Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site

New Feature: SMS Notification alert

New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

2 3 end

Archive 2020 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

John Power
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

Right now the 60-600-1200 range pretty much belongs to the financially affluent crowd or those who are willing to survive on beans and rice to be able to afford one. These behemoths are huge and heavy. Imagine a lens that will fit in your pocket but give you 600mm (or more).

Will our geniuses at Canon (or any other lens manufacturer for that matter) ever get us there? If not, why not?

Whoever thought a man would walk on the moon right?

Jan 26, 2020 at 08:48 AM

EB-1
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

EBH

Jan 26, 2020 at 09:05 AM

RottenTheCat
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

"You can't just mix matter and anti-matter, it can'na be done!" - Montgomery Scott

On further thought, making the big whites smaller, lighter, handier, could be like putting a two stroke engine in your pickup truck. Smaller, lighter... but you still got a pick'm up.

The industry may move to DO, may even move to more "organic glass" (plastic) elements. Move to more magnesium, and plastic. Find all sorts of ways to lighten the load, but the laws of optics are going to prevail at the end of all the hoopla.

And consumers vote with their hard earned $$$. Don't expect price decreases, so if the perceived quality isn't there, it won't become a product.

Jan 26, 2020 at 09:06 AM

deepbluejh
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

Its pretty easy to "shrink the lens" if you're also willing to "shrink the sensor".

Jan 26, 2020 at 09:13 AM

qc_mountain
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

They will eventually shrink it up to a certain point but for now Canon is in RF and DO technology. We wont see it anytime soon. Any big improvements will be a slow evolution . Maybe in few hundreds years they will make it big as the Canon PowerShot G7 X with a 800mm magnification at Full Frame DSLR quality and performance.

Francois.

Jan 26, 2020 at 10:31 AM

RottenTheCat
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

qc_mountain wrote:
Maybe in few hundreds years they will make it big as the Canon PowerShot G7 X with a 800mm magnification at Full Frame DSLR quality and performance.

I've got to get that on pre-order right away

Jan 26, 2020 at 10:38 AM

dmcphoto
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

John Power wrote:
Right now the 60-600-1200 range pretty much belongs to the financially affluent crowd or those who are willing to survive on beans and rice to be able to afford one. These behemoths are huge and heavy. Imagine a lens that will fit in your pocket but give you 600mm (or more).

Will our geniuses at Canon (or any other lens manufacturer for that matter) ever get us there? If not, why not?

Whoever thought a man would walk on the moon right?

Focal length is the distance between the optical center of a lens and the focal plane (where the camera's sensor is located) when the lens is focused at infinity. In diffractive lenses the lens has fewer elements, they are thinner and lighter, and don't extend as far in either direction from the optical center of the lens, but it's still 600mm from the optical center to the focal plane, so you'll never put one in your pocket. There's no magical way to make 600mm = 20mm, for instance.

You can get the equivalent magnification of a 600mm lens on a "full frame" (24mmx36mm) image sensor by using a 20mm lens on a much smaller sensor, but then it's a 20mm lens, not a 600mm lens.

That's how "crop frame" cameras appear to get more than 600mm out of a 600mm lens, but they don't really. They're just using a smaller part of the image that's projected on the image sensor (i.e.; cropping it). If you take the same photo with the same lens on a full frame camera with the same pixel density and crop it to the same pixel dimensions as the crop frame camera, you'll get an identical result.

Jan 26, 2020 at 10:44 AM

Guest

Guest

p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

Baby, let's you and me break some laws of physics tonight!

Jan 26, 2020 at 11:02 AM

RottenTheCat
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

This thread has me remembering the Canon 50mm .095 I once had, which was modified to Leica M by Marty Forscher. Ya can't get something for nuthin'. I loved that lens! I hated that lens! It was best at .095, where you didn't expect much but dreamy softness. If you wanted anything close to sharp, not even by f/5.6 did crispin' up. For outdoor, intimate concerts (one artist only, usually) it did ok, as the dreamy softness added glow to the harsh stage lighting, and the M3 worked great with it... except it blocked half the viewfinder.

Jan 26, 2020 at 11:10 AM

Tom_W
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

I think one of the areas Canon is lacking (Nikon has the 200-500) is in the lightweight, relatively inexpensive super tele zoom. Sigma has the 150-600 in 2 flavors. Ditto Tamron in one flavor. But nothing from Canon. Yes, they have the 100-400 II, and it is excellent. But if you want 600, then you suddenly have an f/8 lens which, on a crop body, gives you a limited ISO range.

I had the Sigma 150-600 on my 5D4, shooting a pair of Red-headed woodpeckers feeding their young in a tree in the woods. ISO 12,800, and not the ideal shutter speed either, all limited by f/6.3. I wasn't doing really well already, and losing 2/3 of a stop more aperture would have made it worse. 600 f/4 would have been great, but that's quite the price jump, as well as losing the practicality of the zoom.

Anyway, that's my Sunday morning screed. Just staring the income vs. lens issue and taking it at face value.

Jan 26, 2020 at 11:27 AM

NonDecaf
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

dmcphoto wrote:
Focal length is the distance between the optical center of a lens and the focal plane (where the camera's sensor is located) when the lens is focused at infinity. In diffractive lenses the lens has fewer elements, they are thinner and lighter, and don't extend as far in either direction from the optical center of the lens, but it's still 600mm from the optical center to the focal plane, so you'll never put one in your pocket. There's no magical way to make 600mm = 20mm, for instance.

You can get the equivalent magnification of a 600mm lens on a...Show more →

Isn't that just theoretical though? AFAIK The focal length as a distance is defined as such only for a single-element optical design. No modern 600mm lens (telephoto lens design) is 60cm long right? You can have positive and negative magnification elements inserted with varying degrees of magnification in the optical design to match the final 600mm FOV. Conversely there are multiple wide angle lenses (reverse telephoto design) which are larger than their FL.

Jan 26, 2020 at 11:56 AM

alundeb
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

When you mount a 2X teleconverter on a 300 mm lens, the combination of the lens and teleconverter becomes a true 600 mm lens. This proves that it is possible to design telephoto lenses that are much shorter than what is common.

Then there is not only the problem of the focal length, but that a pocket size 600 mm lens would have to be very slow, like F/11-f/16. This is the where the laws of physics become much harder on us.

Personally I would be interested in smaller lenses with longer focal lengths, but for now live with the compromises of using teleconverters or smaller sensors. The Nikon 1 70-300 mm is hard to beat for reach/pocket ratio and is one of my favorites.

Jan 26, 2020 at 12:20 PM

koenkooi
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

Jan 26, 2020 at 01:52 PM

John Power
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

To the nasayers who embrace the "law of physics won't allow it" position, if you would have told someone 200 years ago that one day there would be what will be called an airplane and it will fly in the air over the Atlantic ocean to England the response would be that it would never happen because of the laws of gravity....

Jan 26, 2020 at 04:13 PM

2ndviolinman
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

Small, light, and priced within reach of anyone who can afford a camera to put it on. Maybe not pocketable, but otherwise checks all the boxes you mentioned, and available now.

How bad do you want it?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1277295-REG/opteka_opt500m_500mm_f_8_mirror_lens.html

Jan 26, 2020 at 04:37 PM

dmcphoto
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

NonDecaf wrote:
Isn't that just theoretical though? AFAIK The focal length as a distance is defined as such only for a single-element optical design. No modern 600mm lens (telephoto lens design) is 60cm long right? You can have positive and negative magnification elements inserted with varying degrees of magnification in the optical design to match the final 600mm FOV. Conversely there are multiple wide angle lenses (reverse telephoto design) which are larger than their FL.

You're right. Thick lenses have a front focal length, a rear focal length, and an effective focal length (which is what we care about). Telephoto lenses have their optical center in front of the front lens element, making their physical length shorter than their effective focal length.

Jan 26, 2020 at 05:27 PM

Hillrg`
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

You don't have to get hung up on the laws of physics. How about combining capturing multiple wavelength photons for detail and use on-board AI to build an image that simulates what the subject probably looks like. Sounds fantastic now, but ... ;*)

Jan 26, 2020 at 05:44 PM

tntcorp
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

200 years ago, lift and drag were not understood to create an airfoil. similarly, current technology does not allow a 600mm lens to be 20mm short. the existing laws of optics still prevailed.

if anything occurred, it will not be in your lifetime.. so don't fret about it unless you are in the research field of optics.

just continue chasing the light..

John Power wrote:
To the nasayers who embrace the "law of physics won't allow it" position, if you would have told someone 200 years ago that one day there would be what will be called an airplane and it will fly in the air over the Atlantic ocean to England the response would be that it would never happen because of the laws of gravity....

Jan 26, 2020 at 06:06 PM

EB-1
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

Hillrg` wrote:
You don't have to get hung up on the laws of physics. How about combining capturing multiple wavelength photons for detail and use on-board AI to build an image that simulates what the subject probably looks like. Sounds fantastic now, but ... ;*)

Not at all. I would say that in the next decade we will have 600 mm equivalent in cell phones with some heavy computations. There will be even fewer users of actual 600/4 lenses, so they will cost more than today.

EBH

Jan 26, 2020 at 06:49 PM

dclark
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

John Power wrote:
To the nasayers who embrace the "law of physics won't allow it" position, if you would have told someone 200 years ago that one day there would be what will be called an airplane and it will fly in the air over the Atlantic ocean to England the response would be that it would never happen because of the laws of gravity....

Bernoulli's Law - Published in 1738. Basis for the airfoil that give airplane wings lift.

Regardless, I am sure that 200 years ago the internet was full of people proclaiming that flight was impossible.

BTW, the laws of physics say your lens can be as small and light as you like, as long as you don't need much image information.

Dave

Jan 26, 2020 at 09:46 PM

1 2 3 end
FM Forums \| Canon Forum \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 end

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.