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Archive 2021 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

shadow9d9
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

Originally I had planned to wait to buy the A1, but with summer right around the corner, I decided to buy one sooner rather than later. It is still being shipped to me. I am coming from the A9.

I am asking these questions in regards to birds specifically.

I tried my best to read all of the threads here by the usual experts, but still had some questions for those with A1 experience.

-Colby Brown says on his site that you have to switch from Focus balanced emphasis to release in order to get the full 30fps from High. Is this correct? I knew it had to be compressed, but did not know that I had to switch this in order to get the 30fps.

-I know that with the A9, most people settled on non tracking zone rather than the tracking variant. With Bird Eye autofocus, do you stick to zone still or is wide a good option? Do you stick again with the non tracking version?

-In one thread here, someone suggested that due to the higher mp compared to the A9, that you should aim for 1.4x the shutter speed in order to get sharp images. Have you found this to be the case?

And is the 1.4tc worth using with the a1 and 200-600?

Thanks!

Apr 08, 2021 at 11:37 PM

arbitrage
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

* Switching to Release is not an official Sony thing to get 30FPS. However, many who have tested including Mark Galer and myself did find that Balanced didn't reach 30FPS. I actually got 30FPS in Release and in Focus priority but that was just shooting my phones stopwatch (in order to get enough precision for the test). Oddly, Balanced shooting that same stopwatch didn't get 30FPS. I would expect Focus priority would not reach 30FPS once in the field under trying conditions. Regardless, I've always shot every camera I've owned in Release priority if they have that option. I don't believe the camera is accurate enough to know if it is really going to be in focus at 30FPS so Balanced and Focus priority are just going to miss you potentially great shots.

*I'm still mostly using Zone and Wide for BIF depending on how small and erratic the bird is. I'm still using the non-tracking version. I use Tracking version of Zone, Expand and Small Flex Spot for non flight depending on the clutter surrounding the bird. The thing is that in a non-tracking version of Flex Spot it will only find and track the eye within the small area of the Flex Spot. If you are in Tracking version then once it finds the eye it will track it across the entire frame. So I often will use the Flex Spots to hone in on the correct place for the camera to look for the eye and then hit my AF-ON button to switch the Flex Spot to Tracking and recompose with eye tracking working. If you just use Wide or even Zone in a cluttered surrounding then the camera won't always "see" the eye when presented with everything else in the frame. This was the same on the R5...you needed to use a small AF point to get the bird in focus and then switch over to full frame Eye-AF once you had sort of told the camera where to look with the small focus point. The Sony system is more flexible in the ways you can use all the AF modes in conjunction with the Eye-AF.

*I don't aim for higher SS compared to lower MP cameras. I never have. I've been shooting this type of resolution since my 7D2 days and have had many similar pixel density cameras (5DSR, D850, D500, A7RIV, R5) ever since and I've never adjusted shutter speeds with those cameras compared to my 20 odd MP FF cameras like 1DX, 1DXII, A9.

*Yes, I believe the 1.4 is still worth using on the A1. But I don't use it as much as with the A9. I do prefer to shoot an A1 with 200-600 over an A9 with 200-600/1.4. Still when I need even more reach I have found the 200-600/1.4 on the A1 to work well.

Apr 09, 2021 at 06:24 AM

Holger
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

arbitrage wrote:
* Switching to Release is not an official Sony thing to get 30FPS. However, many who have tested including Mark Galer and myself did find that Balanced didn't reach 30FPS. I actually got 30FPS in Release and in Focus priority but that was just shooting my phones stopwatch (in order to get enough precision for the test). Oddly, Balanced shooting that same stopwatch didn't get 30FPS. I would expect Focus priority would not reach 30FPS once in the field under trying conditions. Regardless, I've always shot every camera I've owned in Release priority if they have that option. I don't...Show more →

"*I don't aim for higher SS compared to lower MP cameras. I never have. I've been shooting this type of resolution since my 7D2 days and have had many similar pixel density cameras (5DSR, D850, D500, A7RIV, R5) ever since and I've never adjusted shutter speeds with those cameras compared to my 20 odd MP FF cameras like 1DX, 1DXII, A9"
I do, because for me it makes a difference, since pixel density is one thing, but I usually have equal effective AOV and therefore more pixels/arc length with my A1/A7riv vs. A9ii. Esp. when first using the A7riv I recognised the need to use clearly higher shutter speeds, esp. when shooting 85mm at portrait distances.

In your case there probably is a safe SS speed which you probably use anyway, as you expected to crop even your A9 images quite clearly?

Apr 09, 2021 at 06:39 AM

arbitrage
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

Holger wrote:
"*I don't aim for higher SS compared to lower MP cameras. I never have. I've been shooting this type of resolution since my 7D2 days and have had many similar pixel density cameras (5DSR, D850, D500, A7RIV, R5) ever since and I've never adjusted shutter speeds with those cameras compared to my 20 odd MP FF cameras like 1DX, 1DXII, A9"
I do, because for me it makes a difference, since pixel density is one thing, but I usually have equal effective AOV and therefore more pixels/arc length with my A1/A7riv vs. A9ii. Esp. when first using the A7riv I recognised...Show more →

Yes I've likely developed a safe SS that I just use regardless of camera since 2015. Maybe I could lower it more on the A9 and come away with a shot more often then lowering it on the A1. I mean I shoot eagles and owls down to 1/800 and shoot ducks and such at 1/1600. I shoot smaller birds as fast as light allows. And yes I cropped the heck out of A9 images and still crop the heck out of A1 images. I'm often left with 3-6MPs even off of an A1 when shooting smaller, faster BIF.

Apr 09, 2021 at 07:10 AM

kimknapp
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

I also use a higher shutter speed with the A7Riv, but the jury is still out for me with the A1.
I suspect that the slower processor of the Riv benefits from the greater time available between shots afforded by the shorter time needed for each shot. I could be blowing smoke, though.

Apr 09, 2021 at 07:20 AM

Cudacke18
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

I shot this cropped more than 2x with balance, zoom and counted the frames from its timestamp 30fps.

Shot this one also balance, zoom and counted the frames from its timestamp 30fps.

Not sure why those people couldn’t get 30fps to be honest...

Apr 09, 2021 at 08:25 AM

shadow9d9
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

arbitrage wrote:
* Switching to Release is not an official Sony thing to get 30FPS. However, many who have tested including Mark Galer and myself did find that Balanced didn't reach 30FPS. I actually got 30FPS in Release and in Focus priority but that was just shooting my phones stopwatch (in order to get enough precision for the test). Oddly, Balanced shooting that same stopwatch didn't get 30FPS. I would expect Focus priority would not reach 30FPS once in the field under trying conditions. Regardless, I've always shot every camera I've owned in Release priority if they have that option. I don't...Show more →

While looking over posts in the forum before making this post, I caught your comment that said, "The first is that Tracking On won't switch a Recall Reg AF Function Hold non-tracking AF mode into a RTT mode." In trying to understand your post in this thread, am I correct to assume that your AF-On of tracking Flex Spot is simply a custom button rather than recall Ref AF?

Apr 09, 2021 at 11:45 AM

arbitrage
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

shadow9d9 wrote:
While looking over posts in the forum before making this post, I caught your comment that said, "The first is that Tracking On won't switch a Recall Reg AF Function Hold non-tracking AF mode into a RTT mode." In trying to understand your post in this thread, am I correct to assume that your AF-On of tracking Flex Spot is simply a custom button rather than recall Ref AF?

Yes AF-ON is just the custom key function labeled "Tracking On". That works on my regular AF mode. It used to work on a Recall Custom Hold mode but doesn't on the A1. That is why I've switched my entire A1 setup to not use as many Recall Custom Hold functions (I still used one for slow SS, Auto ISO for perched birds but even that mode now has a glitch where EC doesn't work). Sony is aware of all these issues and supposedly will fix them someday.

Apr 09, 2021 at 06:29 PM

arbitrage
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

Cudacke18 wrote:
Not sure why those people couldn’t get 30fps to be honest...

The timestamps may not be accurate. They certainly weren't on the R5 when people thought they weren't getting 20FPS. Although they may be on the Sonys. I shot a simple timer on my iPhone and it wouldn't do 30FPS in Balanced. I should give it a try again and make sure.

Apr 09, 2021 at 06:31 PM

shadow9d9
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

arbitrage wrote:
Yes AF-ON is just the custom key function labeled "Tracking On". That works on my regular AF mode. It used to work on a Recall Custom Hold mode but doesn't on the A1. That is why I've switched my entire A1 setup to not use as many Recall Custom Hold functions (I still used one for slow SS, Auto ISO for perched birds but even that mode now has a glitch where EC doesn't work). Sony is aware of all these issues and supposedly will fix them someday.

I had assumed that you had a custom button that recreated all of the settings but with flex spot tracking rather than just flex spot. After your post I took a look through the manual and indeed there is a way to initiate tracking.

What is the benefit of recall custom hold vs just having a custom button?

Apr 09, 2021 at 10:46 PM

arbitrage
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

shadow9d9 wrote:
I had assumed that you had a custom button that recreated all of the settings but with flex spot tracking rather than just flex spot. After your post I took a look through the manual and indeed there is a way to initiate tracking.

What is the benefit of recall custom hold vs just having a custom button?

Recall custom hold allows you to change specific settings, as many or as few as you like. Tracking On has been on all the previous cameras that have real-time Tracking. Tracking On + AFOn is new to the Sony A7C and now A1. It allows the Tracking On functionality for back button focus shooters. On my previous cameras I had Tracking On set to my lens button. On previous cameras if I set a Recall Registered AF Area button (say AEL) then I could also hold down the Tracking On lens button and it would switch my Registered AF Area into the Tracking version. This functionality broke on the A1 (Sony is aware and may fix). This was one of my motivations to totally switch around my setup. The EC breaking when top dial is in M and Recall Custom Hold is used in M + Auto ISO is also something that is screwing with my setup right now as I want the physical EC dial to affect my M + Auto ISO (SS 1/400) that I have on my AEL button. Currently I'm mostly just hoping that it underexposes instead of overexposes with the EC fixed at zero. Underexposure can be fixed via the power of ISO Invariance...overexposure not so much.

The next change I'm likely going to make to my setup is to switch my four main AF modes from Wide,Zone,SFlex,ExpFlex over to Wide, Zone, S Flex Tracking and Expand Flex Tracking. I'm finding that whenever I use S. Flex or Expand Flex I'm always using my Tracking On button in order to recompose once the eye is found. So I might as well just have those be Tracking all the time. Going to try that out and see if it comes back to bite me ever.

Apr 10, 2021 at 06:13 AM

somersettr
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

arbitrage wrote:
Recall custom hold allows you to change specific settings, as many or as few as you like. Tracking On has been on all the previous cameras that have real-time Tracking. Tracking On + AFOn is new to the Sony A7C and now A1. It allows the Tracking On functionality for back button focus shooters. On my previous cameras I had Tracking On set to my lens button. On previous cameras if I set a Recall Registered AF Area button (say AEL) then I could also hold down the Tracking On lens button and it would switch my Registered AF Area...Show more →

Geoff,

I use a recall custom hold for perched birds in the same way you do. However, I have my ss at 1/1000 because I generally have IS turned off. Does your 1/400 shutter speed imply that you have IS switched on all the time? I assume you're not switching the lens IS on and off because it is a rather slow process. Also, on the 200-600, what IS mode are you using?

Apr 10, 2021 at 06:22 AM

arbitrage
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

somersettr wrote:
Geoff,

I use a recall custom hold for perched birds in the same way you do. However, I have my ss at 1/1000 because I generally have IS turned off. Does your 1/400 shutter speed imply that you have IS switched on all the time? I assume you're not switching the lens IS on and off because it is a rather slow process. Also, on the 200-600, what IS mode are you using?

I have OSS on Mode 1 almost all the time. I did turn OSS Off when shooting swallows yesterday. If I'm shooting very, fast and erratic BIF and know I'm going to be swinging the lens around in all sorts of directions then I just turn off OSS. I don't know if that helps but I just don't want OSS getting in the way when my shutter speeds are high anyways. But for most BIF I just leave it on Mode 1 for both my 200-600 and 600GM.

Apr 10, 2021 at 06:29 AM

shadow9d9
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

arbitrage wrote:
Recall custom hold allows you to change specific settings, as many or as few as you like. Tracking On has been on all the previous cameras that have real-time Tracking. Tracking On + AFOn is new to the Sony A7C and now A1. It allows the Tracking On functionality for back button focus shooters. On my previous cameras I had Tracking On set to my lens button. On previous cameras if I set a Recall Registered AF Area button (say AEL) then I could also hold down the Tracking On lens button and it would switch my Registered AF Area...Show more →

Thanks! Do you feel like there is a big enough difference between small flex and expand flex to use both? Same question with wide vs zone. Under what situation would you use wide over zone? I ask because I always use zone.

And one more question since I have you and you are pretty much the birding expert here. On my A9, I have custom buttons for 1/2000 and 1/3200 depending on the speed of the bird. What shutter speeds do you tend to use?

Thanks again for all your help! My camera arrives monday.

Apr 10, 2021 at 12:10 PM

Cudacke18
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

arbitrage wrote:
The timestamps may not be accurate. They certainly weren't on the R5 when people thought they weren't getting 20FPS. Although they may be on the Sonys. I shot a simple timer on my iPhone and it wouldn't do 30FPS in Balanced. I should give it a try again and make sure.

Why would the timestamp on a camera that is running based off the timer that used for the clock on the camera that never had an issue with for the last 20 years not be able to keep the time correctly, be less accurate or be introducing any more possibilities error than the one that is running on a different system and literally control by a human on start and stop?

Apr 10, 2021 at 12:29 PM

Daran
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

Cudacke18 wrote:
Why would the timestamp on a camera that is running based off the timer that used for the clock on the camera that never had an issue with for the last 20 years not be able to keep the time correctly, be less accurate or be introducing any more possibilities error than the one that is running on a different system and literally control by a human on start and stop?

At least for one camera the time stamp reflected the time the image was written, rather than the time it was captured. So the resulting speeds showed how fast images could be written rather than how fast they were captured.

Apr 10, 2021 at 02:13 PM

shalu
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

Daran wrote:
At least for one camera the time stamp reflected the time the image was written, rather than the time it was captured. So the resulting speeds showed how fast images could be written rather than how fast they were captured.
We know CFExpress A can not write the image at 30FPS, so if one counts 30FPS timestamp, that can not be the timestamp when the image was written?

Apr 10, 2021 at 02:54 PM

arbitrage
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

Cudacke18 wrote:
Why would the timestamp on a camera that is running based off the timer that used for the clock on the camera that never had an issue with for the last 20 years not be able to keep the time correctly, be less accurate or be introducing any more possibilities error than the one that is running on a different system and literally control by a human on start and stop?

On the Canon R5 it was found to be the time it was actually written to the card, not the time taken. Again that may not be true for Sony. Sony time stamps may be correct for shot time....or not....try a stopwatch with precision and see if you can get 30FPS in Balanced. Also try in RTT as that supposedly drops it again according to Sony Ambassador Mark Galer. However in my testing I seemed to get 30FPS in RTT, just not in balanced.

Apr 10, 2021 at 03:24 PM

arbitrage
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

shadow9d9 wrote:
Thanks! Do you feel like there is a big enough difference between small flex and expand flex to use both? Same question with wide vs zone. Under what situation would you use wide over zone? I ask because I always use zone.

And one more question since I have you and you are pretty much the birding expert here. On my A9, I have custom buttons for 1/2000 and 1/3200 depending on the speed of the bird. What shutter speeds do you tend to use?

Thanks again for all your help! My camera arrives monday.

Between the two Flex Spots I could see just dropping down to one or the other as they don't really behave that much differently as I think the Expand prioritizes the centre small spot first anyways.

But I would not give up Wide for Zone. I used Wide the last two days for Swallows IF. I tried Zone for a short while and missed all sorts of shots. Sometimes Wide would start tracking when the bird was outside of where a Zone would have been and then it got me keepers with bird on a corner or edge of the frame where Zone wouldn't. Unless you use Zone:Tracking but I had issues with Tracking modes for the swallows as Tracking would grab distractions and never come back...non-tracking would grab distractions but go back to the bird much more often.

For more controlled BIF I use Zone mostly like you do. Really only for the very fast ones do I use Wide. Although today I even used Wide on ducks. Wide can have issues if you don't have a clean background or foreground.

Apr 10, 2021 at 03:29 PM

shadow9d9
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · BIF A1- Tracking? Zone vs wide? 1.4x ss?

Are you guys still sticking with the non tracking versions?

Apr 21, 2021 at 10:46 AM

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