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Archive 2021 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

sjms
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

it is a shutter dust cover not for finger felching . i don't "mess" with mine. there are people that are fully capable of doing a whole lot of stupid and if not told not to.

Edited on Mar 19, 2023 at 03:58 PM · View previous versions

Mar 19, 2023 at 11:07 AM

1bwana1
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

sjms wrote:
ref from my statement about the Z9 shutter/dust shield:

for historic info only:
granted the Z9 has no mechanical shutter assy but using the wayback machine back in 1988 and 1996 the Nikon F4 and F5 shutter assy used CF blades in their shutter assy's

ref: https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/rhnc11shut2-e/index.htm#:~:text=Nikon%20worked%20to%20improve%20the%20stability%20and%20reliability,blades%20and%20vibration%20due%20to%20shutter%20curtain%20travel.

Absolutely, it is a benefit to protect your sensor from dust. But, that is true to the same level in cameras that are mechanical shutterless optional. This has been available for who knows how many years. My nearly 8 year old leica has this dust sheild feature. It is neither new nor innovative, and it surely doesn't prove that Nikon designs their own sensors, which was the genisis of this discussion. By the way, I do beleive that Nikon designs theur own sensors in some cases. The Z9 being one. I just don't think the dust shutter proves that.

I also know that there are certain cases where having the option mechanical shutter solves probles that currently cannot be solved without that feature. Yes, they are rare, and many (even most?) may not encounter them. But they exists.

To this point no one hascome up with a single benefit that deleting the mechanical shutter entirely offers that the mechanical shutter optional model doesn't also have.

Edited on Mar 19, 2023 at 11:25 AM · View previous versions

Mar 19, 2023 at 11:14 AM

1bwana1
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

sjms wrote:
it is a dust cover shutter not a finger felching shutter. i don't "mess" with mine. there are people that are fully capable of doing a whole lot of stupid and if not told not to.

Agreed. But you are an Engineer with some common sense.

I was just responding to a claim to the contrary posted in this thread. We wouldn't want people to thibk they could poke the dust shutter now would we.

Mar 19, 2023 at 11:16 AM

sjms
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

well, like i said lots of stupid has been well demonstrated all around including here. i think this is a much ado about nothing issue

nobody's perfect all of the time

Mar 19, 2023 at 11:26 AM

ACEG
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

No mecanical shutter;

Several parts that, sooner or later, will wear out.

Makes the camera more expensive (a part that today is not necessary - for many of us)

Makes the camera heavier.

1bwana1 wrote:
Absolutely, it is a benefit to protect your sensor from dust. But, that is true to the same level in cameras that are mechanical shutterless optional. This has been available for who knows how many years. My nearly 8 year old leica has this dust sheild feature. It is neither new nor innovative, and it surely doesn't prove that Nikon designs their own sensors, which was the genisis of this discussion. By the way, I do beleive that Nikon designs theur own sensors in some cases. The Z9 being one. I just don't think the dust shutter proves that.

I also...Show more →

Mar 19, 2023 at 03:01 PM

RoamingScott
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

I’ve said the same about the A1 shutter since its introduction. The idea of using the actual shutter curtains as a dust guard seems asinine to me and I wouldn’t be caught dead using it in that way. Accidents happen in the blink of an eye.

Tony Ross wrote:
I think the argument about durability is a misunderstanding.

I do not use the A1 shutter as a dust shield because it is a high speed carbon fibre device optimised for rapid and repeatable movement, as a shutter - modern shutters have to be light and fast. As a dust shield it is fragile, and could be damaged if touched when there is no lens on the camera. I'm sure it is durable as a shutter (rated at 500k actuations as a shutter), but not as a dust shield.

I do not own a Z9, but I suspect the dust shield...Show more →

Mar 19, 2023 at 03:22 PM

1bwana1
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

ACEG wrote:
No mecanical shutter;

Several parts that, sooner or later, will wear out.

All parts wear out. There is no evidence that the optional mechanical shutters that are used only as dust protection wear out any sooner. They will have the same usage count as the Z9 shutter.

Speculative advantage, true impact unkonwn.

ACEG wrote:
Makes the camera more expensive (a part that today is not necessary - for many of us)

Probably true. That is an advantage for the manufacturer not the customer however. The cameras are sold to us at a price based more on markets that part cost.

Another speculative advantage without actual data to verify.

ACEG wrote:
Makes the camera heavier.

He says about what is probably the heaviest FF ICL camera on the market today by a good margine.

More speculation. The functional shutters are made as light as posible because they have to operate at very high speeds. This is true for both motors and blades. The Z9 shutter has no such requirement so may be made heavier. Many speculate that the Z9 shutter is more durable just for the reason that it can be made heavier. Which is it?

Again speculative at best.

Mar 19, 2023 at 03:57 PM

1bwana1
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

RoamingScott wrote:
I’ve said the same about the A1 shutter since its introduction. The idea of using the actual shutter curtains as a dust guard seems asinine to me and I wouldn’t be caught dead using it in that way. Accidents happen in the blink of an eye.

The very first ICL mirrorless digital camera on the market was surprisingly a Leica with an actual Kodak sensor. It had a shutter that worked this way as does every digital Leica ever made I think. There are many models of ICL digital cameras that now have this feature. As far as I know almost every ICL film camera ever made had a shutter that was closed when both changing lenses or film. The shutter sits in front of the point of focus whether it is a film or digital camera, so distance and likelyhood of poking it are the same.

So, with decades of use, and huge numbers of cameras being used, we do not hear large numbers of reports of failure because of this feature. The real World has a way of settling such questions. Actual data, and it says it not an issue in this case. people seem able to keep from poking their shutters to death.

Mar 19, 2023 at 04:09 PM

RoamingScott
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

1bwana1 wrote:
The very first ICL mirrorless digital camera on the market was surprisingly a Leica with an actual Kodak sensor. It had a shutter that worked this way as does every digital Leica ever made I think. There are many models of ICL digital cameras that now have this feature. As far as I know almost every ICL film camera ever made had a shutter that was closed when both changing lenses or film. The shutter sits in front of the point of focus whether it is a film or digital camera, so distance and likelyhood of poking it are the...Show more →

And yet, I'd have a 100% chance of never poking my shutter to death by not using it vs a 99.9% chance

I like those odds.

Mar 19, 2023 at 06:00 PM

1bwana1
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

RoamingScott wrote:
And yet, I'd have a 100% chance of never poking my shutter to death by not using it vs a 99.9% chance

I like those odds.

So now the first thing to hit and possibly damage is the sensor itself. I wonder which is more expensive to replace, shutter or sensor?

Mar 19, 2023 at 11:52 PM

sjms
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

how about taking care of ones tools and they will generally take care of you. knowledge makes things so much better.

- the shutters themselves are of CF. it is designed to be very light in weight and for speed. it is not designed to take hits or be tested physically for strength, a non ballistic material. odds are if an object (not dust) reaches and impacts the shutter it's fair to assume it will also possibly contact the sensor too

relevance/reality here is waning rapidly

but then again i and most sane people generally have a lens cap or lens on at all times

Mar 20, 2023 at 07:23 AM

RoamingScott
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

A finger entering the mount with enough force to break a closed shutter would merely leave a fingerprint on the sensor, sensors are not as fragile as people seem to think.

1bwana1 wrote:
So now the first thing to hit and possibly damage is the sensor itself. I wonder which is more expensive to replace, shutter or sensor?

Mar 20, 2023 at 08:36 AM

sjms
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

never mind

Edited on Mar 20, 2023 at 09:15 AM · View previous versions

Mar 20, 2023 at 09:02 AM

sjms
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

let us say each camera is to the individuals taste and supposed use. it the person using it that really makes the difference.

life is like that.

Mar 20, 2023 at 09:13 AM

ACEG
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

1bwana1 wrote:
All parts wear out. There is no evidence that the optional mechanical shutters that are used only as dust protection wear out any sooner. They will have the same usage count as the Z9 shutter.

Speculative advantage, true impact unkonwn.

Indeed. Thankfully, with only ES, I dont need to worry about any shutter. Great.

Probably true. That is an advantage for the manufacturer not the customer however. The cameras are sold to us at a price based more on markets that part cost.

Another speculative advantage without actual data to verify.

Of course it’s an advantage for us customers.

He says about what is probably...Show more →

Mar 20, 2023 at 09:20 AM

sjms
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

let it end

Mar 20, 2023 at 09:27 AM

JadedWriter
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

All the photography tech in the world ain't going to mean much if the person manning the camera is basically a scrub.
sjms wrote:
let us say each camera is to the individuals taste and supposed use. it the person using it that really makes the difference.

life is like that.

Mar 20, 2023 at 11:52 AM

1bwana1
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

JadedWriter wrote:
All the photography tech in the world ain't going to mean much if the person manning the camera is basically a scrub.

Agree. In the end it is the singer, not the song, as it always has beeen.

Mar 20, 2023 at 11:55 AM

ACEG
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

Jepp.

JadedWriter wrote:
All the photography tech in the world ain't going to mean much if the person manning the camera is basically a scrub.

Mar 20, 2023 at 01:48 PM

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