10:13 AM
padrepaul
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


Much appreciate the responses. I've been quite happy with my Nikon bodies and they both work fine with my lenses. My thought process was if the D6 is a very noticable jump up in AF I'd consider it, though the D850 with grip works fine and I also have a grip on the D500. Both have been microadjusted at a local camera shop too with the target set up to fine tune each lens.

As any fan of bird photography knows, the in flight shots aren't easy; birds are erratic, and you're standing there watching on a cold winter day just waiting for the great gray owl to take off and when he does you're trying to follow him as closely as possible and firing off shot after shot. If a D6 could lock on even better it'd be worth it to me, though as I said the D850 and 500 do this but technology can only do so much; you're tracking an object through an 800mm lens and trying to keep up and get shots off all the while hoping the bird may have it's face to you. A D6 does have more FPS which is nice.

But all things considered I think I'll probably keep my D500 for now as the second body. If the D6 were better noticably at tracking birds in flight I'd pick it up, but sounds like its not a giant leap forward over what I have now. I'm also not worried about noise; I do shoot in low light sometimes but even at ISO 5000 if the bird is sharp with the large file and good noise reduction software now I'm very happy with the image. That said I'll jump on the Z9 probably if it is as good as rumored, and if I find out more info on the D6 being some amazing birding system that is what would make me go for it, but not hearing that in the replies.

With everything nearly paid off finally and not made of money I don't need to look for reasons to spend more, I just dont mind spending on something that gives me enjoyment and getting a sharp, focused, in flight bird with good eye detail is what really gives me enjoyment.

Thanks again. Here's an example of a processed image; I screwed it up in camera actually as I was on single point not group and he suddely took off and I was shooting trying frantically to follow. Anything to help in following incoming owls and eagles which is what I do all winter long whenever I have spare time I'd happily buy.





https://fatherpaul.smugmug.com/Animals/Owls/i-cgxDFxQ/A



Aug 13, 2021 at 10:54 AM
bs kite
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


The link is not live. Would like to see it

I copied/pasted. Not sure it your site though Do you have an image of a mother Black Bear looking down at her cub as the cub is looking up into her face?

I like that and the Cranes (?) against a moon.



Aug 13, 2021 at 11:05 AM
pancrasemma
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


Always amazed what people will pay for a picture of a bird.


Aug 13, 2021 at 12:36 PM
Kasper6188
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


AcuteShadows wrote:
The Z9 will be great and might well be superior to the D6 in all aspects, including BIF. But it also maybe quite expensive, closer to USD 8,000 than to USD 6,000. It might need a Z telephoto lens to reach its full potential. You might well look at USD 20,000 for a camera/lens combination. Thus, if you intend to stick with the F mount telephoto prime, I think a used D5 might actually be the best choice. Keep the D850 as a backup.

Reconsider if it turns out the Z9 has eagle eye detection.

EDIT:

1. The D500 is probably
...Show more

I'm curious what issues have been brought up. I did a brief search and couldn't find anything. I shoot with a Z and an 800 5.6e. I haven't come across anything except occasional missed focus. I'm not questioning your statement (if that's what it sounds like lol), I'm genuinely curious so I can look out for it.



Aug 13, 2021 at 12:40 PM
padrepaul
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)



2. Some issues with the 800mm on Z mount bodies have been reported here on this forum. I may be the case that the 800mm will have these issues with the Z9 as well.


Thanks; well that would be a concern too. Meaning if the adaptor had an issue using a lens for a DSLR I'd certainly gravitate to the D6 instead; the 800 would really need to flawlessly work of course. Hopefully no issues.


Aug 13, 2021 at 01:51 PM
padrepaul
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · D6 Advice: worth it for BIF (own D850, D500)


bs kite wrote:
The link is not live. Would like to see it

I copied/pasted. Not sure it your site though Do you have an image of a mother Black Bear looking down at her cub as the cub is looking up into her face?

I like that and the Cranes (?) against a moon.


Hmm here it is again: https://fatherpaul.smugmug.com/Animals/Owls/i-cgxDFxQ/A

The black bear is my photo with the cub, that was Sequoia National Park, Canon 7DII with the 800.



Aug 13, 2021 at 01:56 PM
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