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How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

bs kite
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

1. the article:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2299527448/why-the-speed-of-stacked-cmos-is-key-to-nikon-s-pro-mirrorless-camera

Last sentence in 3rd paragraph says........

"The news that Sony's camera division won't be the only one with access to this technology in future is excellent news for competition within the industry."

2. How/why does it happen that the stacked sensor is no longer exclusive to Sony?

Is the following related in any way?

3. https://www.nikon.com/news/2021/0303_cmos_01.htm

Always curious

Robert

Edited on Jun 06, 2021 at 06:47 PM · View previous versions

Jun 06, 2021 at 03:11 PM

sjms
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

The device is a combination of technologies. Exclusivity is illusive when there is constant research and development being done. Forward momentum leads. as long as there enough differences in methodology to get around potential legalities.

Jun 06, 2021 at 03:24 PM

swifty168
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

Sony Semi never lost any exclusivity because there was none to begin with.

Stacked sensor just means a way of bonding a second (or third, fourth etc.) silicon chip directly to the imaging sensor. What manufacturers want to 'stack' depends on what they want to do with the chip.
We've had stacked sensors Sony, Samsung, Omnivision etc. for a very long time.
They all also appear to license the same bonding method from Ziptronix (now part of Xperi). Tower has also announced licensing with Xperi for the same bonding technique btw.

What may be an exclusive to Sony Imaging may be a specific design involving a 3 layer stack with a DRAM stack in the middle layer. Here Sony Imaging may still have an exclusivity, whether perpetual or timed.

Jun 06, 2021 at 08:06 PM

1bwana1
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

Jun 06, 2021 at 09:00 PM

1bwana1
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

sjms wrote:
The device is a combination of technologies. Exclusivity is illusive when there is constant research and development being done. Forward momentum leads. as long as there enough differences in methodology to get around potential legalities.

Sony is an electronics company. They have no problem licensing and selling to their competitors when they calculate that it is profitable to do so. That time has come for its stacked sensor technology. They have had the camera market in this area to themselves long enough at this point.

Jun 06, 2021 at 09:03 PM

bs kite
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

excerpted from your comment 1bwana1:

"They are not worried about losing control of large BSI CMOS Stacked Sensors at this point. They are interested in maximizing their profits from this technology.”

That makes perfect sense.

Thank you to both of you for your comments

Jun 06, 2021 at 09:19 PM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

Jun 06, 2021 at 10:18 PM

osv2
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

AmbientMike wrote:
Canon hasn't used Sony sensors to this point AFAIK and the R3 sensor is reported as stacked

Canon PowerShot G7 X Mark III and G5 X Mark II got sony stacked sensors back in 2019, it's cdaf-only, so it's probably the old Sony RX100 IV sensor from 2015.

if sony is making a1-grade stacked sensors for canikon it'll probably be the first time that they have done that with ff milc.

Jun 06, 2021 at 11:01 PM

bs kite
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

In the article in my top post, I thought I remembered the author saying that this will be the first time for an FF stacked sensor . Could be wrong. Why not read the article and see what you think?

Jun 06, 2021 at 11:20 PM

sjms
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

1bwana1 wrote:
Sony is an electronics company. They have no problem licensing and selling to their competitors when they calculate that it is profitable to do so. That time has come for its stacked sensor technology. They have had the camera market in this area to themselves long enough at this point.

True. But there are other methods too. Work smarter not harder. There is always cross use of of technology then there is taking it to the next level. Forward momentum. sony does not have the exclusive rights to that. Sony is a technology company not the one and only.

Jun 06, 2021 at 11:59 PM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

bs kite wrote:
In the article in my top post, I thought I remembered the author saying that this will be the first time for an FF stacked sensor . Could be wrong. Why not read the article and see what you think?

The Nikon rumors article said 1 inch sensor. Not sure if it's for cameras or not, Canon makes 100+ mp aps-h 1.3 sensors for other stuff.

The dpr article pretty vague, at best, about any intellectual property rights type of discussion. I'm not seeing anything about 1st time for FF sensor but I miss stuff. It says other manufacturers have it now, but I'm not sure if they just developed it or what. Skeptical they bought it from Sony.

Not sure if scraping the substrate off is something that can be patented.

Jun 07, 2021 at 12:01 AM

sjms
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

Jun 07, 2021 at 12:02 AM

mapgraphs
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

It's been many years since I was in the (consumer) tech industry but from my time there, if there isn't a patent associated with a piece of tech then it most likely is tech cobbled together from individual pieces licensed from third party vendors, hence there are no intellectual property rights involved.

Same goes for software. Companies license software libraries in whole or part, especially at the OS level but usually all other parts of the software pipeline. Companies may license the right to tweak hardware or software but they pay for that right. And if the license is exclusive, it's very, very expensive... And all consumer tech companies go as cheap as possible with licenses (from what I've worked with), to the point of quibbling over the cost of chips that are pennies per thousand...

Licensing is the smartest part of tech. It's the reason why Nikon makes litho printers (and is being paid royalties for the tech behind the printers). Better to lease equipment or license the tech behind it than mass produce parts that have to compete with other parts manufacturers, who are licensing the same tech you are but just cobbling it together slightly differently; also why Nikon designs their own silicon... Anyone can fabricate.

Jun 07, 2021 at 06:36 AM

1bwana1
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

mapgraphs wrote:
also why Nikon designs their own silicon... Anyone can fabricate.

The reasoning in this blanket statement is flawed and the statement is absolutely not true.

Nikon buys many "open to buy" sensors for their cameras.

Primarily from Sony.

There are some where Nikon has design input. However, rumors about how much remains unresolved. Some are likely mostly designed by Nikon on top of Sony core architecture. But even in these cases it is highly likely that Nikon pays some licensing fees to Sony and others on top of manufacturing costs.

It is also well known that Sony licenses some technology for use in heir sensors. Those fees are built in when it manufactures sensors for others as well.

Here is a list of Sony sensors in Nikon cameras:

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/these-32-nikon-cameras-are-sonys-in-disguise
(Yes I find the title of the article click bait. I don't think Nikon is trying to disguise anything.)

Nikon Z7: Sony IMX309BQJ
Nikon Z7 II: Sony IMX309BQJ
Nikon D1: 2.7 MP Sony
Nikon D1h: 2.7 MP Sony
Nikon D1x: 5.47 MP Sony
Nikon D2x: 12 MP CMOS Sony (Nikon designed)
Nikon D3x: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5: Sony
Nikon D40: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D40x: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D50: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D60: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D70: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D80: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D90: 12 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D100: 6 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D200: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D300: 12 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D500: Sony IMX321 CMOS
Nikon D600: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D610: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D750: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D800 / D800E: 36 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D810 / D810A: 36 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D850: 45MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D7000: 16 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D3000: 10 MP CCD Sony
Nikon D3300: 24 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5000: 12 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5100: 16 MP CMOS Sony
Nikon D5300: 24 MP CMOS Sony (?)
Nikon D5500: 24 MP CMOS Sony

So, has Nikon ever designed its own image sensors? It sure has; Nikon D3100, Nikon D3200, Nikon D700, Nikon Df, Nikon D2h, Nikon D3 / D3s and Nikon D4 / D4s all have sensors from the Big N – though Nikon Rumors notes that some of the Nikon-designed sensors are actually made by Renesas.

Further, the Nikon D7100, Nikon D7200 and Nikon D5200 all have sensors made by Toshiba, and the sensors in the Nikon 1 cameras were made by Aptina.

Jun 07, 2021 at 08:41 AM

sjms
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

Sony foundry manufactured

Jun 07, 2021 at 08:56 AM

osv2
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

"the cost of building a new fab over one billion U.S. dollars with values as high as $3–4 billion not being uncommon. TSMC invested $9.3 billion in its Fab15 300 mm wafer manufacturing facility in Taiwan. The same company estimations suggest that their future fab might cost $20 billion."

tsmc is spending $12 billion on their arizona fab plant... that's why companies buy chips from sony, they can't do it themselves, it's not something that just anyone can do.

nikon ran its lithography equipment business into the ground, due in part to a lack of r&d spending, so i'm skeptical that they have any significant r&d budget for chip design, they are buying generic cmos designs from sony, or paying sony to do minor tweaks to stock sony designs, just like canon did with those 1" sensors:

November 22, 2020 15:03 JST
"Nikon plans to cut 2,000 jobs, or 10% of its workforce, mainly due to a downturn in its mainstay camera business and structural changes in the global semiconductor industry, highlighted by sluggish performance of top American chipmaker Intel.

The Japanese multinational is now staging a price-cutting offensive in the market for semiconductor manufacturing equipment, according to industry officials.

Once the world's biggest maker of semiconductor manufacturing equipment, Nikon has seen its market share fall to 7%, affected by structural market changes symbolized by U.S. chipmaker Nvidia overtaking Intel in terms of market capitalization.

While Nikon has been supplying 70% to 90% of its chipmaking machines to Intel, it is now seeking out new customers with a price-cutting strategy in order to reduce its excessive reliance on the Santa Clara, California-based company, a securities analyst said."

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Nikon-plans-reform-to-reduce-reliance-on-key-customer-Intel

Jun 07, 2021 at 08:58 AM

mapgraphs
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

sjms wrote:
Sony foundry manufactured

Yet, even in the face of hard fact, internet legend lives on. And on... One can argue facts, one cannot argue belief systems gone amok, cheery-picking misinformation to support confirmation bias... ; - )

Jun 07, 2021 at 10:03 AM

1bwana1
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

sjms wrote:
Sony foundry manufactured

Some yes, some no. Some are off the shelf Sony designed sensors.

Even the oft quoted D850 claimed by many to be entirely designed in house by Nikon is provably not so. It is built on the core Sony architecture. This is borne out by the physical design of the sensor.

Bobn2 over at DPR (often sited by Nikon people as a credible source) made observations on the design of the D850 saying it was a Sony designed architecture when it was still being argued by many that it was a Tower manufactured sensor. He drew his conclusion from its physical design layout, and some exclusive Sony design behaviors. He turned out to be correct when the Sony part number was shown on the sensor.

"This will come as no surprise to anyone who's been curious about the issue: DPReview forum user Bobn2 (a computer science professor whose areas of expertise include imaging) pointed out immediately that all the published images of the chip showed a wiring pattern consistent with previous Sony designs. The sensor's performance then revealed it to have a dual-gain design that's been a feature of recent Sony chips (something we believe was licensed from Aptina, making Sony one of the only companies able to offer it)."

https://www.dpreview.com/news/1234108119/nikon-d850-sensor-confirmed-as-sony-made

These discussions are often centered around a few questions.

Does Sony sell Nikon Sony designed and manufactured sensor for use in Nikon cameras?

Does Nikon design their own sensors from the ground up?

Does Nikon tweak Sony and others sensor designs for use in Nikon cameras?

Does Nikon buy sensors form other vendors?

Does Nikon have sensors manufactured by fabs other than Sony?

Does Sony reserve some advanced technologies for its own imaging division?

The answer to each of these questions is the same. "Yes, sometimes".

Your usual " short and snarky" answer of "Sony foundry manufactured" is so incomplete that it is inaccurate and contributes nothing to the discussion.

Jun 07, 2021 at 10:05 AM

osv2
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

bs kite wrote:
1. the article:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2299527448/why-the-speed-of-stacked-cmos-is-key-to-nikon-s-pro-mirrorless-camera

Last sentence in 3rd paragraph says........

"The news that Sony's camera division won't be the only one with access to this technology in future is excellent news for competition within the industry."

2. How/why does it happen that the stacked sensor is no longer exclusive to Sony?

it's because sony is now apparently willing to sell cutting-edge sensor tech to other milc manufacturers, instead of releasing it first in a sony camera, then not selling it to other companies until after 18 months or whatever... i hate petapixel, but they covered that with a couple of relevant links: petapixelDOTcom/2017/03/22/sony-keeps-best-sensors-cameras/

you'll have to copy/paste/edit in your browser to see it, i'm not going to improve their search engine rankings with an active link.

text from above: "“When we make sensors we put them in several categories,” Ishizuka told DPReview. “[At any given time] one category of sensors is reserved purely for Sony cameras – we don’t sell them to other companies. Like the sensor in the A7S.”
“But once we’ve enjoyed this advantage we might sell them on later, after some time has passed,” he continued. “This is the second category. The third category of sensors is completely generic – the sensors are created for use internally and to sell externally, to anybody. China or Taiwan or wherever.”
Sony does appear to be benefiting from using its best sensor designs for its own cameras."

here the link to the missing imaging-resource sony interview that imaging-resource deleted off of their site: https://web.archive.org/web/20170318105719 /http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/03/17/sony-thailand-factory-tour-qa-mapping-out-the-future-of-the-interchangeable

text from above: "Tanaka briefly spoke about how Sony reserves its best custom sensor designs:
“As you know well, our key driver is the image sensor, and we already invested a lot of money for the image sensor development,” Tanaka tells Imaging Resource. “And the sensor is a custom [design, meaning that] only Sony can use these sensors, and our strength is our in-house technology.”

bs kite wrote:
Is the following related in any way?

3. https://www.nikon.com/news/2021/0303_cmos_01.htm

sony ff milc uses a triple-stacked sensor with ram, while that nikon concept sensor is apparently for a dual-stack sensor that doesn't have any ram... if a dual-stacked sensor was good enough for a1-level performance, you can bet that sony would have used a dual-stacked sensor with the a1.

for example, sony did not use a memory-stacked sensor in their Xperia 1 II, but they did with the Xperia 1 III, so stacked ram is clearly preferable from a performance standpoint, at least with non-global sensors.

back in 2019 sony was embedding some type of memory in the pregius-s global shutter sensors, but it apparently wasn't done to increase the readout speed: https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/News/Press/201903/19-023E/

Jun 07, 2021 at 11:25 AM

osv2
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · How/when did Sony lose exclusivity to stacked sensors?

and for all the people who claim that only canon has dpaf, you are wrong ;-)

"More impressive is the fact that Sony has upgraded all camera module sensors to stacked CMOS (Exmor RS) sensors, with faster sensor readout rates. Like the Xperia Pro, the main 24mm camera module sports sensor readout rates faster than 10ms, while the 16mm and 70/105mm telephoto modules now also have fast readout rates, albeit slightly longer than 10ms. Sony has also now paired the telephoto module with a dual PD (phase-detect) sensor. That means that the entire telephoto image sensor can be used for phase-detect autofocus, as opposed to having AF points sparsely scattered about. This should help significantly in terms of autofocus performance, which tends to be more problematic for telephoto modules, particularly ones with smaller physical apertures that tend to falter in autofocus performance due to the decreased light levels reaching the sensor. In comparison, previously only the wide and main camera modules had dual PD AF, in the Xperia Pro and the Xperia 1 Mark II." https://www.dpreview.com/news/1686332610/sony-s-xperia-1-and-5-mark-iii-introduce-variable-optical-zoom

Jun 07, 2021 at 11:30 AM

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