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Archive 2020 · Medium format: is it worth it?

  
 
RustyBug
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Medium format: is it worth it?


flash wrote:
I've adopted the common *miniMF* term for the 33mm sensor as well but that doesn't mean medium format is being erroniously applied by the camera companies.


I think Fuji got it right with their GFX designator.

FX = Full Frame
G = Grande

Large(r than) Full Frame ... okay, splittin' hairs on semantics, just sayin'.



Nov 09, 2020 at 09:33 PM
rdeloe
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Medium format: is it worth it?


Having shot film for many years, including medium and large format -- OK, "miniLF" because it was only 4x5 -- I'm reluctant to recommend film for most folks.

For someone who is looking for something "different" compared to their digital full frame sensor, I think 645 is on the tiny side. I'd strongly recommend 6x7 or 6x9. That's no longer a cheap proposition if you want a system camera with a bunch of lenses. It's also not a light proposition (unless you get a lovely little Fuji GF670, but then you're using a fixed lens camera).

Developing your own black and white is a skill one can learn, but to get really good at controlling the results is a lot of work. And then there's scanning (unless you're planning to go analogue all the way -- which means a darkroom). Camera scanning is the way to go for ease and affordability. But there's lots to learn there too.

It's all do-able, and if you like learning and messing around, it can be fun too. But to really excel takes a ton of work (and time and money). In the cold light of day, I'm getting better results with my tiny 33mm x 44mm sensor than I ever got with 4x5 -- mostly because I can shoot so much more and improve so much faster than I could with film.



Nov 09, 2020 at 09:39 PM
theHUN
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Medium format: is it worth it?


rdeloe wrote:
... I'd strongly recommend 6x7 or 6x9. That's no longer a cheap proposition if you want a system camera with a bunch of lenses. ...


I disagree. You can get an RZ67 Pro II + 2 backs + 2 lenses for $2500. What does that buy you in digital MF?



Nov 09, 2020 at 10:27 PM
SergeyT
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Medium format: is it worth it?


>> I would steer clear of using older digital backs with older film-camera bodies in favor of using more modern, all-in-one combos, such as those from Pentax and Fuji.

Indeed !

If you really want to gain something different from what your existing 35mm digital is capable of - try the MF film route. Even the 6x4.5 may pleasantly surprise you. But then there is 6x6, 6x7, 6x8, 6x9 and all the way to 6x24. BTW GX680 can be had next to nothing nowadays and also may help you to save on your fitness expenses (by replacing trips to the gym). Jokes aside it comes with tilt, swing and shift on each and every lens.

With the right scanner and low ISO color negative film such as Ektar 100 you will quickly forget about proverbial (in the digital world) lack of DR and resolution in practically any landscape shooting situation. And then there is tons of other film emulsions out there including famous and mandatory for each landscape photographer to try - Velvia 50, true B&W, etc.
Switching from emulsion to emulsion is like shooting with a new sensor each time.
Did I mention an absolute absence of digital noise regardless of exposure time ? Keep it open for 30 minutes at dusk or dawn - no noise in the images. Keep it open for 4-6 hours at night for the star trails - no noise , all on a single expose with no blending or other "post" tricks.
A true double, exposure on the same frame ? You have it...

SergeyT



Nov 09, 2020 at 11:04 PM
rvh23
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Medium format: is it worth it?


flash wrote:
Resolution isn't the only reason one might go to a larger sensor.

As an example. Using the 33x44mm sensor in the 645Z, X1D and GFX cameras you can do extrordinary long exposures with no noise reduction and no dark frames. I do a lot of long exposure photography and 5 minutes + is pretty common for me. The Sony's (and all 135 format cameras currently) are a hotpixel mess after that time. In addition on the X1D I can set an exposure time up to an hour in camera. So for me it's a better sensor AND a better camera system
...Show more

Totally agree that shooting a 5-minute exposure on 135 sensors is asking for trouble. But there's an easy fix by simply stacking 10 x 30sec exposures. I used to shoot a lot of long exposures on 4x5 film and thought stacking would be a pain when I initially started doing long exposures with 135 sensors, but in practice find I actually have much more control of my images now. And as a bonus you can get very low noise due to the averaging.



Nov 10, 2020 at 12:51 AM
Audii-Dudii
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Medium format: is it worth it?


rvh23 wrote:
Totally agree that shooting a 5-minute exposure on 135 sensors is asking for trouble. But there's an easy fix by simply stacking 10 x 30sec exposures. I used to shoot a lot of long exposures on 4x5 film and thought stacking would be a pain when I initially started doing long exposures with 135 sensors, but in practice find I actually have much more control of my images now. And as a bonus you can get very low noise due to the averaging.


As a related aside, in my experience, one can achieve even lower noise levels if one median-blends the stacked exposures instead of averaging them. (FYI, when median-blending exposures, it's best to stack an odd number of them, so the software doesn't have to calculate the median value, but merely select it.)

Most of my photography is done at night using long exposures at base ISO and I typically median-blend between 7 and 15 exposures, depending upon the nature of the scene I'm photographing, and achieve great results from doing so.



Nov 10, 2020 at 01:50 AM
fjablo
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Medium format: is it worth it?


theHUN wrote:
I disagree. You can get an RZ67 Pro II + 2 backs + 2 lenses for $2500. What does that buy you in digital MF?


That's more than I paid for a Hasselblad H3Dii-39 + HC80mm. You can probably also get a H4D with 44xx33 sensor or a Pentax 645D, maybe even a used Fuji GFX body? And you also have to factor in the cost of film & development.

I like shooting MF film while in the field and I like the results, but everything in-between is just a pain - having to wait for development and especially digitizing...

Btw some of the MF digital bodies also take 6x4.5 film backs



Nov 10, 2020 at 02:00 AM
Makten
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Medium format: is it worth it?


theHUN wrote:
I disagree. You can get an RZ67 Pro II + 2 backs + 2 lenses for $2500. What does that buy you in digital MF?


Heh, you consider that "cheap"? I bought a Pentax 67 II with 75/4.5 and 90/2.8 for ~600 dollars. And then a 55/4 for ~100 and a 105/2.4 for ~150.

I've seen both GFX 50R and 50S for ~2500 over here, without a lens though.



Nov 10, 2020 at 04:35 AM
jeffersoncasey
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Medium format: is it worth it?


Had the GFX 50R, I enjoyed it while it was still in my hands. It has a few advantages but let me summarize it as follow:

1. The combination of GF lenses and GFX do give some mind blowing resolution. However if you can't afford to shoot steadily at 1/100 or constantly way above it, you loose the resolution advantage very quickly.

2. It's a constant struggle between not enough light and not enough DOF.

3. The color were appealing at the early stage of shooting with it, but eventually realize it has some sort of digital feel to it.

4. Even with one lens one body, carry it around for travel is pretty cumbersome and tiring compared to FF mirrorless.

Advantages of having bigger sensor is pretty well covered all over internet so you may do a search. I now shoot with Leica M, couldn't be happier with the weight and size reduction and coming from GFX50R the color output (pairing with Leica lens) blew me off the chair, literally.



Nov 10, 2020 at 05:06 AM
retrofocus
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Medium format: is it worth it?


rdeloe wrote:
Having shot film for many years, including medium and large format -- OK, "miniLF" because it was only 4x5 -- I'm reluctant to recommend film for most folks.

For someone who is looking for something "different" compared to their digital full frame sensor, I think 645 is on the tiny side. I'd strongly recommend 6x7 or 6x9. That's no longer a cheap proposition if you want a system camera with a bunch of lenses. It's also not a light proposition (unless you get a lovely little Fuji GF670, but then you're using a fixed lens camera).

Developing your own black
...Show more

I think we both are not interested to make this a film vs digital discussion (since we both shot/shoot film and digital, too - so we know the pros and cons of each medium). Prices for medium format film bodies have indeed gone up significantly especially in the last 2 years. I was lucky here and got a good deal for my mint Mamiya RZ67 Pro with film cartridge and two lenses for less than $750. I am rarely using it though due to its bulk and weight. The Mamiya lenses here are great optically but I dislike that they have no focus ring since all focusing is done with bellow in the camera (meaning I can't use the RB/RZ lenses on any other digital camera system via simple adapters). I was unexpectedly offered a full set of two V lenses with EX+ Hasselblad 500 C/M last year for $1500. I am glad I took the opportunity because it has quickly become my preferred medium format camera set - not too bulky/heavy, and I am using it now with 4 lenses (I bought two additional V-lenses which cost me about $1000). I personally prefer now the 6x6 format even over 6x7 - I got quickly used to compose in square format.

But you are right, the critical step is what to do with the developed negatives/positives afterwards. Digitizing medium format negatives takes a well thought workflow - I am personally not a fan of digitizing medium or even large format film with a 35 mm digital camera and stacking several files in PP. Instead I vested into a refurbished Epson V850 flatbed scanner for about $1K and never looked back. It already paid off for me after two years of usage. At this point I only need to pay for 120 film which isn't too bad. I already have my film development set up since I also shoot 35 mm and large format film. This is a big cost saver especially for medium format (and larger) film since having 120 film developed in an external lab isn't cheap.

As always with digital cameras, it allows to take more photos faster. If professional work depends on medium format, this is certainly the way to go. Regarding resolution and DR, you are also at least or even better with a smaller than film-based medium format sensor. For an amateur - and this is where I find myself in - cost for digital camera in comparison plays a much bigger role here, and if time is not an issue to handle film, this makes the film option more attractive. I also admit that I personally enjoy the film photography workflow. Last but not least, I see the benefit of larger frame size when limiting DoF not only for portraits but also to separate subjects from background selectively in landscape photography. That's where a larger film/sensor plane shines IMO. I find this advantage in 6x6 or 6x7 medium format photography even more important than the better resolution of larger film format.

Just one example of 6x6 photo I took last week with B&W film making use of some DoF effect with the 80/2.8 V-lens:




Nov 10, 2020 at 07:27 AM
rdeloe
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Medium format: is it worth it?


retrofocus wrote:
I think we both are not interested to make this a film vs digital discussion


+1 to that. I can't think of a less productive thing to do than argue film vs. digital. They're both great.

My point was simply that for folks like the OP, deciding you want to shoot medium format film is not like someone who shoots Canon digital deciding they want to try Fuji digital.

People focus on the dollar cost of equipment. Forget that. Let's assume it's free -- a kind friend gives you a clean body in great shape, and a set of excellent lenses. Now the real costs begin.

Any hipster with Dad's old Nikon can expose film. I presume someone who wants to invest in a medium format film outfit is going to want to become really proficient rather than just futzing around. But to become really proficient at shooting film, processing film, and scanning film is a major commitment of time and money. It's worth it if it gives you the results you're looking for (and makes you happy, and whatever else is important) -- but the cost of buying the gear is the least of it in my opinion.

It sounds like you've made that commitment, and it's working out for you. In a way you're a case in point.

P.S. For folks who want to see a hybrid film-digital workflow in action, there's a documentary on Netflix about Platon, the portrait photographer. He mostly shoots a Hasselblad 553 ELX camera and uses a 120mm Makro-Planar lens with Porta 160 and TMX 400 and that's it. Everything gets scanned and loaded into PhotoShop. Even if you don't like his work, it's always interesting to see how someone really serious does their thing.




Nov 10, 2020 at 08:35 AM
retrofocus
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Medium format: is it worth it?


rdeloe wrote:
+1 to that. I can't think of a less productive thing to do than argue film vs. digital. They're both great.

My point was simply that for folks like the OP, deciding you want to shoot medium format film is not like someone who shoots Canon digital deciding they want to try Fuji digital.

People focus on the dollar cost of equipment. Forget that. Let's assume it's free -- a kind friend gives you a clean body in great shape, and a set of excellent lenses. Now the real costs begin.

Any hipster with Dad's old Nikon can expose film. I
...Show more

Good points here again! As mentioned above, yes, film is a commitment and costs money - especially to get started with the whole workflow plus the camera/lens and accessory itself. If somebody doesn't have the patience working with film and also making disappointing experience with wrongly exposed/developed film, this option is out the door for sure. Then cost really doesn't matter since only one option for medium format remains: digital. Good news here is that there are more options to choose from today than it was just 5 years ago.

I have watched the Netflix documentary about Platon! It was a well made episode but he is a very successful professional and also showed there that he is surrounded of a whole team helping him with the workflow both for film and digital. My criticism of this episode is that they showcased an IMO exemption here using parallel workflow who has a super high reputation in his field and makes obviously good money here, too. I would have rather seen an amateur or semi-professional who does it all by her/himself - actually there is a great portrait and music photographer in TN, Laura E. Partain. I follow her since a while, she does amazing medium format film work on a professional basis.



Nov 10, 2020 at 12:35 PM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Medium format: is it worth it?


I'd like to get a fuji 33x44 at some point but idk that you are going to get one if you look at tech specs etc. Probably not a sensible thing to do. But then photography generally isn't sensible if done right


Nov 10, 2020 at 01:13 PM
flash
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Medium format: is it worth it?


theHUN wrote:
Alright, fair. But I do remember Phase One explicitly using and emphasising the term "full frame medium format", which has always bugged me.

[


Me too! I flat out refuse to use the term *full frame* and applying it like Phase One did irks me no end. In an ideal world we'd all just type in the sensor size (ie: 24x36 or 33x44) which would take no more effort than things like *medium format* and be accurate and properly descriptive. But I know I've already lost that battle.

Gordon



Nov 10, 2020 at 04:56 PM
theHUN
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Medium format: is it worth it?


No question, if a fast workflow and/or a bump in dynamic range are the OP's desires, there is no way around digital. A second-hand IQ3 with a standard lens will hopefully within reach. Great dynamic range and great colors. When I was looking for one earlier this year (on one of the other boards), several second hand units with very competitive prices slipped through my hands.


Nov 10, 2020 at 10:02 PM
motorhead9999
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Medium format: is it worth it?


Sorry for disappearing here folks.

I still haven't decided on this topic yet. Since this thread started, I discovered the Hasselblad 907x, which is (how shall I say this delicately) cheaper than other options out there, and (I feel) more reliable than getting a 14 year old digital back. Form factor wise, it appeals to me more than other Hassie digitals, and given that I think I'd need a limited set of lenses, might be doable.

Given comments on this thread, I actually somewhat seriously considered going medium format film. The fact that it's not "cropped" and makes more of a "difference" is appealing (as is the much more significantly less cost of entry). I think in the end though, I will pass on film (unless I ever find a Mamiya or Hasselblad at a garage sale). As one of the posters stated above, I don't mind shooting film in theory, and i don't mind working with the digital files you eventually get from them. I'm just far less happy about having to carry the film, travel with the film, make sure I don't screw up said film, and then the whole developing/scanning process (the latter of which, I was surprised to learn how not-simple it is). I certainly have no desire/intention to learn to develop it myself, nor make a darkroom. With that having been said I think I'm out of that game.

I saw that LensRentals has a 907x available to rent. That might be something I do. It'd cost me roughly 300 or so (plus the cost to rent whatever lenses I decide on).

As a tangent to this conversation, I won an award at an art show this past weekend (I was one of the top 8 artists at the show, and the only photographer to win an award, as the awards weren't in dedicated mediums). This was the first time I was ever in a juried show, and certainly gave me a lot more confidence/vindication that I'm not crazy that my work is good enough to legitimately be considering medium format.



Nov 18, 2020 at 05:01 PM
freaklikeme
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Medium format: is it worth it?


Congrats on the award.

Personally, I think Hassy has done quite a bit right with their X-system. I haven't used the 907x yet, but the X1DII and their central-shutter lenses are pleasures to use (as long as you're not expecting AF like you'd find on the best 135 format cameras). The versatility of the 907x, particularly if you decide to pick up a tech camera, is great.



Nov 18, 2020 at 05:45 PM
flash
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Medium format: is it worth it?


I am refusing to even look at a 907X. I will unfriend anyone who buys one. When people talk about it I go "la,la,la".........

Because I know exactly what will happen if I ever pick one up or even get close.

Gordon



Nov 19, 2020 at 05:33 PM
Sauseschritt
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Medium format: is it worth it?


Film has become absurdely expensive, so thats not really an option anymore, unless your a millionaire or use it very restrictively (like, only small format, and/or only black and white, and/or only a small number of frames; in fact a very small number of frames if you are going for large format in color because every single frame will be riddiculously expensive).


I dont really get why anyone would use anything else but Fujifilm GFX or Phase One, the later being a lot more expensive and a lot less performant in all areas except image quality.

The 907X specifically has been examined by landscape photographer Thomas Heaton and I am clueless about who would tolerate this concept:



I'm sorry but my conclusion is this is even worse than the X. Heaton himself says he cant recomment this for *anyone*. The Fujifilm 50R is much cheaper and can do the same things at least as well.



Nov 20, 2020 at 02:47 AM
fjablo
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Medium format: is it worth it?


Sauseschritt wrote:
Film has become absurdely expensive, so thats not really an option anymore, unless your a millionaire or use it very restrictively (like, only small format, and/or only black and white, and/or only a small number of frames; in fact a very small number of frames if you are going for large format in color because every single frame will be riddiculously expensive).

I dont really get why anyone would use anything else but Fujifilm GFX or Phase One, the later being a lot more expensive and a lot less performant in all areas except image quality.

The 907X specifically has been examined
...Show more

I think it has already been apparent in a couple of discussions that we have VERY different approaches & views on photography


Regarding Thomas Heaton: He also recently bought a very impractical and expensive Fuji 6x17 camera and apparently loves it although he often messes things up. The Hasselblad 907x serves a similar purpose (though not for him) - it's not the most practical camera and certainly has worse value for money on paper than a Fuji GFX 50R. But it's also very different in use and to some that alone may make up for the difference in price.



Nov 20, 2020 at 04:36 AM
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