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Archive 2020 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your p...

  
 
Artakha
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?




Recent vid I saw on the recently announced iPhone 12. For video and low light photography it's just getting closer and closer. Can't image anything other than Sony, Canon, and the rest going out of business at this rate.

Putting aside your personal feelings and opinions, how do you image dedicated SLR companies will woo the younger generations?



Oct 20, 2020 at 10:36 PM
lattesweden
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


In the 90s the Internet grew into every home and every corner of the world and everything that could be digitized was swallowed into it.

Nicholas Negroponte, Founder, and Chair Emeritus of the MIT Media Lab, wrote the book "Being Digital" in 1995 and predicted the development based on at the time, the historical, current and most likely to come technological paths. Basically he has been right about most of what he saw in the future to come. Those who acted on it and changed accordingly are still in business. Many of those who didn't already aren't around or soon won't be anymore.

Quite many choose not to act on it and just party on like it was 1999. The conservative camera business was one of them. They just bolted on APS-C sized digital film on 1950s technology based 35 mm SLR cameras which shows how bad the forward thinking was.

And when the Smartphone came in 2007, the photo industry replied with mirrorless cameras in 2008 (Panasonic G1) and it took 10 more years until 2018 before almost all companies had embraced that minor technology shift (except Pentax who went back to the future in 1955 instead, November the 12th to be precise).

I think we need to be prepared that with the development we see now & how late to the current party the photo industry is & how little they seem to understand why people chooses the smartphones over their products that in a not so distant future those free standing stills cameras that still exists will be low volume expensive medium format ones.

Small sensor systems will be mainly for airborne video applications (drones) and there will also be a market for high end 4/8K video cameras for the film industry, sports events etc, both super-35 (APS-C) and FF formats. These professional grade video cameras will go down in price from todays levels and more into what FF bodys costs today. Maybe these will also come with good enough still image capture options so that some photo enthusiasts buys them.

The rest will use the smartphone.




Oct 20, 2020 at 10:42 PM
zoetmb2
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


I think what we consider "real" photography is going to die out with the current generation of photographers. I would guess, but don't really know for sure, that most of the people who post here and on other photography sites are "older" and it seems to be almost all male.

Going forward, I think studio pros, fashion, product photography, sports, nature, weddings and things of that ilk will require "large" cameras for some time to come. But those are niches and there's not enough people participating in them to support the industry. So the industry is going to get a lot smaller and not all the camera companies are going to survive. The CIPA companies are only going to sell about 4 million ILC units this year worldwide. By comparison, Apple alone will sell something like 175 million iPhones.

Time will tell whether the promises of Apple's iPhone 12 hold up in the field. But the demo and the specs are quite impressive for both stills and video. 4K 10-bit internal RAW with Dolby Vision would be quite impressive in a high end mirrorless or DSLR. It's amazing in a phone. Apple claimed one can opt to carry over all the computations to their (free) editor and adjust. I simply don't see how the traditional camera companies can keep up because they don't have the resources that Apple, Samsung and others have.



Oct 21, 2020 at 12:07 AM
philip_pj
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


I'll wait for the Zeiss Apple hybrid phone, the black screen ZXA-1, due sometime.

'how do you image dedicated SLR companies will woo the younger generations?'

It's a Sony forum, they have not made an SLR in 12 years. They are giving the a7c a go. I can't image the other companies however, perhaps try over at the Canon and Nikon forums? They still make SLRs of the digital variety I believe, but they appear to have lost their dedicated a bit, along with their mojo. Not to forget Leica and the rest, all have made untold more SLRs than Sony.

It's still a mystery why we end up with these phonography threads here.



Oct 21, 2020 at 12:44 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


If you are into photography as artistic expression, then most people are going to find any cell phone camera to be quite seriously limited. It might and already has replaced for some people what would be a travel camera kit, but there is no reason for cell phone makers to have cameras that do all the things that a dedicated camera can do well. If you care about those things and your photography as an artistic expression, then you will want a dedicated camera system.

Let's look at four genres of how this is the case and likely will continue to be the case. Let's start with landscape photography. You can certainly take quite good landscape shots with your cell phone, but if you care about landscape photography as an art form, then you will probably want a range of focal lengths to capture you shots (way more than they are ever likely to put in a cell phone). You will also probably want to use filters for things like polarization, which can't be mimicked with computational photography. These are two simple ways that it doesn't seem likely that cell phones are going to replace a dedicated camera any time in the foreseeable future.

Now let's take portrait photography. It is certainly the case that you can take quite decent portraits with a cell phone, but if you want to push photography as an art form with portraits, then you will probably want to consider using flash or other off camera lighting to push the artistic boundaries of portraits. You may also likely want to use lenses that render in unique and interesting way to capture your artistic vision. These are things that in the foreseeable future are not going to be replaced by cell phones.

Now let's take wildlife photography. This one is rather obvious in that if you want to push wildlife photography as an art form you will likely want some long focal length lenses. That quite clearly won't be happening with cell phones any time in the foreseeable future.

Finally, let's take sports photography. Here again the limitations of cell phones are rather obvious. They won't provide long enough lenses and they won't shoot fast enough to really push sports as an expression of one's art.

I don't think these are the only genres where cell phones won't replace dedicated cameras in the foreseeable future either. So, I can see cell phone being enough for some people, but I simply don't think they will very often at all be enough for people who want their photography to be an art form.

That will be true of the younger generation as much as baby boomers and Gen Xers.



Oct 21, 2020 at 12:45 AM
Zayne12
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


It seems to me that the lower end of the camera market is what got affected to he honest. Full frame cameras and their lenses have always had a higher barrier to entry for the younger audience who could barely afford point and shoots that cost $350. I remember being in that situation when I saved up to purchase a $600 nex 5 with a kit lens in 2010. I couldn't even afford the 55-210 lens that cost around 259~350 at the time. I was out of money. And the $1000 Zeiss 24 f1.8 was well out of the question I was a college student who couldn't afford to buy these things and most college students are in the same boat. Soi while the market is definitely contracting it's the sales of pint and shoot and lower end cameras that have been taking the hit more so than the more professional camera set ups. Phones have been picking up in speed but their quality is far from reaching that of higher end gear. As good as their fake bokeh is it still has flaws that have been demonstrated from other members on here.


Oct 21, 2020 at 01:26 AM
SoundHound
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


At this time for me it’s not one instead of the other it’s both. I bought the iPhone 11 Pro Max for it’s 3 cameras and am looking forward to owning the 12 Pro. Max for even better cameras-not 5G.

I started photography in 1967 and I have seen a lot of changes. I’m mystified why there’s (still) no easy/semiautomatic way to move selected Hero shots from my A9 or A7r IV by direct eMail. I’m certainly not going to pay $6000 for a Zeiss mirrorless with a crippled design.




Oct 21, 2020 at 02:22 AM
Slalom
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


Gosh, I was discussing phones v cameras with my son last night.

Back at the pixel 4 google did a big exercise on noise reduction. they took images before you pressed the shutter so they had about a dozen to average. Further they produced 3 mages from each with a with hi and low illumination passes. Then averaged hi, medium and low, then they built the image, with good low noise for the tiny pixels. a lot of android phones may have a dedicated image processor for this that is started by the camera.

They then gave this away, a process they stopped for the Pixel 6 enhancements.

I don't know for certain Apple do this but they must reduce noise from the tiny pixels somehow.

I agree with Steve Spencer, great pictures, but not special.

I moved up from aps-c because I could not really limit focal depth, My son was ecstatic when he got a photo of the rail line into the station focused to the horizon, a Pixel 6 stunner, I was dismayed!



Oct 21, 2020 at 04:48 AM
hesb
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


And if we talk about video, the fact that it is mostly impossible to manual focus an iphone is a real limit for me. Having 4k 10bits and blabla is a thing. Beeing able to manually focus and defocus a subject for artistic purpose is much more important for many videographer, even in 8bit 1080p only!!!


Oct 21, 2020 at 05:08 AM
hesb
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


Also it is interesting to see how argentic photography has found a new life these last years and why.

I think it is mostly due to the importance of understanding and controling all the parameters in the users experience.

It is not only the results, but the use of the gear that is important.

Another example: AF even if af has made huge improvements these last years, there's still a place for high quality manual lenses and not only for video.

To be honnest with a A9 I don't think there are a lot of occasion to miss a shot because of af... OTOH manual focus is not always easy and quick. But We are still using and buying this kind of old fashion lenses...



Oct 21, 2020 at 05:19 AM
LBJ2
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


This topic will pop up on camera forums each time a new mobile phone camera model is introduced. Camera phones are now coming with multiple and larger sensors for each and multiple lens incorporated in the mobile phone body. How many more sensors in a camera phone will it take to compete with the look and quality of Full Frame cameras? With all the super impressive technology leaps we see in each new iteration it will not be long...

We all know the mobile phone camera has taken over, even commands the P&S/Snappers market full stop.That was news already some years ago. Even our favorite camera manufacturers have all recognized what they lost, the impact on their market and their own business/product models. Camera phones have always been mirrorless BTW.

Let's flip this around. Why can't we imagine much of this new mobile phone camera technology and wireless content distribution capabilities in a proper full frame camera with current selection of proper lenses? Sony can probably already do this to some extent, but at what cost for R&D and production?

IMO IF the camera companies were able to put as much current mobile phone photography/videography and image/content distribution technology in a full frame camera, then we might see a true awakening of the camera market. Problem is, they have now lost the huge Snapper market revenue stream and any new leaps in current traditional camera technology has to be funded otherwise, AKA rising prices for traditional cameras and lenses.

Lots of heavy duty tech and heat management required to do what I am suggesting in a traditional camera body with FF level of data to push around, maybe the new silicon chip technology ( Apple Silicon/ARM) is part of the answer.



Oct 21, 2020 at 05:28 AM
Alan Yuen
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


"why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists"

For me, its about the quality you get from a dedicated specialist device.

Sure my phone is a jack of all traits, triple camera etc etc, great for quick snaps and sharing with family on compressed whatsapp. Nice to pair with some airpods for casual listening/watching youtube.

But then I also carry an actual camera and digital audio player with some high end earphones/headphones, because these specialist devices just do everything better.





Oct 21, 2020 at 05:51 AM
LBJ2
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


Artakha wrote:
Recent vid I saw on the recently announced iPhone 12. For video and low light photography it's just getting closer and closer. Can't image anything other than Sony, Canon, and the rest going out of business at this rate.

Putting aside your personal feelings and opinions, how do you image dedicated SLR companies will woo the younger generations?


Nothing in the current mobile phone market going to force/cause Sony and Canon to go out of business ( not even a sliver of a chance). My guess is current camera/lenses revenue is no more than a drop in the bucket for Sony annual revenue. However, Sony's own mobile phone business might be a different story.

Current traditional camera tech and lenses do not woo the vast majority of younger generation excepting maybe the very few/minuscule that decide to go into the professional field and for those, they don't have much choice other than to use professional tools.



Oct 21, 2020 at 05:56 AM
Matt Grum
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


It wont be smartphones that kill off the industry it will be the dawning of the cameraless photography age. You can already generate photorealistic images of landscapes, faces etc. entirely within the computer.

If you want to take the perfect holiday selfie, why bother with with the antiquated method of desperately trying to focus light rays onto a tiny piece of silicon? Why not just use GPS to get your location, pull in a 3D model, chose the type of lighting, clouds, clothing you want, enter you ideal weight, and a server somewhere generates the image to send to your phone.

However just like with film there will always be some demand from people who actually want to do it the old fashioned way which means at least some market to exploit. R&D budgets will be a fraction of what they were in 2010, so don't expect rapid releases or large improvements with each generation. To be honest I really don't need my camera to be much better than it is now, I could certainly cope with only replacing it when it totally wears out.



Oct 21, 2020 at 07:14 AM
Jay Ford
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


Funny thing about any of the computational-enhanced cameras I've seen: experienced photographers get great results with them, everyone else gets mediocre most times, and hot garbage surprisingly often.

I do magazine layout for a couple of print publications (yes, still) and, especially during the pandemic, we get submissions taken from phones. It's clear Apple's marketing has convinced people they can buy skill, and just as clear they cannot.



Oct 21, 2020 at 08:11 AM
chez
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


Jay Ford wrote:
Funny thing about any of the computational-enhanced cameras I've seen: experienced photographers get great results with them, everyone else gets mediocre most times, and hot garbage surprisingly often.

I do magazine layout for a couple of print publications (yes, still) and, especially during the pandemic, we get submissions taken from phones. It's clear Apple's marketing has convinced people they can buy skill, and just as clear they cannot.


But it doesn't matter what you think about the photos taken by the iPhone crowd...it's what they think about them...and the amount that get pushed onto social media these days tells me they are very excited with the photos they take. So much so that they do not need to drag along a dedicated camera with them everywhere they go.



Oct 21, 2020 at 08:24 AM
NunoC
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


I'd offer a different view and say the current situation is transitory.

Phones give impressive results with "computational photography" for a couple of reasons. There is no shutter, so when you capture a photo, in reality the phone will be looking at the last few seconds of continuous exposure and merging multiple frames to build your photo, and it has those frames to work with as independent units so it can distort them and stabilise camera and subjects. And second, it's where the action is, both in terms of silicon and algorithmic development; it's where you get the biggest payoff, RoI, for innovating.

But it doesn't need to be like this in perpetuity. Sooner ou later, you can bring this tech to standalone cameras (global/electronic shutters, silicon, and algorithms) and then cameras will be better than phones at this too *. Some of that exists already in expensive cameras, like the A9 series. And for most it won't be worth the expense. But I don't think that kills cameras, it only makes them more niche.

* The silicon/algorithms can even be left to post-processing. All you need to be able to do is, as on phones, for every exposure, record not only the "actual" picture, but also a 1 second, 60 frame, RAW movie of the second before you even pressed the shutter. That gives the computational photography in Sony this or Adobe something more data to work with. Our cameras are already live view, the only limitation is how much of this we can actually capture and record in a way that is similarly helpful (as on phones). That's maybe harder to do on a full-frame sensor, but we'll get there.



Oct 21, 2020 at 08:39 AM
PIOK
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


I won't replace my MLC / DSLR, but iPhone is amazing as additional tool ( sometimes I use iPhone 8 and I like many things about it .... but once I upload this into my iMac 27 ... is sucks even my Sony RX100 III is better - but for sure iPhone 11 or 12 should be much better )

http://austinmann.com/trek/iphone-12-pro-camera-review-glacier




Oct 21, 2020 at 08:52 AM
bobby350z
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


I wish some of the computational photography tricks were available in our cameras but I it takes a lot more software engineering resources than people think. It is amazing that my Pixel can shoot the galaxy or blur the back ground pretty good. And add studio light features. But for serious people who hang here, there are big differences in what the phone can do and what your camera can do.


Oct 21, 2020 at 09:10 AM
Jman13
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · why buy an expensive SLR when computational photography exists on your phone?


The industry won't die, but I feel it will contract to where it was in the 90s. During the film era, pretty much only serious hobbyists and professionals owned SLRs and an array of lenses. The explosion of digital was really an anomaly in the industry, where casual shooters ended up picking up DSLRs when they became cheap enough because the quality gap in digital imaging was so big vs. the compact digital cameras. And phone cameras weren't really a thing (or those that did exist were AWFUL).

Once the phones became good enough for the average person, dedicated cameras were never going to be in someone's kit bag. They are the modern equivalent of the disposable camera / compact film camera of the 80s and 90s. Except they take better pictures than premium compacts from 2010.

Those of us in the hobby and pros will continue to use high end gear because as good as phones get, they are still bound by physics. The new Pixels and iPhones can create very nice images, but they still pale in comparison to a decent SLR or mirrorless camera from even 10-15 years ago.

I mean, here's a sample from the iPhone 12's ultrawide camera at night. Is it good? For a phone, yeah, it's not bad at all. Compared to what you can get even on a Canon 40D from 2007? It's garbage. Compared to modern cameras, it's not even close. But that's fine for 99% of people who take pictures.


As a closer comparison, I also did two sorts of photos back to back in Death Valley last year. One with my A7 III and Tamron 17-28mm f/2.8, and the other with my Pixel 4 in astrophotography mode (on a tripod). The pixel did amazingly well for a phone, but, well, not exactly the same as the A7 III (and while the pixel shot here certainly looks rather good....zooming in to full size, the detail falls apart on close examination). I would imagine the phone shot would be good enough for most people, as it looks pretty good when reduced for web size or viewed on a phone. However, it would really only print well to about 4x6". The A7 III shot made a lovely 12x18" print, and likely could be blown up to 30" without much trouble.

Pixel 4:
https://www.jordansteele.com/2019/stars_pixel.jpg

A7 III:
https://www.jordansteele.com/2019/dune_stars2.jpg

Edited on Oct 21, 2020 at 11:58 AM · View previous versions



Oct 21, 2020 at 09:14 AM
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