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Archive 2021 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

  
 
sjms
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


It wasn’t snarky. You’ll know when it is. If you had more facts rather then second hand info I would buy in a Little more. The reason I used the short answer is that there is as you asserted “sometimes”. And I agree to a point. Without hard paperwork which none of has it falls short to a large extent. Half a fact is just that. You know some guy who knows some guy that’s still not holding the paper with the whole answer.

Edited on Jun 07, 2021 at 04:56 PM · View previous versions



Jun 07, 2021 at 12:14 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


Who the hell cares? Just use the best camera suited to your needs.

Competition between the major players results in better cameras for everyone.



Jun 07, 2021 at 03:35 PM
BlueBomberTurbo
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


Something to note is that Sony is now on their 2nd generation of large size (not smartphone) stacked sensors. The first camera to use one of these sensors is 2019's RX100 VII, which shoots RAW bursts at 90fps. The second is the A1. Readout speed is significantly faster than the 1st gen in the A9 (2017) and A9 II (and RX100 IV [2015] and VI) before it, and there is no loss in IQ vs a non-stacked version of the sensor (ie. A9 vs A7 III).

Whether Nikon has the right to use 1st or 2nd gen stacked sensors is more important than if it gets stacked or not, if the Z9 is meant to compete against the A1. Then again, Nikon could launch a Z1 later on, as Canon isn't releasing its R1 anytime soon, either. Only the R3 is being teased, which seems more like an A9 III competitor than an A1 fighter.



Jun 07, 2021 at 07:38 PM
swifty168
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


It is true it's no trivial matter to scale sensor designs to large sensor sizes such as FF. It only gets exponentially more difficult at a commercially level, the larger the sensor size gets. Sony Semi has been the only manufacturer to demonstrate this at a commercial level so naturally they remain the front runner as the potential manufacturing partner for Nikon's Z9 sensor, although not the only option. If you've only taken a cursory look you'd be forgiven for thinking there's only one supplier capable of stacked sensor and some form of exclusivity exists.
But large stacked sensors remains a small market so it may be of limited commercial appeal to many manufacturers who may be chasing much larger volumes in the smartphone world. We're only just seeing the first stacked sensor larger than 1" (4/3) appear in Sony Semi's catalogue (intended for a broader market). The larger stacked sensors have thus far been bespoke, made exclusively for a particular client's needs.

Stacked sensors is just a broad description of "sandwiching" together (by some sort of bonding method) more than one silicon chip in a 'stack' and isn't proprietary to any manufacturer. But in the ILC world, we've so far only been familiar with iterations in Sony Imaging's products. Much like having two rectangular pixels under the same microlens is not a unique sensor design but we in the ILC world are mostly only familiar with Canon's Dual Pixel designs. The name DPAF (Dual Pixel Autofocus) may even have been trademarked by Canon, I haven't checked.

So all we know is that the Z9 sensor is stacked but we don't know what will go into it. If it is to have a very fast readout, I would imagine memory of some kind will be required downstream somewhere. Will that appear as part of the stack, we don't know. Will it be the same as the A1's DRAM in the middle tri-stack? I'm doubtful of this because it has been rumoured this particular design is a Sony Imaging exclusive and hence will be unavailable to others. It doesn't, however mean that memory can't be incorporated into the stack in another design by Sony Semi or someone else. Samsung's ISOCELL is both a tri-stack with DRAM and a dual pixel design. But being a Korean manufacturer I haven't found any information to support an association with Nikon.

If Sony Semi ends up being the Z9 sensor fab, the implications would be that it will not be a Nikon in-house design (which is absolutely fine btw). Because you don't use Sony Semi just for foundry work, you use them for design and fab. And yes, this means the D850 has underlying Sony Semi EXMOR R pixel designs, designed by Sony Semi. To what extent Nikon 'designed' the D850 sensor is not known but it's not the underlying pixel design. For one thing, Jack Hogan (not Thom Hogan) at DPR has done some great analysis on the unique microlens design on the D850/Z7/II which trades QE for sharpness. The devil is in the detail so don't take what marketing (of any company) say too literally.
The rare exception where Sony Semi does foundry work is when they buy over a fab line as they did with the Toshiba line, thereby inheriting the existing fab contract of the D5/D6 sensor which predates the acquisition.

There are no issues with Sony Semi as the design and fab partners except it does break Nikon's tradition of using their in-house design in their flagship (non-x) model since the D2 series. However mirrorless sensor requirements are different from DSLR so sure, it would be wise to remain cautious until we actually see a Nikon in-house designed large stacked sensor. We've only seen a demonstration one in 1" sized so far but at least it shows an active design team capable of designing and able to source a fab partner to manufacture a stacked sensor design. That's also no trivial feat.

All this is to say, if you find this all quite interesting (which I do) do some research. I find this world fascinating and one particularly good and generous source is Bobn2 on DPR. He's a pretty straight shooter and not aligned with any manufacturers nor does he have any qualms about criticising any manufacturers.
Does this matter much at all to our cameras, not a bit as along as it performs to your expectations. These are just side interest topics, that unfortunately some like to use as ammo for brand wars.



Jun 07, 2021 at 10:54 PM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


Is Sony really going to sell Nikon the A1 sensor, potentially undercutting sales of the A1?

Is Nikon going to get a high tech sensor elsewhere given they've apparently used Sony sensors a lot?

Honestly neither makes a lot of sense, and like a lot of people I'm curious about the Z9 specs and who made the sensor. Skeptical Sony is the only one who can make stacked sensors.



Jun 09, 2021 at 11:55 AM
1bwana1
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


AmbientMike wrote:
Is Sony really going to sell Nikon the A1 sensor, potentially undercutting sales of the A1?


Not likely to happen.

If Sony ends up being the sensor supplier it will be a different one than what is in the a1.

Nikon has said they are designing their own. If history is an indicator it will still be based on Sony core architecture.


AmbientMike wrote:
Is Nikon going to get a high tech sensor elsewhere given they've apparently used Sony sensors a lot?


It is possible and some say likely. No one who is in a position to know is talking. Everyone else is just speculating.

AmbientMike wrote:
Honestly neither makes a lot of sense, and like a lot of people I'm curious about the Z9 specs and who made the sensor. Skeptical Sony is the only one who can make stacked sensors.


We are all interested to see how this plays out. Interesting times in the imaging business for sure.




Jun 09, 2021 at 12:25 PM
mogul
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


1bwana1 wrote:
Not likely to happen.

If Sony ends up being the sensor supplier it will be a different one than what is in the a1.

Nikon has said they are designing their own. If history is an indicator it will still be based on Sony core architecture.


It is possible and some say likely. No one who is in a position to know is talking. Everyone else is just speculating.

We are all interested to see how this plays out. Interesting times in the imaging business for sure.


Remember when Sony allowed Nikon to use the A900 sensor for the D3x...Sony charged $3,000 & Nikon charged $8,000.



Jun 09, 2021 at 01:05 PM
sjms
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


no i don't remember that.


Jun 09, 2021 at 01:08 PM
1bwana1
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?




sjms wrote:
no i don't remember that.


Are you saying that it didn't happen?



Jun 09, 2021 at 02:26 PM
mawz
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


mogul wrote:
Remember when Sony allowed Nikon to use the A900 sensor for the D3x...Sony charged $3,000 & Nikon charged $8,000.


Given how closely those two bodies were released (Sept and Dec 2008) and which was Sony Semiconductor's bigger customer at the time, it's really hard to say that Sony allowed Nikon to use the A900 sensor and more a case that Sony Semiconductor made the sensor available to its most important customers.

Sony Imaging was a different business unit from Sony Semiconductor and at the time tended to lag Nikon in access to sensors from Sony Semiconductor. Remember a couple years later the 36MP sensor was unique to Nikon for ~2 years between the D800 launch and the A7R launch and just the year before the D300 launched a few weeks before the A700 (those two sensors weren't the same, but they were two variants of the same basic design)



Jun 09, 2021 at 04:13 PM
sjms
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


1bwana1 wrote:
Are you saying that it didn't happen?


no, i'm saying i don't remember that.






Jun 10, 2021 at 06:50 AM
sjms
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


Sony Imaging was a different business unit from Sony Semiconductor and at the time

still is a different business unit today







Jun 10, 2021 at 08:14 AM
bs kite
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


Imagemaster wrote:
Who the hell cares? Just use the best camera suited to your needs.

Competition between the major players results in better cameras for everyone.





Mar 15, 2023 at 12:23 AM
NikonClio64
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


What is clear from all the biased debate and bits of opaque information in 3rd hand snippets etc etc is camera companies - Nikon in this case - without an inhouse fab plant (only canon has apparently) order the photo-electric layer from a catalogue. This would explain the Sony part Numbers reported N'th hand by NR. Nikon specifies much of the specific details in the designs of these sensors, optimized in-house by Nikon engineers.

There is a detailed first hand account of how Nikon designs much more of the tech, which is integrated into at least some its sensors at the microscopic scale: electrical interfaces, micro lenses etc, the ADC etc. This article used the D5 sensor as its main example.
https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/07/17/pixels-for-geeks-a-peek-inside-nikons-super-secret-sensor-design-lab

The list published by Nikon Rumors - is on a rumor website known for pushing clickbait. So in the case of any sensor, such as the D5 it is wrong to state the Nikon D5 sensor is a pure Sony sensor. Yes, Sony fabricated it, but Nikon had the primary role in its design building on and modifying the layer of photosensitive pixels, presumably designed as a standard part by Sony. It is not clear if other companies were also engaged in design / making some of the other micro parts.

No one knows any more outside of the employees under NDA's in the Japanese industry. This desert of information is particularly true of the latest stacked sensors. In the case of the Z9, it's hypothesized at least one other company fabs different layer(s) on to the Sony photosensitive layer that captures photons. The stacked circuitry must also include the ADC, which as in the case of the Z9 was likely designed and optimized in Nikon's sensor lab.

Apparently this report apparently has some of the answers
https://www.techinsights.com/products/def-2204-801

However, there's an interesting challenge for the Z9 is only-Sony Camp. Explain why only the Nikon Z9 has a high performing electronic shutter and Nikon parted ways with the tried and trusted mechanical shutter? This question has been answered by the Nikon engineers who developed the Z9. They have stated the sensor was designed by their own dedicated department. Equally they describe how a layered circuit inside the sensor separates output data from each pixel for still image recording and live view, respectively. Nikon also designed this within the sensor, which as these engineers state is then produced according to the specifications set by Nikon.

Along the same lines, Nikon also designed the EXPEED7 ISP in the Z9 using the Cores available from Socionext, who produce this proprietary chip customized for image processing.

https://www.nikon-image.com/sp/z9_specialinterview/01_z9/



Mar 15, 2023 at 05:11 AM
1bwana1
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?



NikonClio64 wrote:
However, there's an interesting challenge for the Z9 is only-Sony Camp. Explain why only the Nikon Z9 has a high performing electronic shutter and Nikon parted ways with the tried and trusted mechanical shutter?


Challenge accepted.

Nikon dropping the mechanical shutter is a cost saving decision not an innovation. Electronic shutter without artifacts has been available in other Sony stacked sensor cameras as an option for many years now. Many A1 and A9 cameras have a near zero mechanical shutter use count after years of service. In fact Nikon's implementation of electronic shutter lagged the others in a number of important performance areas on release. Nikon has address most of these shortcomings in firmware updates after release. But still trails in some strobe ES areas. Think about what is implied by the fact that so much of what happens with ES performance in the Z9 is done with software not hardware. Much is at the processor layer not the hardware layer.

Mechanical shutterless shooting has been a feature of Sony stacked sensors for years. It is not a Nikon innovation. In this regard the Z9 implementation is more about marketing and cost savings than it is about innovation. This issue says nothing about the origins of the Z9 sensor design except that it is consistent with the performance features of other years old Sony sensor capabilities.

Can you show a capability of Nikon's Z9 mechcanical shutterless implementation that other Sony stacked sensors don't have?



Mar 15, 2023 at 06:02 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?



Competition between the major players results in better cameras for everyone.



I agree it benefits photographers to have more competition. However, employees and stockholders of certain companies would like to spin things so that the value of the stock they own (or their salary maybe) increases; rather than being interested in photography they're interested in accumulating wealth.

What photographers are interested in is ... well, photography, and to the extent they're interested in gear, how the gear performs in their applications. The more competition there is the better the gear affordable to them becomes. But of course this could adversely affect the personal wealth of those who favour monopolies.



Mar 15, 2023 at 06:46 AM
NikonClio64
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


I answered the rhetorical question in the same post. Nikon stated they designed the sensor to function without a mechanical shutter. In the interview, Saito replied: "...department that develops the imaging sensor and the department that develops the mechanical shutter discussed and decided on a policy..."

The decision was taken within Nikon to hand over the shutter function completely to software framed in silicon. Irrespective of who else had done similar previously is irrelevant to subject - Nikon Z9's design team stated Nikon designed the stacked computational layers of the Z9 sensor on what is known independently to be a Sony designed and fabricated photoelectric layer

Nikon Z9 users sure do appreciate the sensor protection that has replaced the mechanical shutter in the available space between within the very shallow Z mount. So a major advantage over other Nikon cameras one may own. There is also the option of extremely slow shutter speeds down 900sec but other cameras may do so, but this is irrelevant in a Nikon forum.



Mar 15, 2023 at 07:58 AM
1bwana1
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


NikonClio64 wrote:
I answered the rhetorical question in the same post. Nikon stated they designed the sensor to function without a mechanical shutter. In the interview, Saito replied: "...department that develops the imaging sensor and the department that develops the mechanical shutter discussed and decided on a policy..."

The decision was taken within Nikon to hand over the shutter function completely to software framed in silicon. Irrespective of who else had done similar previously is irrelevant to subject - Nikon Z9's design team stated Nikon designed the stacked computational layers of the Z9 sensor on what is known independently to be a Sony
...Show more

I think your understanding of deciding on "policy" being the same as designing is different than most. I would call that "specifying" based on the capabilities and features of an existing component. In this case the existing component being the Sony designed and manufactured photoelectric layer. It is the scan speed of this layer that enable the Electronic Shutter performance. It is then the analog to digital conversion, memory, and processing layer , which impliments the feature in software. In a stacked sensor these digital layers are attached directly to the analog photoelectric layer to increase performace. I beleive that Nikon has much more to do with these layers. In fact, I think there is a decent chance that Sony's involvment in the Z9 & soon to be released Z8 sensors may end at the photoelectric layer, with the digital layers being manufactured and attached by another vendor such as Tower. In this case the most accurate descriptin of the situation is likely along the lines of saying that the Z9 sensor is a Nikon specified/designed sensor with hybrid manufacturing between multiple suppliers of Nikon's choosing. In it's final form, it is neither a wholy Sony or Nikon designed or manufactured part. It is however unique to Nikon in its finished form.

In any case understanding this and how it relates to the Z9 having only an electronic shutter represents no challenge to those that say the sensor is a Not fully designed by Nikon. In fact, it makes perfect sense in this context.



Mar 15, 2023 at 10:32 AM
NikonClio64
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


1bwana1 wrote:
I think your understanding of deciding on "policy" being the same as designing is different than most. I would call that "specifying" based on the capabilities and features of an existing component. In this case the existing component being the Sony designed and manufactured photoelectric layer. It is the scan speed of this layer that enable the Electronic Shutter performance. It is then the analog to digital conversion, memory, and processing layer , which impliments the feature in software. In a stacked sensor these digital layers are attached directly to the analog photoelectric layer to increase performace. I beleive that
...Show more

As I posted above - "In the case of the Z9, it's hypothesized at least one other company fabs different layer(s) on to the Sony photosensitive layer that captures photons. The stacked circuitry must also include the ADC, which as in the case of the Z9 was likely designed and optimized in Nikon's sensor lab."

Obviously the fully electronic shutter is a key feature of Nikon's design.





Mar 16, 2023 at 04:37 AM
Eric214
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?


Na



Mar 16, 2023 at 06:54 AM
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