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Archive 2021 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

  
 
sjms
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


its been working for me


Mar 16, 2023 at 08:11 AM
1bwana1
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


NikonClio64 wrote:
Obviously the fully electronic shutter is a key feature of Nikon's design.



More correctly said that it is a key implementation of a Sony innovation, and capability of the Sony designed and built photoelectric analog sensor layer Nikon choose to use in its Z9.

I am not a fan of Nikon's implementation. It has too many limitations in certain lighting conditions. I much prefer the mechanical shutter optional architecture.

It makes for good marketing material however, and packaging text however.



Mar 16, 2023 at 08:57 AM
sjms
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


I am not a fan of Nikon's implementation. It has too many limitations in certain lighting conditions.

and what might those "certain" lighting conditions be that you are working in?



Mar 16, 2023 at 09:04 AM
bs kite
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


On March 15, 2023 I posted my spontaneous reaction () to Imagemaster's post back on June 7, 2021:

"Who the hell cares? Just use the best camera suited to your needs.

Competition between the major players results in better cameras for everyone.

Multi-quote · Unlike · You and 4 members like this post."

But I did not laugh on June 7, 2021, when he posted that comment. It was not until March 15, 2023 that I clicked the "Like" button in response to his comment "Who the hell cares?"

Attitudes change. And we are quick to argue aren't we? We're an argumentative species. Look at the war... and for what?



Mar 16, 2023 at 09:49 AM
sjms
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


in reality, nothing


Mar 16, 2023 at 09:52 AM
1bwana1
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


sjms wrote:
and what might those "certain" lighting conditions be that you are working in?


Mixed LED lighting situations where the lights or signs with different frequencies appear in a single image causing artifacts with the Electronic shutter. The tunning of the shutter to the multiple frequencies cannot be done. Mechanical shutter can be used to solve for tghese situations. But oif course that was deleted on the Z9.

Compatability with certain strobes is not complete with the Z9 electronic shutter in some use modes. See plenty of reports on line, and even page 818 in the Z9 user manual. The option to use mechanical shutter would eliminate these issues.

I do shoot a good bit with Godox strobes which have these issues, and I do shoot in mixed LED light enviornments. But I don't have these issues with my current two camera brands. The both have electronis, and mechnaical shutter options.




Mar 16, 2023 at 12:43 PM
JadedWriter
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


Me getting a Z9 and some of the strobe issues that came with Godox, not to mention compatibility on top of my issues with Godox in general was the main reason why I moved into the Profoto system.


Mar 16, 2023 at 01:38 PM
sjms
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


1bwana1 wrote:
Mixed LED lighting situations where the lights or signs with different frequencies appear in a single image causing artifacts with the Electronic shutter. The tunning of the shutter to the multiple frequencies cannot be done. Mechanical shutter can be used to solve for tghese situations. But oif course that was deleted on the Z9.

Compatability with certain strobes is not complete with the Z9 electronic shutter in some use modes. See plenty of reports on line, and even page 818 in the Z9 user manual. The option to use mechanical shutter would eliminate these issues.

I do shoot a good bit with
...Show more

then your choice is the right camera for you. me, i have had no issues. i shoot in a lot of different lighting and have had no real issues. i rarely shoot images of ads on signs at games. but i do shoot in club environments that use lots of LED lighting. buildings that are pretty much all LED lit inside and out where i spend some time. and its business as usual. so we agree to disagree. i have not been sorry at any point in time working with this camera. things are going to move forward.



Mar 16, 2023 at 02:38 PM
1bwana1
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


sjms wrote:
then your choice is the right camera for you. me, i have had no issues. i shoot in a lot of different lighting and have had no real issues. i rarely shoot images of ads on signs at games. but i do shoot in club environments that use lots of LED lighting. buildings that are pretty much all LED lit inside and out where i spend some time. and its business as usual. so we agree to disagree. i have not been sorry at any point in time working with this camera. things are going to move forward.


I don't expect you to be sorry. The Z9 is a wonderful camera. Super capable at pretty much everything. We agree on that.

I do have a question however. What benefit did you get in capabilitry, and flexability in the Z9 because Nikon deleted the mechanical shutter? Keep in mind that there still is a mechanical shutter assembly in the camera to provide the dust shield feature. It just cannot be used to make images. It is certainly not an improvement in reliability over an optional mechanical shutter as this can just not be used so no wear.

So far no one has been able to explain to me a benefit. Maybe you can?

So far even Dirk Jasper a Nikon Product Specialist could only come up with durability, but as we know that is a false benefit when compared to shutter optional.

https://www.techradar.com/news/nikon-explains-why-the-z9-ditches-the-mechanical-shutter-and-why-its-a-big-deal



Mar 16, 2023 at 04:48 PM
sjms
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


i wouldn't worry about it.
- less moving parts
- it is more durable overall. not a "false benefit". how often do you go shutterless with yours?
- Keep in mind that there still is a mechanical shutter assembly in the camera to provide the dust shield feature. It just cannot be used to make images. It is certainly not an improvement in reliability over an optional mechanical shutter as this can just not be used so no wear.
that is an unrelated and irrelevant statement as it has nothing to do with shooting.
- for me its low light shooting capability is quite good.
- overall, i like its feel when shooting.



Mar 16, 2023 at 05:25 PM
1bwana1
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


sjms wrote:
i wouldn't worry about it.
- less moving parts
- it is more durable overall. not a "false benefit". how often do you go shutterless with yours?
-
that is an unrelated and irrelevant statement as it has nothing to do with shooting.
- for me its low light shooting capability is quite good.
- overall, i like its feel when shooting.


sjms wrote:
- less moving parts
- it is more durable overall. not a "false benefit". how often do you go shutterless with yours?


As I said durability is the benefit that can be claimed. But if you don't use the mechanical shutter the optional camera has that same durability advantage. So, no extra benefit from the deletion as I said.

I have used the mechanical shutter for some strobe work, and some Grandchild events with complicated LED lighting. But as I earlier agreed it is rare. I don't think I could reach the 500K shutter life estimate in two or three lifetimes. No durability differences.

sjms wrote:
that is an unrelated and irrelevant statement as it has nothing to do with shooting.


Of course it is related. It is related to durability not shooting. Durability is the only advantage claim that even Nikon makes. Nikon admits that there are situatios where it is a liabality. Even in the manual.


sjms wrote:
- for me its low light shooting capability is quite good.
- overall, i like its feel when shooting.


Me too. But I get all those same shooting advantages in the mechnaical shutter optional cameras. Plus, their implimentation is better. Nikon keeps trying to fix theirs in firmware updates.



Mar 16, 2023 at 07:52 PM
sjms
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


well, you go your way i'll go mine. i prefer the nikon tools. you can try as hard as you like to make all the claims you want. the camera works for my needs and i have found that there has been no advantage to the mechanical option in any of my shooting.

as to the dust shield (shutter) which is not a component of the shooting system and just a optional use protective component seems to only benefit me. i see no real liability.

complicated LED lighting at a grandchild event? now that's interesting

like i said i haven't found what you have found. i'll be on a little work/pleasure trip next week. i'll see what i can dig up to challenge myself.

in the meantime: LED lighting everywhere all the time. all handheld




  NIKON Z 9    NIKKOR Z 24-120mm f/4 S lens    60mm    f/5.6    1/100s    25600 ISO    0.0 EV  






  NIKON Z 9    NIKKOR Z 24-120mm f/4 S lens    24mm    1/100s    22800 ISO  






  NIKON Z 9    NIKKOR Z 24-120mm f/4 S lens    24mm    1/50s    25600 ISO  






  NIKON Z 9    NIKKOR Z 24-120mm f/4 S lens    62mm    1/125s    5600 ISO  



Edited on Mar 17, 2023 at 06:20 AM · View previous versions



Mar 16, 2023 at 08:26 PM
NikonClio64
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


1bwana1 wrote:
Mixed LED lighting situations where the lights or signs with different frequencies appear in a single image causing artifacts with the Electronic shutter. The tunning of the shutter to the multiple frequencies cannot be done. Mechanical shutter can be used to solve for tghese situations. But oif course that was deleted on the Z9.

Compatability with certain strobes is not complete with the Z9 electronic shutter in some use modes. See plenty of reports on line, and even page 818 in the Z9 user manual. The option to use mechanical shutter would eliminate these issues.

I do shoot a good bit with
...Show more

This is clearer. You do not use NIkon gear. You have no experience of the Nikon Z9, So you have zero images of your own, which demonstrate how the Z9 fails you. Nevertheless. a relatively obscure feature of the electronics brings you into a Nikon forum devoting a string of posts to condemn its capabilities.....

I recall early last year there were particular conditions identified that might cause slight banding in Z9 images. True to type, Sony trolls jumped on the reports to condemn the Z9 and bash Nikon in general. Apart from leaf shutters, Mechanical shutters have always struggled with banding under certain artificial lighting conditions, which is then very challenging to fix - if at all.

Sony trolls and other Nikon bashers are also unlikely to know Nikon updated the firmware to mitigate such issues in the Z9 under artificial lights to tune shutter speed to a particular frequency of the light source. So once again Nikon engineers delivered an innovation exploiting fine tuning in the electronic shutter to solve such studio challenges. Obviously the informed Z9 owners who actually use the camera know the solution for stills and videography under LEDs etc

Reliable reviews and technical manuals explain why the fully electronic Z9 shutter has no problems for Pro photographers relying on the Nikon Z9 for income. Same applies to sports Pro in stadiums at night - such as the rank and file of Agence France-Presse, who collaborated with Nikon engineers to develop and test the Z9 (following up on their previous inputs developing and testing the D6 etc). All features considered, the Nikon Z9 is yet another of Nikon's robust, weatherproofed professional ILC, which has taken digital photography to a new standard.

First and foremost, the fully electronic shutter is proof of concept, launching Nikon's new direction in engineering its cameras. This fact might well threaten camera-brand puritans prone to Nikon induced insecurity.

Significant cost saver in manufacture, and enables the full house of imaging up to 120 fps; with PreCapture etc. As already mentioned Nikon exploited the freed up design space in the 16mm Z mount flange for the mechanical protector - yet another key innovation from Nikon. There's obviously no shutter slap; reliable Silent-Shooting at the fastest shutter speeds 1/32000 etc etc

For Z9 owners relatively new to the camera, who might be mislead by the trolling on image banding etc - here are links to reliable informed advice, and also Thom Hogan's ebook on the Nikon Z9

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-z9/5

https://blog.kasson.com/z9/how-fast-is-the-z9-shutter/

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66343541






Mar 17, 2023 at 02:27 AM
1bwana1
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


NikonClio64 wrote:
This is clearer. You do not use NIkon gear. You have no experience of the Nikon Z9, So you have zero images of your own, which demonstrate how the Z9 fails you. Nevertheless. a relatively obscure feature of the electronics brings you into a Nikon forum devoting a string of posts to condemn its capabilities.....

I recall early last year there were particular conditions identified that might cause slight banding in Z9 images. True to type, Sony trolls jumped on the reports to condemn the Z9 and bash Nikon in general. Apart from leaf shutters, Mechanical shutters have always struggled with
...Show more

Once again you are very mistaken on a number of levels. I am not trolling or bashing. I am only discussing misinformation in a post you made. Overall I am a big fan of both Nikon and the Z9. My posts about the Z9 generally are by far more positive than anything else.

I have been shooting primarily electronic shutter since 2017. Yep almost about years now.

I have spent a good deal of time shooting on the Z9. You may be surprised by how early this started. There are those on this site who know.

By the way features like "imaging up to 120 fps; with PreCapture etc." have nothing to do with deleting the mechanical shutter. They are a function of the speed of a stacked sensor, and the ability to shoot with electronic shutter. All of the mechanical shutter optional cameras have the potential to do this as evidenced by such implimentations in cameras that do offer an optional mechanical shutter. Once again you confuse the ability to shoot with electronic shutter with the inability to shoot with mechanical shutter. They are independant of each other.

I am fully aware of each and every one of the firmware updates that have been released for the Z9. When the Z9 was first released it was lacking some core functionality inportant to shooting without a mechanical shutter. The competition pretty much all offered these features in their stacked sensor cameras prior to the Z9 release. This has been acknowledged by many including Nikon itself. This is the reason for the firmware updates you reference. What you fail to acknowledge is that the functionality released in the firmware doesn't adress all of the defeciencies in shooting ES in some situations. This is true of all implimentations, from all the companies. That is the only reason the other companies retain the option of mechnaical shutters in their cameras. Nikon is the only one who doesn't. It is my opinion that this constitutes a deletion, and offers zero advantage over the cameras that offer mechanical shutter as an option. That is all, no more sinsiter an adgenda than that.

You seem to have lost sight of the reason we are having this discussion at all. You made the claim that this lack of a mechanical shutter in the Z9 somehow proved that Nikon designed their own sensor. It is my position that this is no indication of that.

The ability to shoot without a mechanical shutter without losing too many features, and without producing too many artifacts, is an inherant capability of all stacked sensors. This is because of the fast scan times of stacked sensors. This is not a Nikon innovation. It has been done by many camera companies prior to the Z9, and for many years now. A company can buy off the shelf Sony (and other) stacked sensors with this capability. That is the point of this discussion regarding your false claim on the subject.

By the way, the articles you reference deal only with a single problematic light source in the frame/enviornment. When there are multiple such light surces the availbel timing functions don't fix it. You can only tune to the frequency of a single source. At that point the proper solution is to revert to a mechanical shutter. It also doen't address every situation perfecty, but it reduces the problems in a significant way. That is why I didn't say that Nikon's shutterless imlimentation is inherently bad. I said it wasn't my favorite, and I prefered others. Once again, that is not bashing or trolling. Throwing those term around sloppily weakens their meaning for when it is truely happening.




Mar 17, 2023 at 10:08 AM
NikonClio64
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


The entire stacked design of the Z9 is Nikon's implementation of its own propriety circuitry that is anchored around the high scan rate built into this stacked circuitry.

Prior to the Z9 sensor, in early 2021 Nikon announced its stacked sensor with very high frame rates and Dynamic Range, which is designed for industrial applications - possibly including its robotic innovations. This demonstrates Nikon's Sensor lab has at least 2 stacked sensors released, and we Nikonians can expect more

The Nikon engineer's stated this as cited above https://www.nikon-image.com/sp/z9_specialinterview/01_z9/

What Sony did and when is irrelevant.

The facts of situation is Nikon designs its own stacked sensors, building on a photoelectric layer, which could be Sony's or Tower. And one or more of these companies presumably do all or part of fabrication.

It's obvious from your posting history that in your own world you know it all, and have nothing to learn from others here. You go your way, and me mine.



Mar 18, 2023 at 04:51 AM
ACEG
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


I must say I got a good laugh when I read this thread.

The way some argues makes me wonder if they’re ever used the camera (i.e. Z9), or are photographing at all. Some «nice» rule techniques as well. Thankfully many of us can make our own experiences with the gear.

Best Nikon camera ever, in my point of view. And only ES…..fantastic!

Whose are producing the parts? Couldn’t care less! The final product is a Nikon- camera. And nobody else but Nikon, can put together a Nikon- camera 😉💪.

NikonClio64; just ignore, not worth it 🙂.



Mar 19, 2023 at 03:03 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


1bwana1 wrote:
Once again you are very mistaken on a number of levels. I am not trolling or bashing. I am only discussing misinformation in a post you made. Overall I am a big fan of both Nikon and the Z9. My posts about the Z9 generally are by far more positive than anything else.

I have been shooting primarily electronic shutter since 2017. Yep almost about years now.

I have spent a good deal of time shooting on the Z9. You may be surprised by how early this started. There are those on this site who know.

By the way features like "imaging up
...Show more

Steve,

Although it is true that any camera with both a mechanical and a electronic shutter could set up the electronic shutter in the same way as a camera with just an electronic shutter (if they have similar sensor scan speeds), in practice the capabilities of the electronic shutter are likely to diverge over time. A camera with only an electronic shutter is going to develop firmware to try to address any problems that arise with the electronic shutter. That is the only way they can address the problems. In contrast a camera with both an electronic shutter and a mechanical shutter can just let people switch to the mechanical shutter without ever developing a solution to the problems that emerge with the electronic shutter.
For example, I expect that the Z9 will develop even better abilities through software to deal with the cycle speed of LED lights. I expect the A1 won't bother with such refinements because they rarely occur and people can always solve the problems by switching to the mechanical shutter. For example, I can easily imagine a Z9 software upgrade that lets you test a bunch of different scan speeds and examine the tests for banding. This could really help even with mixed LED lighting as through this process you could find a speed that works with multiple frequencies. This feature would be unlikely to be developed for the A1 as users could just switch to the mechanical shutter. And, importantly, if you needed to shoot in mixed LED light *and* you needed to shoot silently in this rare situation the Z9 would have an advantage.
I think at this point the advantage of the mechanical shutter and the potential of the advantage of the electronic only shutter are only going to come up in quite rare situations. What we are hearing from the Nikon Pros is that the situations where the electronic only shutter of the Z9 is problematic with the current firmware are so rare that it doesn't affect their work.

I have yet to see evidence (i.e., pictures) where an A1 worked (keep in mind that banding can occur sometimes with a mechanical shutter--it is just really rare. I certainly have gotten banding, albeit very rarely, with a mechanical shutter on both MILCs and DSLRs and it typically has been in the mixed light environment you point to above) and a Z9 did not. Without such evidence to me this argument about rare events without actual evidence is just a tempest in a teapot and posturing by people wanting to say their camera is superior. In real life I think that the advantage of having a mechanical shutter in addition to an electronic shutter is likely to only matter in pretty unusual circumstances. For the few people that encounter these unusual circumstance fairly often then by all means get a camera with a mechanical shutter in addition to an electronic shutter. Even working pros like sjms, however, who shoots in a lot of different lighting situations and shoot a lot seem to report zero real world problems. That to me suggests that the numbers of people who truly need a mechanical shutter are few and far between and people who have both shutter are mostly pointing to a hypothetical advantage and not an advantage in actual practice.

Edited on Mar 19, 2023 at 07:06 AM · View previous versions



Mar 19, 2023 at 05:47 AM
Tony Ross
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


I think the argument about durability is a misunderstanding.

I do not use the A1 shutter as a dust shield because it is a high speed carbon fibre device optimised for rapid and repeatable movement, as a shutter - modern shutters have to be light and fast. As a dust shield it is fragile, and could be damaged if touched when there is no lens on the camera. I'm sure it is durable as a shutter (rated at 500k actuations as a shutter), but not as a dust shield.

I do not own a Z9, but I suspect the dust shield is designed to be robust against being touched when there is no lens on the camera - I would expect it to be durable as a dust shield, thicker and tougher than a modern shutter - that is its job. I doubt it can even be used as a shutter. (Unless someone was lazy and used an actual shutter as a dust shield)

So when someone says the Z9 dust shield is durable, I'd expect they mean as a dust shield, doing dust shield things.

And when someone says the A1 shutter is durable, I'm sure they mean as a shutter, during shutter things (I would not know - I have not used the mechanical shutter on my A1 yet - mine could be missing or faulty, and I would not know - no, that doesn't mean it is faulty, just that I've never tested it).



Mar 19, 2023 at 06:25 AM
sjms
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


ref from my statement about the Z9 shutter/dust shield:
as to the dust shield (shutter) which is not a component of the shooting system and just a optional use protective component seems to only benefit me. i see no real liability.

for historic info only:
granted the Z9 has no mechanical shutter assy but using the wayback machine back in 1988 and 1996 the Nikon F4 and F5 shutter assy used CF blades in their shutter assy's

ref: https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/rhnc11shut2-e/index.htm#:~:text=Nikon%20worked%20to%20improve%20the%20stability%20and%20reliability,blades%20and%20vibration%20due%20to%20shutter%20curtain%20travel.

Edited on Mar 19, 2023 at 11:02 AM · View previous versions



Mar 19, 2023 at 10:48 AM
1bwana1
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


Tony Ross wrote:
I think the argument about durability is a misunderstanding.

I do not use the A1 shutter as a dust shield because it is a high speed carbon fibre device optimised for rapid and repeatable movement, as a shutter - modern shutters have to be light and fast. As a dust shield it is fragile, and could be damaged if touched when there is no lens on the camera. I'm sure it is durable as a shutter (rated at 500k actuations as a shutter), but not as a dust shield.

I do not own a Z9, but I suspect the dust shield
...Show more


I beleive you are likely mistaken on this.

I went to a demonstration put on by Nikon Technical employees during the release of the Z9. They had a couple of Z9s to pass around to show the dust shutter. Right before passing them around they made a point of telling everyone to absolutely not touch the shutter. They said that if you touch the shutter you will break it. If you break it by touching, it is not covered by warrantee. He then held up two that he couldn't pass around because people had touched and broken them in previous demonstrations. he said he was getting tired of that. The sales gyy who walked the camera around kept repeating, "look, but don't touch". This had clearly been a problem for them during their demo tour.

I have never tried it myself. Nor do I know anyone who was foolish enough to touch one and broken it. But, I take his word and his demo about whether the dust shutter is robust enough to protect against touching. He was clear. It is not.



Mar 19, 2023 at 11:02 AM
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