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Archive 2020 · R5 artificial time limit

  
 
snapsy
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · R5 artificial time limit


Jesse Evans wrote:
It obviously has to do with thermals. It is just a matter of how much it has to do with thermals, and how much it has to do with intentionally preventing people from using the camera as a primary video tool.

Not that it is really relevant but I am not bashing Canon, and neither are most of the people in this thread Canon haters. I paid above MSRP to buy a Canon EOS R5 from a user in this very thread.

Now, with all of that out of the way: the reason so many people suspect intentional crippling of record
...Show more

I have no brand loyalty myself so we're on the same page there. I don't agree that alternate explanations are predicated on brand loyalty since I have alternate theories and none are based on that. What many are attributing or assuming to be intentional crippling can just as easily be explained in engineering terms on how a thermal-management could work (or not work well in this case). The point being there is simply not enough evidence yet to make sweeping conclusions either way, and plenty of conflicting evidence against any one theory.



Aug 11, 2020 at 12:17 PM
quantumloop
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · R5 artificial time limit


snapsy wrote:
No question the R5's recording limits are a disappointment. But that's different than claiming it's intentional. Being cool to the touch on the exterior doesn't mean an internal chip didn't exceed Canon's threshold.


I feel better about any heat limitation being more software based than some problem with the design. At least it means the engineers have done their job well and the camera is sound internally.

Now one can argue the reasons why...




Aug 11, 2020 at 12:21 PM
snapsy
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · R5 artificial time limit


quantumloop wrote:
I feel better about any heat limitation being more software based than some problem with the design. At least it means the engineers have done their job well and the camera is sound internally.

Now one can argue the reasons why...


If I had to guess I'd say Canon erred on the side of conservative when designing their thermal management logic. Heat is not just an immediate issue with reliability but also an intermediate-to-long term issue as well. Roger Cicala has spoken at length on how their Canon DSLR video rentals incur significantly more PCB/chip repair issues than stills rentals. The R5/R6 is a hybrid camera but can be argued a stills camera first and that may be what factored into Canon's equations for longevity and thermals. With all the negative press and pushback they're receiving they may be rethinking that balance, the same as Sony did when they added a higher firmware thermal threshold option in the A6300 after its initial release.



Aug 11, 2020 at 12:36 PM
snapsy
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · R5 artificial time limit


Jesse Evans wrote:
If people need more evidence of Canon's intentional market segmentation at the expense of utility: Canon produced the R5, and R6 simultaneously. You *cannot get* BOTH reliable 4k and reliable high frame rate video from *either camera*. If you want to be a Canon hybrid shooter and want reliable full frame 4k and reliable 120fps 1080p, you have to buy both the R5 and the R6.

Which other 45+MP camera on the market presently shoots oversampled 4K 60fps full-frame video?



Aug 11, 2020 at 01:28 PM
Atlasman2
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · R5 artificial time limit


snapsy wrote:
Which other 45+MP camera on the market presently shoots oversampled 4K 60fps full-frame video?


The R5 only shoots 4K oversampled video in APSC.



Aug 11, 2020 at 01:35 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · R5 artificial time limit


snapsy wrote:
Which other 45+MP camera on the market presently shoots oversampled 4K 60fps full-frame video?


None, neither does the Canon. The Panasonic S1R can do line skipped 4k60 just fine without overheating. It stops after 10 minutes of footage, but can be resumed easily.

And it isn't material to the discussion point, which is that Canon excluded 1080p60 and 1080p120 from the R5, meaning you have no high frame rate mode which is not subject to the "overheating" restrictions.



Aug 11, 2020 at 01:42 PM
snapsy
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · R5 artificial time limit


Jesse Evans wrote:
None, neither does the Canon. The Panasonic S1R can do line skipped 4k60 just fine without overheating.


Is the fact that another camera can do it without overheating evidence that Canon intentionally crippled the R5 from doing it? I own the S1R - it's a much larger/heavier camera and Panasonic designed them like tanks I use my S1 for video though.



Aug 11, 2020 at 01:49 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · R5 artificial time limit


snapsy wrote:
Is the fact that another camera can do it without overheating evidence that Canon intentionally crippled the R5 from doing it? I own the S1R - it's a much larger/heavier camera and Panasonic designed them like tanks I use my S1 for video though.


I didn't say that it was evidence that Canon intentionally crippled the R5. All of the evidence that Canon has artificially limited the R5 is based on testing and teardowns of the R5.

The question was asked whether another camera with 45+MP shoots 4k60. The answer is no, because there is no 45+MP that shoots oversampled full frame 4k60, including the R5, which does not.

For 45+MP full frame cameras shooting 4k60, you have the S1R, and the SL2.



Aug 11, 2020 at 02:02 PM
Atlasman2
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · R5 artificial time limit


Jesse Evans wrote:
None, neither does the Canon. The Panasonic S1R can do line skipped 4k60 just fine without overheating. It stops after 10 minutes of footage, but can be resumed easily.

And it isn't material to the discussion point, which is that Canon excluded 1080p60 and 1080p120 from the R5, meaning you have no high frame rate mode which is not subject to the "overheating" restrictions.


The R5 has 1080/60, but not 120.



Aug 11, 2020 at 02:04 PM
snapsy
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · R5 artificial time limit


Jesse Evans wrote:
I didn't say that it was evidence that Canon intentionally crippled the R5.


My apologies but this reads to me like that's indeed what you said:

"If people need more evidence of Canon's intentional market segmentation at the expense of utility: Canon produced the R5, and R6 simultaneously. You *cannot get* BOTH reliable 4k and reliable high frame rate video from *either camera*. If you want to be a Canon hybrid shooter and want reliable full frame 4k and reliable 120fps 1080p, you have to buy both the R5 and the R6."

Jesse Evans wrote:
All of the evidence that Canon has artificially limited the R5 is based on testing and teardowns of the R5.


That same evidence can be interpreted as being overly conservative on the thermals. To say it's an artificial limitation is premature. Was the A6300's 4K recording duration artificially limited before they updated the firmware with a higher thermal threshold option?



Aug 11, 2020 at 02:08 PM
Andrew J
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · R5 artificial time limit


Atlasman2 wrote:
The R5 has 1080/60, but not 120.


I believe Canon stated the next firmware update will give 1080/120.




Aug 11, 2020 at 02:44 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · R5 artificial time limit


Canon hasn't said anything yet that I am aware of, just rumors at this point


Addition of Cinema RAW light option to 8K recording
Addition of CLog 3
Increased record time limits (but don’t expect a huge boost)
Various bug fixes



Aug 11, 2020 at 04:27 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · R5 artificial time limit


snapsy wrote:
My apologies but this reads to me like that's indeed what you said:

"If people need more evidence of Canon's intentional market segmentation at the expense of utility: Canon produced the R5, and R6 simultaneously. You *cannot get* BOTH reliable 4k and reliable high frame rate video from *either camera*. If you want to be a Canon hybrid shooter and want reliable full frame 4k and reliable 120fps 1080p, you have to buy both the R5 and the R6."

That same evidence can be interpreted as being overly conservative on the thermals. To say it's an artificial limitation is premature. Was the
...Show more

Please let's not twist words around, I was responding to your question here, which I quoted and it should have been very obvious:

snapsy wrote:
Is the fact that another camera can do it without overheating evidence that Canon intentionally crippled the R5 from doing it? I own the S1R - it's a much larger/heavier camera and Panasonic designed them like tanks I use my S1 for video though.


I never implied that the S1R has anything to do with it.



Aug 11, 2020 at 04:41 PM
snapsy
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · R5 artificial time limit


Jesse Evans wrote:
Please let's not twist words around, I was responding to your question here, which I quoted and it should have been very obvious:

I never implied that the S1R has anything to do with it.

I don't understand where you see words being twisted. And you were the first to mention the S1R. Nevertheless, there is still no definitive evidence of intentional crippling by way of the thermal recording limits. All I see is a collection of circumstantial evidence and presuppositions.

Hypothetical question - What reason would Canon have to artificially limit the recording time of the R5/R6, especially after their marketing campaign made video a primary focus of the cameras? Is it steer professional video users to the rumored upcoming line of RF-based cine cameras? If so, why go through the trouble of even marketing the R5/R6 as video-feature-centric cameras? Do we believe Canon thinks people would buy the R5/R6 based on published 4K/8K video specs alone with no concern for recording limits?



Aug 11, 2020 at 04:43 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · R5 artificial time limit


snapsy wrote:
I don't understand where you see words being twisted. And you were the first to mention the S1R. Nevertheless, there is still no definitive evidence of intentional crippling by way of the thermal recording limits. All I see is a collection of circumstantial evidence and presuppositions.


Because you quoted me responding to a different question, and made it out to be about a different post. The discussion about the R6 and R5 market segmentation were not about the overheating, but that Canon continues to engage in artificial market segmentation.


Hypothetical question - What reason would Canon have to artificially limit the recording time of the R5/R6, especially after their marketing campaign made video a primary focus of the cameras? Is it steer professional video users to the rumored upcoming line of RF-based cine cameras? If so, why go through the trouble of even marketing the R5/R6 as video-feature-centric cameras? Do we believe Canon thinks people would buy the R5/R6 based on published 4K/8K video specs alone with no concern for recording limits?


Yes, you hit the nail on the head. If true, the theory would be that people would primarily not care, and those that did care would upgrade to their cinema line.

And I think that would actually remain true were it not for the launch of the A7s III.

I think all in all, the EOS R5 is a very good camera, and it has also been intentionally prevented from being as useful of a tool as it should be in order to provide an artificial upgrade path for the future.



Aug 11, 2020 at 05:21 PM
snapsy
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · R5 artificial time limit


Jesse Evans wrote:
Because you quoted me responding to a different question, and made it out to be about a different post. The discussion about the R6 and R5 market segmentation were not about the overheating, but that Canon continues to engage in artificial market segmentation.


You said "If people need more evidence of Canon's intentional market segmentation at the expense of utility: Canon produced the R5, and R6 simultaneously. You *cannot get* BOTH reliable 4k and reliable high frame rate video from *either camera*. If you want to be a Canon hybrid shooter and want reliable full frame 4k and reliable 120fps 1080p, you have to buy both the R5 and the R6."

You specifically referred to "*cannot get* BOTH reliable 4k and high frame rate video". What reliability issues were you referring to if you weren't referencing the overheating issues? Has there been a secondary reliability issue regarding video identified with the cameras?

Jesse Evans wrote:
Yes, you hit the nail on the head. If true, the theory would be that people would primarily not care, and those that did care would upgrade to their cinema line.

And I think that would actually remain true were it not for the launch of the A7s III.

I think all in all, the EOS R5 is a very good camera, and it has also been intentionally prevented from being as useful of a tool as it should be in order to provide an artificial upgrade path for the future.


Canon has not been shy in withholding features in the past in executing their segmentation strategy. They went so far to remove 24p support from previous cameras, which was ridiculous, before the market forced them to put it back in. Are we speculating the main lesson Canon learned from that experience was to be more sophisticated about how they go about crippling their cameras, to the point of having to issue revised press releases detailing specific thermal conditions and run times to help execute the ruse?



Aug 11, 2020 at 05:37 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · R5 artificial time limit


There has to be market segmentation in their gear, no different than any other type of product on the marketplace. Cars are the biggest example of this, they may share the same engines, but will be controlled by different fuel/timing maps by the factory so that the lower cost one doesn't go as fast as the higher priced one.

Why all the hoopla over the concept that Canon would take a lower cost body and remove features from it in the firmware to make it appear less of a camera than a higher model? Canon has been doing that for years too, just like everyone else.

At least now with the R6 and R5, Canon put the same AF system and capabilities in both, but then separated the two by quite a bit of hardware and then also with reduced video capability and other settings/features Both are quite good to the point people don't know specifically which one to get and it may come down to simply budget.



Aug 11, 2020 at 05:40 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · R5 artificial time limit


snapsy wrote:
Canon has not been shy in withholding features in the past in executing their segmentation strategy. They went so far to remove 24p support from previous cameras, which was ridiculous, before the market forced them to put it back in. Are we speculating the main lesson Canon learned from that experience was to be more sophisticated about how they go about crippling their cameras, to the point of having to issue revised press releases detailing specific thermal conditions and run times to help execute the ruse?


They didn't release a revised press release. They released a media alert listing the overheating since people weren't able to read the details in the manual. The details of the overheating were never hidden.

And yes, the speculation would be that Canon just could not allow themselves to give people everything they asked for, as they have done in the past. Only this time, they could sell a camera that had every single best spec you could imagine. Even the overheating is not that bad. Being able to record 20 minutes of 8k video is incredible.

Only that isn't the whole story. There are ways to trick the camera in to bypassing the overheat timer. The camera cannot be cooled down more rapidly after overheating regardless of what attempts are made to do so.

Now, it is possible we may find some alternative evidence in the future that vindicates Canon and shows all of this debate was pointless, but right now, with all of the evidence at hand, the most obvious explanation is that they have at minimum, built in a software timer to prevent the recording of HQ or HFR video after overheating. The rest I agree is open to speculation.



Aug 11, 2020 at 06:05 PM
snapsy
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · R5 artificial time limit


Jesse Evans wrote:
They didn't release a revised press release. They released a media alert listing the overheating since people weren't able to read the details in the manual. The details of the overheating were never hidden.

And yes, the speculation would be that Canon just could not allow themselves to give people everything they asked for, as they have done in the past. Only this time, they could sell a camera that had every single best spec you could imagine. Even the overheating is not that bad. Being able to record 20 minutes of 8k video is incredible.

Only that isn't the whole
...Show more

Bad choice of words on my part - I meant a follow-up press release, with the original being the official announcement of the specs, which left out the recording limits. I haven't seen any documented way to trick the camera to bypass the presumed cripple timer - the cardless, HDMI-only case bypasses DIGIC compression entirely, which can plausibly be the reason the recording limits are longer in that scenario (lots of data movement and computation even for ALL-I not to mention h.264/h.265). The cardless scenario also argues against the intentional crippling argument since many professional videographers use external monitors/recorders anyway. Seems improbable Canon would forget that scenario if they meant to intentionally cripple the camera against professional use.

Regarding tricking the camera and helping prove/disprove the timer theory I proposed an experiment to Andrew at EOSHD. I posted about it on dpreview as well here.



Aug 11, 2020 at 06:15 PM
Ziffl3
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · R5 artificial time limit


Jesse Evans wrote:
I didn't say that it was evidence that Canon intentionally crippled the R5. All of the evidence that Canon has artificially limited the R5 is based on testing and teardowns of the R5.

The question was asked whether another camera with 45+MP shoots 4k60. The answer is no, because there is no 45+MP that shoots oversampled full frame 4k60, including the R5, which does not.

For 45+MP full frame cameras shooting 4k60, you have the S1R, and the SL2.


just adding .... the blackmagic pocket cinema camera 6K is a super 35 sensor. ( 6144 x 3456) 6K @ 60FPS
it is canon EF mount camera.
it has active cooling.
that would be the closest....





Aug 11, 2020 at 06:18 PM
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