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Archive 2020 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

joeshaw
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

Hi,
I have been browsing forums and learning things here.
I find almost none picture in Landscape forum taken by M43 camera. All seems to be from FF or few APS-C. Not just here, but in other websites too.
Is it because FF is much more helpful because of DR in comparison to M43? Where is the limitation of M43 (for example E-M1), which is less helpful in doing landscape work?
I understand small sensor will show some noise in unfavorable light, but won't fast lens and long exposure (in case of landscapes, which are still) show equivalent quality?
Thanks

Oct 06, 2020 at 08:25 PM

The Rat
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

I roll EM1 Mk2 in hi-res mode for landscapes, but I also realize I'm an absurd minority in this.

Oct 06, 2020 at 09:40 PM

BidinTime
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

The OP has touched on a problem I noticed on a website that I used to frequent:
People posting images based on the gear used, not the genre of the photo.

Why? I can see posting an image in the m43 if it's to solve a gear-related problem.

Otherwise, it seems you're trying to hide.

Think of your audience when posting. And consider your motivation.

Oct 06, 2020 at 10:49 PM

galenapass
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

BidinTime wrote:
The OP has touched on a problem I noticed on a website that I used to frequent:
People posting images based on the gear used, not the genre of the photo.

Why? I can see posting an image in the m43 if it's to solve a gear-related problem.

Otherwise, it seems you're trying to hide.

Think of your audience when posting. And consider your motivation.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Could you rephrase that? How did we go from no one shoots landscapes with m43 to hiding and having to think about motivation? Not trying to argue, just trying to understand your point.

Edited on Oct 06, 2020 at 11:57 PM · View previous versions

Oct 06, 2020 at 10:58 PM

galenapass
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

Oct 06, 2020 at 11:24 PM

galenapass
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

Getting a little off topic, if you have never shot with a foveon sensor, then you are in for a shock the first time you zoom to 100%. Sigma DP2, 15 MPx3 APS-C size sensor.

100% crop

Oct 06, 2020 at 11:50 PM

joeshaw
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

Currently I am shooting with E-M1 (initial version) with 12-40mm f2.8 and 40-150mm f2.8. Was getting interested in UWA since sometime.
I don't have experience with any other sensor size.

Oct 07, 2020 at 12:09 AM

galenapass
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

The EM1 has a older relatively noisy sensor. But, any camera can take great shots with the right subject and light. I kept mine to do B&W because the noise to me looks a lot like grain from back in the film days. Maybe you should learn how to stitch your shots together in PS (maybe you already do this)? You can make the 12mm end of the 12-40 a little wider by stitching. With the EM1 I would always shoot at or close to the native base ISO when doing landscapes (if I recall that is ISO 100) and I would work off a tripod if necessary to keep ISO at 100-400 in lower light.

I don't do a lot of landscapes. First one is the EM1, second is the EM5ii.

This one was at ISO 500, 40mm using the 12-40.

EM5ii ISO 200, 40mm using 40-150

Edited on Oct 07, 2020 at 01:25 AM · View previous versions

Oct 07, 2020 at 12:48 AM

joeshaw
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

My EM1 is old and I want to upgrade it. My initial thought was to upgrade to EM1 iii. I am watching beautiful BIF from @Imagemaster on this forum. But when I browse landscape forum, most of the pictures were taken from bigger sensor, so I mentioned same in my initial post.

I read about Z6/Z7 and today I visited camera shop to compare both systems side-by-side. With standard lenses on both, there is 288g difference, but Nikon looks bigger. Because Oly's lenses are solid metal, while Nikon is plastic. It was looking awkward to me. May be I am used to less volume in my hands, I am not used to hold bigger system (yet).
I am going to rent it and will see if this can make me forget its volume in comparison to Olympus. Though Olympus and its lenses are very handy and comfortable. Even 300mm was not massive for its range.
This was my confusion, so posted that question

Oct 07, 2020 at 01:10 AM

galenapass
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

Well, MFT users are in the minority already. But for landscape shooting, I am not sure I see a lot of advantage to MFT, unless it is for travel. So even a smaller fraction will be MFT users in the landscape forums. It will be interesting to see what you think about the Z6/Z7. Nikon makes some really nice glass.

Oct 07, 2020 at 01:23 AM

joeshaw
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

Understood.
That is what I am trying to learn, how big is the difference and what limitation can I see between both systems and how this additional volume/weight will help me.

Oct 07, 2020 at 01:56 AM

pr4photos
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

I have a Z6, and the body is smaller than my G9!
Couple that with the 24-70mm f4 and 14-30mm f4 S lenses, and you have a better kit than an m43 kit can offer.
Only disadvantage is when it comes to longer focal lengths, as m43 has much smaller lenses

Oct 07, 2020 at 04:14 AM

The Rat
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

My reasoning for going Olympus a few years back was that it had the reputation for being very heavily weatherproofed. At the time, the Sony A7R3 was my other potential choice, but I read a bunch of less than favorable things about its reliability when it came to moisture and weather. So, here I am.

Oct 07, 2020 at 07:40 AM

kwalsh
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

joeshaw wrote:
Is it because FF is much more helpful because of DR in comparison to M43?

It isn't just DR actually. Mid-tone noise, like in a blue sky, is much lower (about two stops) in FF when exposed at base ISO. More photons gathered means less shot noise.

Where is the limitation of M43 (for example E-M1), which is less helpful in doing landscape work?

Depending on the camera chosen resolution is one limitation. But even comparing say 24MP FF and 20MP m43 the lowest noise achievable in a single exposure is about two stops better for FF.

I understand small sensor will show some noise in unfavorable light, but won't fast lens and long exposure (in case of landscapes, which are still) show equivalent quality?

Again, no. The advantage to FF is that you can simply gather up more photons in a single exposure at base ISO.

Where FF and m43 do give essentially the same image quality is when we are constrained both by needing enough depth of field (keeping things at different distances in focus) and needing a fast enough shutter speed (limited by subject motion). Of course you might be able to get a FF camera with higher resolution, but ignoring that from the perspective of noise if I'm constrained both by needing a deep DoF and a fast shutter the two formats give the same image quality.

Where FF has an advantage is if you can remove one of those constraints. So if shutter speed is not constrained than you can use a longer maximum exposure on FF to get lower noise than on m43. Or if DoF is not constrained and you have a fast enough lens you can use shallower DoF to again gather up more light in the same exposure time as m43.

Landscape where we can usually arbitrarily extend the exposure time is thus a case where FF has an advantage. About two stops though of course the details of what exactly are the base ISOs on each camera matter as well.

Since this is really just about gathering more light/photons we can work around the limitation by simply combining multiple exposures. Some m43 cameras let you do this in camera where LiveND or HighRes modes effectively reduce noise by combining exposures in camera. Or we can just take multiple exposures in the field and average them in post processing.

Note that HDR is a bit of special case which primarily improves noise in the shadow areas. This can be an issue in some landscapes but isn't a cure-all. Even in relatively low dynamic range scenes if you start to boost contrast, clarity and saturation or make strong color channel moves in a B&W conversion you'll find your mid-tones start to fall apart even at base ISO on m43 and HDR will do little to improve over a single ETTR exposure in this cases. You'd need to actually do exposure averaging not HDR to help in this situation.

So using FF for landscape is really about convenience. You can get much more done in a single exposure from a FF camera. You absolutely can work around that in m43 with multiple exposure techniques, but that is more hassle in the field and post.

When I'm hiking I take a GM1/12-32/35-100 with me and shoot multiple exposures to get the IQ that I want. The hassle of dealing with multiple exposures in the field and in post is worth not carrying around a larger system.

When I'm doing dedicated photography at twilight usually not too far from a vehicle then I use a FF system instead. It is more convenient and easy to use. But this is a recent thing for me, in the past I used m43 in twilight as well and used multi-exposure techniques as needed.

And of course at a certain image size none of the differences matter. Of the below one is a Nikon Z7, one is a Panasonic G1 and one is an iPhone SE:

https://photos.smugmug.com/Trips/Death-Valley/Death-Valley-Oct-2018/i-jTW2Zc5/0/4a8ab3cc/X3/APC_0391-X3.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Trips/Death-Valley/Death-Valley-Jan-2020/i-dtNF93G/0/c608404b/X3/200127_DVNP__DSC0313-X3.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Pretty-Pictures/Ten-Years-of-Micro-Four-Thirds/i-PwkLFfw/0/964b5350/X3/101022_NorthAZ_P7020832-X3.jpg

Oct 07, 2020 at 08:38 AM

galenapass
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

Wow. That last shot is something! Very "Zeiss like".

Oct 07, 2020 at 08:42 AM

The Rat
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

Seriously, hot dang, that is nice!

Oct 07, 2020 at 09:29 AM

nma
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

joeshaw wrote:
Hi,
I have been browsing forums and learning things here.
I find almost none picture in Landscape forum taken by M43 camera. All seems to be from FF or few APS-C. Not just here, but in other websites too.
Is it because FF is much more helpful because of DR in comparison to M43? Where is the limitation of M43 (for example E-M1), which is less helpful in doing landscape work?
I understand small sensor will show some noise in unfavorable light, but won't fast lens and long exposure (in case of landscapes, which are still) show equivalent quality?
Thanks

This has been argued many times. IIf your photography is fixed on landscape photography and you make giant prints, it makes sense to get a FF or MF camera along with the best lenses available. However, if you do general photography, you are out in all weather, or you have physical limitations that affect your ability to tote a full complement of FF gear, you should consider MFT cameras. About 10 years ago, I switched from Canon 5Dii to EM1.1 and then to EM5.ii and then to EM1.ii. With the Oly 12-40 mm zoom and other lenses, ALL of these cameras can produce excellent 17x22 inch prints. The 17x22 is not the maximum print size, but the largest desktop printer commonly available. These prints are better than I could make with my 5Dii and I defy anyone to print the scene better at 17x22 in with a FF raw image. I am certain that excellent prints up to 30x40 inches can be made with MFT as long as proper exposure and technique are used. Are you a PRO landscape photographer who sells prints of your work? Maybe you need FF. The rest of you are just kidding yourself. You don't need FF unless you regularly make large prints. For you, FF is a want, not a need.

Optimizing landscape photography with MFT format is necessary to reach the best quality. Good lenses, maybe a tripod but the most important thing is proper exposure. This means full exposure to ensure that the highlights are shown at the far right of your histogram. There are great deals on EM1.iii now.

Oct 07, 2020 at 09:38 AM

Robin Smith
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

This is because most enthusiasts have full frame cameras because that is the way it went about 10 years or so ago. Everyone bought FF cameras as these had the 20MP or so sensors that were demononstrably better than any 35mm film. Then people stick with what they know. Only the wise realize that giant lenses and systems are no longer needed to get great pictures

, and it is these chosen ones who have migrated to smaller formats.

Oct 07, 2020 at 09:38 AM

kwalsh
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

galenapass wrote:
Wow. That last shot is something! Very "Zeiss like".

Thanks!

Amazing what the old “noisy” 12MP sensor in the Panasonic G1 could do along with just its “kit lens”.

Oct 07, 2020 at 01:03 PM

bobbytan
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Why all landscape pictures from FF only?

Diego Martin (dukenukem) is an amazing landscape shooter who used to post on this forum but he had stopped posting about a couple of years now for some unknown reason. Check out his gallery here:

https://www.diegogm.es/Galeria

You can also find some great landscape images on these older threads but you will have to cull through the mostly wildlife and bird images - because of the sheer popularity of the Olympus 300 PRO lens:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1465619
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/928678

Some of my Italian landscape images:

https://yinyang.zenfolio.com/p87626256

Oct 07, 2020 at 05:20 PM

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