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Archive 2020 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm

  
 
galenapass
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


This post may or may not be of interest (cross posted in m43 and Sony forums). I am comparing the EM1x +300mm/1.4x TC to the Sony A6400 + 200-600. It all depends on (a) if you do any bird photograph (b) you are thinking of switching (from m43) (c) you may be interested in adding to your existing m43 equipment. I fall into categories (a) and (c). I am primarily shooting birds and wildlife right now and I am going to add some Sony equipment to the mix. Maybe someday I will switch, who knows. But for now I am happy to supplement with some Sony equipment for BIF, and perhaps Olympus will release some EM1x FW that will improve AF-C. The following observations were based off a 2 week period where I had a rented Sony 200-600 that I used with a purchased A6400. As always, everyone has different needs and concerns but here are a few personal thoughts that some might find useful:

(1) First and foremost, as has been stated here many times by others, the ergonomics of the A6400 are really bad. And by really bad I mean it might be more comfortable to hold onto a chunk of broken glass then the A6400. However, not all was lost. A trip to Amazon online yielded a grip which when added to the camera made it very workable for me. See photo below of camera plus grip. Not bad, I had room for my pinky whereas before it just sort of hung off in space. I would give this setup a B- for ergonomics, without the grip theA6400 gets an F, as far as I am concerned. Ergos for the EM1x are Canon 1D like, in other words really good and especially with long lenses. Ergos for EM1x I give and A+.

(2) Lens foot ergonomics. I shoot handheld most of the time. I always carry my cameras by the lens foot and I often hold the lens foot - supporting most of the weight there with the camera to my face. In many ways lens foot ergonomics are more important to me than the camera ergonomics. I give the Sony lens foot an A- and I give the Oly 300 a C. I need to add a longer plate to the Oly 300mm. The lens foot is just too short to hold and have a sure grip on the camera/lens combo. I have yet to find an aftermarket solution for the Oly lens foot and I don’t like adding a plate to the foot because inevitably that loosens up.

(3) Camera lens balance: Sony gets a C and the Oly setup gets an A. The Sony setup feels front heavy.

(4) The Sony 200-600 lens. I give this lens a solid A. It is heavier than some options in the m43 world but when combined with the A6400 I get 24 MP with a 900mm FOV. I don’t like to make too much out of internet weight arguments. Either the lens + camera are light enough to carry around for 3 to 4 hours comfortably, or it is not. For me it was fine so I don’t really care if there are lighter m43 options that someone wants to make a paper argument about. Functionally a lighter setup does nothing for me. I shot for years with a Canon 500L handheld so most things seem like a huge improvement over that. As I get older this may change.
I give the Olympus 300mm an A+ and the 300mm+1.4x TC an A. Sharpness clearly takes a hit with the TC but not so much that it is an issue.

(5) AF-C: I have to give the Sony setup an A. AF-C on the A6400 is really, really good. If you want to set up this camera go to YT and watch Mark Smith’s A9 setup, then adapt those settings to the A6400. The A6400 camera is a mini A9. At first I had it all messed up in terms of which buttons do what, but my advice is to forget about back button focus. For my hand there is not enough real estate on the back to set up a button for focus. Instead, set up the switch on the back for either static shots or BIF, then use the front shutter button for focus and tripping the shutter. That should handle 90% of your shots. I give the EM1x a B for AF-C. I find just too many out of focus shots in comparison to the A6400.

(6) Value…Sony gets an A+. The lens new is $2000 and the camera is $900 new. I got my A6400 copy off KEH for about $750. I like good value because when I travel I don’t like to have expensive gear. ~8 years ago, some of my gear was “confiscated” by the police in Ecuador. We were traveling in the Amazon basin, so miles away from civilization. Not much that I could do. At that time I was using a 1DMIII and a 400mm DO plus TC. That was quite the replacement cost. I like to limit the $$ in gear for these types of trips. In contrast my EM1x is going for about 2K now and the 300mm pro is still at about $2800. For value I give the EM1x and 300mm a B-.

(7) Image IQ. Here is where it gets tricky. For me image IQ has a lot of factors. For example, how sharp is the image out of the camera, how easy are the files managed in post, how many pixels per duck do I have? I am sure most of you could add a few more items to this list. Basically the final IQ for me is a compilation of #4 above plus what I can do in post. Below I have a shot of a dove that was taken by either the A6400/200-600 or by the EM1x +300/1.4xTC. Both handheld, taken seconds apart. There is very little difference in the details, what I see is more pixels from the A6400 and a FOV that gets me slightly closer. Also, in post I find the Sony files to be better. So I am going to give the Sony an A-, and the Oly a B+.

Overall impressions, the Sony and Oly kits are neck and neck on image IQ and one is going to excel in some situations vs the other. I find the Oly setup to be more nimble, I am more confident about Oly weather sealing and in low light situations the Oly IBIS/IS combo trounces the Sony kit for slow moving subjects. Overall quality in the hand is higher for the Oly gear, but as a value proposition I think Sony wins on this one. AF-C…Sony all the way but that could change with the rumored bird tracking on the EM1x. We will see. Future improvement and flexibility….Sony for sure. I can go out and buy an A9 or A7rIV and enjoy better ergos (vs. A6400), better sensor output and more MP. It is there if I need it. For Oly and Panasonic we are stuck with the same old sensor tech. I intend to buy a 200-600mm lens next. I will not be selling my Oly gear, but I also will not be buying anything new from Olympus either.





Adult watching juvenile antics above EM1x 300mm pro plus 1.4x TC, f5.6 ,1/125 s ISO=640






Juvenile testing wings EM1x 300mm pro plus 1.4x TC, f5.6 ,1/2000 s ISO=640






Juvenile testing wings EM1x 300mm pro plus 1.4x TC, f5.6 ,1/320 s ISO=320






Tired adult EM1x 300mm pro plus 1.4x TC, f5.6 ,1/50 s ISO=320






Adult EM1x 300mm pro plus 1.4x TC, f5.6 ,1/1600 s ISO=800






Juveniles Sony 6400 200-600G f6.3, 1/1000, ISO 320






Juveniles Sony 6400 200-600G f6.3, 1/1000, ISO 320






Adult flyby EM1x 300mm pro plus 1.4x TC, f5.6 ,1/1000 s ISO=640






Juvenile Sony 6400 200-600G f6.3, 1/1000, ISO 800






Juveniles Sony 6400 200-600G f6.3, 1/800, ISO 640







Sony crop 100+%







Oly crop 100 + %



Edited on Jul 18, 2020 at 11:04 PM · View previous versions



Jul 18, 2020 at 01:36 PM
galenapass
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


A6400 grip...







Jul 18, 2020 at 01:41 PM
galenapass
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


For Sony shooters I can already hear the comment "why didn't you rent an A9 and TC". Well that might be my next step.


Jul 18, 2020 at 01:48 PM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


Mike, thank you for the comparison.

Now, let me start by suggesting that you should rent an A9 II then . The TC is optional though.

I could see a slight either misfocus on the Sony crop of the dove or a slight movement blur. Besides that one, the images taken with both are similar to each other. I know our friend, Bobby, hesitates to take BIF images. He told us that the Olympus AF is not that good for fast flying or moving targets. I believe he even used the term "it sucks" at one occasion. I realize that he is using an older Oly camera though.

So, based on your comparison here, what is your plan of moving forward since I understood that Olympus has been acquired by an outfit that is known/reported to be a "chop shop" for lack of a better term I can think of at this moment? I don't mean any offense here...



Jul 18, 2020 at 02:18 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


Interesting to hear your "thinking out loud" thoughts on things. I much rather hear that than the "this is better than that, and you're wrong" kinda stuff.

Looking at the crops, I see some moire' in the Sony crop. We don't see quite that same area in the Oly crop (lower left corner) ... does it have similar color artifacts as the Sony?

Contrast looks lower in the Oly (TC by nature), so maybe a slight adjustment in pp to offset the contrast reduction of TC could be possible. Noise in the sky is more noticeable in the Oly, but not excessively objectionable (and likely some PP could help there, also).

Overall images, the Oly 300 + TC looks just a kiss softer (again, wondering if a PP adjustment is warranted for when using the TC).

Thanks ... and while I can only go by the images (not the experience / balance, etc.), the grade of A- vs. B+ seems about right from these. Still wondering if a different pp could bring that contrast reducing TC up closer to the A- or A level.




Jul 18, 2020 at 02:22 PM
galenapass
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


AGeoJO wrote:
Mike, thank you for the comparison.

Now, let me start by suggesting that you should rent an A9 II then . The TC is optional though.

I could see a slight either misfocus on the Sony crop of the dove or a slight movement blur. Besides that one, the images taken with both are similar to each other. I know our friend, Bobby, hesitates to take BIF images. He told us that the Olympus AF is not that good for fast flying or moving targets. I believe he even used the term "it sucks" at one occasion. I realize that
...Show more

No offense taken. I like to take photos and the gear I use is just a means to get there. My plan is to add Sony equipment slowly. Olympus claims to have bird tracking coming this fall to the EM1x. But it was only a short few months ago when the company and Olympus ambassadors were telling us that there were no plans to sell the company. So I believe nothing that I hear from them these days.
You are correct, the images from both cameras set up are basically identical. As for Olympus BIF, I would say that the EM1x is decent, just not great like the Sony A9. Let's say that in a certain sequence the A9 get 90% of the shot in focus. Olympus might do about 60 to 70%. That is not terrible if you have 20 or so shots to choose from. But...it is not easy to set up the EM1x optimally for BIF. I have been messing around with the settings for months.



Jul 18, 2020 at 02:30 PM
galenapass
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


RustyBug wrote:
Interesting to hear your "thinking out loud" thoughts on things. I much rather hear that than the "this is better than that, and you're wrong" kinda stuff.

Looking at the crops, I see some moire' in the Sony crop. We don't see quite that same area in the Oly crop (lower left corner) ... does it have similar color artifacts as the Sony?

Contrast looks lower in the Oly (TC by nature), so maybe a slight adjustment in pp to offset the contrast reduction of TC could be possible. Noise in the sky is more noticeable in the Oly, but not excessively
...Show more

I think PP could fix that for sure....or a few adjustments in Topaz. I have a lot more images and sitting here without the issues involved in size reduction for FM, it looks like the Oly files are a tad sharper, but that Sony files sharpen up well so there is no difference really. But yes, I noticed that the Sony output was more "contrasty" which may be a function of the raw file demosaicing as well as the TC.



Jul 18, 2020 at 02:36 PM
bobbytan
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


Hey Mike, I just want to give you my 2 cents on the 300 PRO tripod foot. Yes, the tripod foot is a bit short but ....

(a) It's an Arca-style (dove-tail) foot which means that you don't have to mount it to an Arca plate when you use a tripod. I use the tripod for greater stability - especially when shooting with the TC or when shooting in very low light and you need a reasonably fast shutter speed like 1/1000s. Also, I like to rest the camera on the tripod in-between shoots. You would know that with wildlife/nature and landscape photography, you could be waiting and shooting from the same spot literally for hours.

(b) The "small" tripod foot balances perfectly on my Jobu Jr gimbal head i.e. I don't need a supplementary longer foot - even when I have the MC-14 or MC-20 attached. You can have perfect balance or CG on the tripod with the small foot.

(c) When shooting hand-held, you can always rotate the foot upwards, so the lens sit on your palm instead of the tripod foot. And if you know that you will not be needing or using a tripod at all, leave the tripod foot at home and you will save some weight as well.

So for me personally, I would rate the Olympus 300 PRO tripod foot an A.

BTW check out the animal and bird head-and-eye AF of the Canon R5 (and R6). It works pretty well even in very low light:

https://youtu.be/sx8Divtkhe4

Yes, Joshua ... I did tell you that the E-M1 II sucks for BIF. The E-M1X may be a little better with subject-recognition AF ... but it's still nowhere compared to the Sony A6400 or A9 ... or Canon R5/R6 And that's why I am moving back to Canon and have pre-ordered the R5 and 100-500L. But the E-M1 II is not totally useless for BIF either. I took this shot with the MC-14 i.e. at 840mm.

Cheers,
Bobby







Jul 18, 2020 at 06:50 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


Sorry, don't know what is going on with those hawk shots, but all of them look soft to me.

My Mk III with 300 f4 and both TC's give me sharper images:












Jul 18, 2020 at 08:00 PM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


bobbytan wrote:
Yes, Joshua ... I did tell you that the E-M1 II sucks for BIF. The E-M1X may be a little better with subject-recognition AF ... but it's still nowhere compared to the Sony A6400 or A9 ... or Canon R5/R6 And that's why I am moving back to Canon and have pre-ordered the R5 and 100-500L. But the E-M1 II is not totally useless for BIF either. I took this shot with the MC-14 i.e. at 840mm.

Cheers,
Bobby


Bobby, I know you are excited about the Canon R5. But before jumping with both feet, I would at least wait until there are some hands-on reviews from real users and not Canon ambassadors. It is the ambassador’s job to make us believe that the R5 is the best thing since sliced bread. I hope for you that it fully lives up to the pre-release hype. I am curious myself how well it performs in the hands of NON-ambassadors. Time will tell.



Jul 18, 2020 at 09:37 PM
birdied
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


galenapass wrote:
For Sony shooters I can already hear the comment "why didn't you rent an A9 and TC". Well that might be my next step.


Having shot with the A6400 and the EM1Mk2, pretty much agree with your thoughts.
I just started shooting with the A9 and my only comment is - Why did I wait so long !!!

Birdie



Jul 18, 2020 at 10:04 PM
galenapass
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


birdied wrote:
Having shot with the A6400 and the EM1Mk2, pretty much agree with your thoughts.
I just started shooting with the A9 and my only comment is - Why did I wait so long !!!

Birdie


You are not making this easier!



Jul 18, 2020 at 10:48 PM
galenapass
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


Imagemaster wrote:
Sorry, don't know what is going on with those hawk shots, but all of them look soft to me.

My Mk III with 300 f4 and both TC's give me sharper images:


I agree. Not sure what happened there. I did not change my workflow.



Jul 18, 2020 at 10:52 PM
bobbytan
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


I was an early adopter with the Canon 5D Mk II and I will be an early adopter again with the revolutionary R5. I like the fact that the R5 + 100-500L is a very light and compact kit.

Hey ... in terms of IQ and AF the R5 cannot be worse than the E-M1 II or E-M1X for that matter. And it doesn’t matter to me if the AF is still not as a good as the A9 or A9 II as Sony is not an option for me. I will sink or swim with Canon.

AGeoJO wrote:
Bobby, I know you are excited about the Canon R5. But before jumping with both feet, I would at least wait until there are some hands-on reviews from real users and not Canon ambassadors. It is the ambassador’s job to make us believe that the R5 is the best thing since sliced bread. I hope for you that it fully lives up to the pre-release hype. I am curious myself how well it performs in the hands of NON-ambassadors. Time will tell.


Edited on Jul 19, 2020 at 12:31 AM · View previous versions



Jul 18, 2020 at 10:52 PM
bobbytan
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


Go back to Canon, Mike! You won’t regret it.


Jul 18, 2020 at 10:57 PM
somersettr
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


I switched from Olympus E-M1 MkIII + 300mm + MC-14 to Sony A9 II + 200-600mm + SEL14 for birding for most of the reasons that you give. My main gripe with Olympus C-AF is its consistency. Some shots sharp, some not.

In terms of sharpness, I find the two lenses indistinguishable. Which is pretty good for a mid-range zoom. My biggest fear in swithcing systems was that the lens would be soft or have CA but it's fine. However, on the A9, the Sony gathers about 60% more light and that does make a difference in the amount of noise on the undersides of a bird's wing.

The A9II also gives me amazing AF-C, no viewfinder blackout and no rolling shutter artifacts.

Re. your nimble comment, I do find the Sony system, which is 50% heavier than the Olympus, harder to physically move to track a fast-flying bird. I haven't concluded yet though whether this affects if I get the shot. I have certainly got shots with the Sony kit that I have never got with Olympus (and I have used E-M1, E-M1 II and E-M1 III all from launch). That is mostly down to the amazing AF-C.

I still use the E-M1 III and 300mm f/4 for close-up subjects such as flowers and insects. The 2.4m minimum focus of the Sony 200-600 combined with the much weaker IS makes the Olympus a much better choice for that kind of subject.



Jul 19, 2020 at 04:03 AM
nandadevieast
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


Sony should make a 300 F4.
300 PF will be even better.

Edited on Sep 19, 2021 at 12:03 PM · View previous versions



Jul 19, 2020 at 04:33 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


Thanks for the detailed write-up.

Now....you should get an A9 and 1.4TC ....as Birdie alludes to above....the A6400 is nowhere close to a mini-A9 when it comes to AF....the A9 is on another level....many levels above. And of course the blackout free, always silent, no distortion (cough, cough...R5...cough, cough) is unmatched anywhere in the camera industry despite this being 2017 tech.



Jul 19, 2020 at 06:51 AM
k-h.a.w
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


Imagemaster wrote:
Sorry, don't know what is going on with those hawk shots, but all of them look soft to me.

My Mk III with 300 f4 and both TC's give me sharper images:



Thanks Tony.
No matter which system you use, you produce stunning, tack sharp images.
Congratulations!

Question:

How does the E-M1 III compare to the E-M1 II in your hands?
Also, if you have used the Sony A9, how does that compare?

Thanks again, K-H.





Jul 19, 2020 at 07:32 AM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · EM1x + 300mmpro/1.4xTC vs. Sony A6400 + 200-600mm


k-h.a.w wrote:
Thanks Tony.
No matter which system you use, you produce stunning, tack sharp images.
Congratulations!

Question:

How does the E-M1 III compare to the E-M1 II in your hands?
Also, if you have used the Sony A9, how does that compare?

Thanks again, K-H.


Thanks. About the only difference where I find the III better is the EVF is a lot better.

For tracking action, the A9 leaves Oly in the dust.

The advantages of the Oly are size, weight, Pro Capture, and the in-camera bracketing options.



Jul 19, 2020 at 10:33 AM
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