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Archive 2020 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?

  
 
JohnSil
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


John Power wrote:
Right now the 60-600-1200 range pretty much belongs to the financially affluent crowd or those who are willing to survive on beans and rice to be able to afford one. These behemoths are huge and heavy. Imagine a lens that will fit in your pocket but give you 600mm (or more).

Will our geniuses at Canon (or any other lens manufacturer for that matter) ever get us there? If not, why not?

Whoever thought a man would walk on the moon right?


I think the iPhone has one of those and it fits in your pocket?!?!
John



Jan 27, 2020 at 01:44 AM
alundeb
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


John Power wrote:
To the nasayers who embrace the "law of physics won't allow it" position, if you would have told someone 200 years ago that one day there would be what will be called an airplane and it will fly in the air over the Atlantic ocean to England the response would be that it would never happen because of the laws of gravity....


Well, people have been observing birds fly since before we as a species could walk. I think we also understood 200 years ago that birds are not excempt gravity.

As long as you say "lens", I am going to say "no". But if you say "image capturing technology", yes. It is possible to imagine a lens array using the screen area of a foldable phone to capture an image equivalent to using a 600 mm f/4 lens. It is also possible to imagine that such a device will be able to provide more image information than today's best 35 mm image sensors can capture, without conflicting the laws of physics.

It is a bit self-contradictory to insist on keeping one base part of the equiation ("lens" and implicitly a 35 mm sensor), and then say that people who don't want to change the equations are naysayers.



Jan 27, 2020 at 02:54 AM
technic
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


alundeb wrote:
Well, people have been observing birds fly since before we as a species could walk. I think we also understood 200 years ago that birds are not excempt gravity.

As long as you say "lens", I am going to say "no". But if you say "image capturing technology", yes. It is possible to imagine a lens array using the screen area of a foldable phone to capture an image equivalent to using a 600 mm f/4 lens. It is also possible to imagine that such a device will be able to provide more image information than today's best 35 mm image
...Show more

Leonardo da Vinci studied birds and imagined flight technology over 500 years ago. Even though he didn't yet understand the details of gravity and airflow; he got pretty far and might have succeeded if the technology of his time (materials strength/weight etc.) had been better.

Agree that there are solutions for making something small that is in SOME ways equivalent to a 4/600mm. Computational imaging is probably going to come first, metamaterials might enable real lenses that are MUCH shorter and thinner than traditional primes and probably more suitable for making nice images.

That being said, it is sad that Canon decided to keep their tele primes big and heavy by ignoring the possibility of making more modest spec but still excellent quality primes like the Nikon PF 4/300 and PF 5.6/500 lenses. For some applications the size and weight loss of such lenses is a game changer. Instead Canon keeps producing new generations of the same bright/big/heavy primes that are unaffordable to most of us and offer very little real improvement, because even the old ones are already optically great. It's nice that they can slightly reduce the weight in the next generation of a lens, but allowing a bit more modest spec would make a FAR bigger difference. But their last relatively modest spec tele primes are now 25 years old

This is the main reason I have given up on Canon delivering the gear I want. And I see the same with bodies, they seem to have decided that wildlife/nature "action" photography is of no interest to them, their major body for this subject(7D2) is now over five years old and nothing credible in the pipeline. Canon has the gear for you if you like FF camera and big bright primes (even bigger because there is no FF camera with high speed and high pixel density) that mostly live on a tripod. Yes, I guess we might get an R version of the M6 II including a decent build-in EVF, but I don't think it will be a real action camera yet - just like the M6 II doesn't cut it even though it might work well in some specific situations.



Jan 27, 2020 at 04:14 AM
amacal1
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?




dclark wrote:
Bernoulli's Law - Published in 1738. Basis for the airfoil that give airplane wings lift.

Regardless, I am sure that 200 years ago the internet was full of people proclaiming that flight was impossible.

BTW, the laws of physics say your lens can be as small and light as you like, as long as you don't need much image information.

Dave


It's slightly more complicated than that. They didn't understand how to apply Bernoulli's law to an open flow problem, such as an airfoil, without significant experimentation and the correct application of certain approximations. Even then, it took longer to turn that information into a practical design. It took even longer to achieve flight! One of the biggest advantages the Wright Brothers had was their significant time spent doing wind tunnel testing which gave them better experimental data than every competitor. Well, that, and they put a lot of thought into controls and were the only group with a practical control scheme (wing warping).



Jan 27, 2020 at 09:42 AM
dclark
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


amacal1 wrote:
It's slightly more complicated than that. They didn't understand how to apply Bernoulli's law to an open flow problem, such as an airfoil, without significant experimentation and the correct application of certain approximations. Even then, it took longer to turn that information into a practical design. It took even longer to achieve flight! One of the biggest advantages the Wright Brothers had was their significant time spent doing wind tunnel testing which gave them better experimental data than every competitor. Well, that, and they put a lot of thought into controls and were the only group with a practical control
...Show more

That is the difference between physics and engineering.
Physics can tell you what is possible or impossible.
Engineers can tell what is easy and what is hard.




Jan 27, 2020 at 10:00 AM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


The term telephoto, from what I understand, initially meant a lens that didn't need as much extension as its FL to reach infinity. Think a 400mm lens on a 4x5 that only had about 300mm/12in, extension, something along those lines anyway. A telephoto allowed the use of a longer lens on your bellows camera.

So shorter isn't particularly new, but yes a 600mm lens has to be long at this point. But you can use an SCT or Mak, basically (in telescope lingo) to have a shorter, smaller lens since the light goes 2x as far (I think?) inside the lens.

But afaik, as has already been mentioned, the definition of a 600/4 is 600mm FL having 150mm minimum front element diameter, for light gathering. AFAIK there's currently no way around that dimension on the front element. They may cone up with it soon, but achromatic doublets are technology from the 1700's or something and still useful. (Looks like Newton said they were impossible.) So it could be hundreds of years, too.



Jan 27, 2020 at 11:59 AM
technic
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


AmbientMike wrote:
But afaik, as has already been mentioned, the definition of a 600/4 is 600mm FL having 150mm minimum front element diameter, for light gathering. AFAIK there's currently no way around that dimension on the front element. They may cone up with it soon, but achromatic doublets are technology from the 1700's or something and still useful. (Looks like Newton said they were impossible.) So it could be hundreds of years, too.


Yes there is a way around the front element dimension and it was already mentioned: you can use a battery of small sensors like on a smartphone and computational imaging to get something that is in some ways similar. Similar to replacing a huge radio-telescope (or optical telescope, nowadays) with an array of smaller and much more affordable ones. The difference is that the small smartphone sensors won't completely cover the same area (wavefront) at the exact same moment, but for normal photography (with no special requirements regarding e.g. low light or fast shutter speed) if might be equivalent.

Metamaterials are also getting close to enable nearly flat lenses that work for visible light. But there may be some limitations that could make it impractical in normal use (just like with computational imaging). This technology is moving very fast though and I would not be surprised if they can get it to work for photography within 10 years. Basic optics technology dates back a few centuries; my hometown played a large part in the invention of the telescope, and there were also important contributions to microscope technology. Technological progress often is slow at first and then accelerates, over the last 1-2 generations far more has happened in optics than in the previous three centuries.



Jan 27, 2020 at 01:14 PM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?



technic wrote:
Yes there is a way around the front element dimension and it was already mentioned: you can use a battery of small sensors like on a smartphone and computational imaging to get something that is in some ways similar. Similar to replacing a huge radio-telescope (or optical telescope, nowadays) with an array of smaller and much more affordable ones. The difference is that the small smartphone sensors won't completely cover the same area (wavefront) at the exact same moment, but for normal photography (with no special requirements regarding e.g. low light or fast shutter speed) if might be equivalent.

Metamaterials are
...Show more

Obviously optics have advanced, but how do you get the same amount of photons hitting the sensor if you have a smaller front element?

And how do you avoid noise if you have less photons?

If you don't have any requirements as far as low light or fast shutter speed, I mean, isn't that the point of a supertele? One thing I can do computationally is turn up the iso to use an f/8 lens instead of f/4. 1/2 the diameter, 1/4 the area front element. And probably thinner. Not sure how much difference there is between that and other computational imaging. At some point you need photons not sure how to get around it.



Jan 27, 2020 at 08:19 PM
technic
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


AmbientMike wrote:
Obviously optics have advanced, but how do you get the same amount of photons hitting the sensor if you have a smaller front element?

And how do you avoid noise if you have less photons?

If you don't have any requirements as far as low light or fast shutter speed, I mean, isn't that the point of a supertele? One thing I can do computationally is turn up the iso to use an f/8 lens instead of f/4. 1/2 the diameter, 1/4 the area front element. And probably thinner. Not sure how much difference there is between that and other computational
...Show more

Yes, the technology isn't the same so it will not ALWAYS be equivalent. But in many cases the trade-off will work, just look how e.g. microscopy and astronomy have been revolutionized with all kinds of "computational imaging" solutions that have e.g. strongly improved resolution or imaging of moving structures inside cells. For photography this is a bit more difficult because its use is far more general (i.e. not focusing just on very small and relatively slow subjects like in microscopy, or almost static objects at infinity like in astronomy).

As to photons and noise, look how some small sensor smartphones are already beating DSLRs for low-light performance by e.g. taking a dozen shots in quick succession with clever PP. If you have a smaller "front element" you have to collect the photons over a longer time period e.g. by using multiple small sensors, moving them around over a certain period of time and computing the total incoming wavefront.

There are a lot of potential workarounds for photographic limiations. A current DSLR or ML camera is a very specific tool that isn't great for computational imaging - it has little intelligent processing capability and so there isn't much room for improvement. If you always work in low light and have fast moving subjects, I guess you are out of luck and there is no easy way around a big lens until metamaterials (e.g. negative refraction index lenses) catches up.



Jan 28, 2020 at 05:05 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


Canon already reduced the weight of the 400/2.8 by 53% from the first EF version to the current EF IS III and 600/4 by 49% even though the newer lenses support additional features such as IS. I think this is a quite remarkable achievement. I think people are really lucky to live in such an age to experience such improvements in how easy to make beautiful images it has become. I think it is good that the camera manufacturers put their efforts in the fast superteles as it is obvious when looking at the results e.g. in nature photography competitions that by far the nicest-looking images are usually taken with these lenses and not the smaller-aperture variants. (Of course it is also true that the average photographer using a 400/2.8 is likely to be more skilled than one who uses an inexpensive telezoom or superzoom compact camera, because one doesn't usually make such a commitment (both financial and discomfort in transporting the gear) based on a moment's whim).

Compensating for low light by taking a series of exposures and averaging them has the problem that the resulting image has discontinuous movement, i.e., it appears a bit like if the subject was moving lit by a flashing light. In a longer exposure you get smooth movement blur. This can of course be processed into something that looks less ghastly by modeling how the movement of the subjects in the frame takes place, their trajectories etc. and then interpolating the image, but then why not just capture a long exposure and get a nicer result. If the subject is to be frozen in time, then the multiple exposure approach runs into difficulties. Let's imagine a set of lanterns in water and capture a series of exposures with the intention of combining them to achieve better signal-to-noise ratio. This only works if the subjects look the same towards the camera from shot to shot. If a lantern rotates during the series of exposures, different exposures cannot be combined unless the software somehow also creates a model of the rotation (for each lantern, of course). This is also the case if you have multiple people in the frame. Now, you can say that this already magically works and so I'm just a luddite. But the reality is that the resulting images are really poor quality. There is no display resolution low enough that the photos wouldn't look bad.

For example

https://www.blog.google/products/pixel/see-light-night-sight/

The top banner is uncomfortable to look at because it is not sharp. The portrait of three people below where they show the original series of shots on the left and the final result on the right, it has the same problem of the banner, no fine detail even at this extremely low display resolution and my brain immediately tells me that there is something wrong with the image. The tones are poor, the light looks unnatural, and there are no finer features on the subjects. The people in the photo look a bit like they were ghosts. I cannot possibly see how this approach could be seen as competing with results obtained by using a large-sensor camera. I can see how from the perspective of someone who never looks at images in larger size than a phone, and who has never used a dedicated camera suitable for this type of photography, but the bar is set really low here. The result can only have the level of detail which is consistent with the similarity between the different photos, if the expression changes, the subject cannot have a sharp mouth area. If the subject turns, there is no way to combine the multiple exposures taken from different angles and retain correct subject detail.

ML and DSLR cameras work just fine for "computational imaging." People have been using algorithms to stitch photos, focus stacking to extend the depth of field, and combining multiple different exposures with layers and masks, and even automatic HDR techniques for 15+ years now. Even the cameras have had algorithms built-in to deal with high-contrast situations (e.g. Nikon's D-lighting). In fact similar technologies exist in minilabs that print from scanned film negatives (20 years ago). What you can't do with a typical ML or DSLR is to combine a sequence of rapidly taken photos to supposedly freeze movement but collect a lot of light at the same time, but the issue with that approach is is that the moving subject is typically not of the same shape from shot to shot, so the averaging results in the loss of detail. What the DSLR or ML can do is freeze the subject in one short exposure and collect enough light for a nice photo that shows the subject in a consistent way, as it was captured within a single short exposure. Combining multiple exposures in camera is something that if the manufacturers wanted, could be implemented in dedicated cameras as well, but may not be worth sacrifices needed in other areas of the camera (fast read time sensor leads to lower dynamic range, thus single captures at low ISO would not have quite the same fidelity).

What the dedicated ILC camera with large sensor can do is produce consistent images that are captured at a specific time with high image quality. There is no computerized fudging to deal with inconsistencies between shots, and if multiple exposures are to be combined, the responsibility of how to resolve the inconsistencies is with the person doing the post-processing, and usually it helps a great deal to have an intelligent human being doing this work, because they can see what looks good and what doesn't, and how the combining of images can be done in such a way that it looks right to the viewer and preserves detail as much as possible. The advantage of the human being is that they know the subject and how it is supposed to look. They also know the artistic objectives. Photography is an art form, you know, and replacing the photographer's vision, creativity and skill with that of a camera phone that sells in the same form to billions other users just doesn't seem like the solution. Why would the photographer want to replace their art with that created by some programmers working in a lab producing code that "guesses" the shape, features and emotional expression of the subject out of multiple images where in each image the subject looks different? I don't get it.

Apple's efforts are not that great either. Looking here

https://www.apple.com/fi/iphone-11-pro/

the ultrawide angle image is obviously soft in the outer 20% of the radius of the image circle, large areas of the image look blurred even though one would not think this is possible considering how pixels the image shown on the web page has. The portrait of the woman in red looks completely artificial the color of the dress and the sky doesn't resemble anything seen in real life. In the night mode the portrait of a woman: the woman could have a been wax sculpture or plastic doll and the viewer wouldn't be able to tell the difference from the image. Again the color is nothing like one would see in person. Replacing a complex background with white? How cute. Again there is nothing here that cannot be implemented by algorithms on a computer afterwards, and this type of thing has been done as long as digital editing existed. They make films nowadays where the actors don't see each other or the scenery. They don't shoot these films on mobile phones.



Jan 28, 2020 at 07:08 AM
technic
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


Obviously one of the reasons we are seeing this technology in smartphones is that (besides far more computing power available) the users are less critical and the small display screens etc. mask much of the PP problems. But it's really early days for these technologies; as I mentioned, in microscopy and astronomy we are seeing HUGE improvements, new frontiers opened, that would never be possible with traditional imaging (even with much larger budgets available). I think in the end the same will be true for some areas of photography, although people may still prefer traditional photography and its limitations (just like some people still like to shoot BW film).

Look how far high end smartphones have come for capturing "tele" images with their tiny lenses, all in just a few years. Yes, these images may be "POS" compared to a FF DSLR with a 5 kg white prime attached, but that isn't something you always have with you. In some cases the quality will be good enough and it keeps improving. I look forward to the day when I can spot/document (and automatically recognize) birds, dragonflies etc. at a distance with just a smartphone; probably a realistic option within 5 years. For photography contest quality pictures or real action photography, it will take much longer (if ever) to get there with much smaller cameras but how often is that needed?

I have seen some very convincing examples for e.g. removing motion blur, camera shake or defocus; or averaging a captured burst with not too much camera/subject movement between images for improving DR or low light noise. But real improvement isn't going to happen until we have FAR more computing power available in-camera, which takes time because of all kinds of other bottlenecks besides the processors themselves (battery, cooling, storage etc.).

I'm not dissing the weight loss in Canon superteles in any way, it's great engineering. But it is really sad that they apply that only to lenses that are big and heavy to begin with due to spec, no effort to make much smaller/lighter lenses which really isn't technically challenging. Look at the results of the 5.6/500PF lens, there are very few great images that would have required a more traditional (much heavier and costlier) 4/500 lens. If Nikon can do it, why not Canon?



Jan 28, 2020 at 09:27 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


It's not driven by technology. It's driven by marketing. Recent trends have produced huge lenses with stellar performance. This too, will pass.


Jan 28, 2020 at 10:17 AM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


jcolwell wrote:
It's not driven by technology. It's driven by marketing. Recent trends have produced huge lenses with stellar performance. This too, will pass.


Basically. The age of the "bigma" is back as Sigma is chasing optical perfection with lenses like the 35/1.2 and Canon seems to be happy to follow suit.

That kind of sucks for the average consumer that doesn't care about eeking out the last drop of optical perfection and just wants good performance for the price.

Canon is putting themselves in a position where the RF version of the same EF lens is 3x as expensive as a clean used EF copy for very little real world gain. This is a conscious decision on Canon's part, as I suspect they are seeing the "average" user head towards APS-C or away from a dedicated camera anyways.



Jan 28, 2020 at 10:29 AM
MintMar
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


alundeb wrote:
When you mount a 2X teleconverter on a 300 mm lens, the combination of the lens and teleconverter becomes a true 600 mm lens. This proves that it is possible to design telephoto lenses that are much shorter than what is common.


The problem is that the 2x teleconverter just takes the middle of the delivered frame and magnifies it twice, sort of like the analog version of the "digital zoom", and I don't think the IQ would be comparable to 600mm native tele. Each optical issue on the 300 would be magnified 2x.




Jan 28, 2020 at 11:23 AM
ericbowles
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


There are several ways of looking at this. It can be done with software in the camera - with tradeoffs.

600mm is 600mm. By definition, a 600mm lens has a front element 600mm from the focal plane. That does not change.

600mm equivalent depends on sensor size and cropping. 400mm on an APS-C sensor has an equivalent image to a 600mm lens on a full frame. Put a 300mm lens on a 4/3 body and it is equivalent to 600mm. But neither of these is truly 600mm - it's just a crop of a shorter focal length. a true 600mm lens on a 4/3 body has an equivalent of a 1200mm image.

Cropping to a smaller size is equivalent to just using a smaller sensor. There is nothing that says you can't have a camera setting that crops to 1/6 the frame - so a 100mm lens is automatically going to present an equivalent image to a 600mm lens.

If you are choosing a smaller sensor or a crop, pixel density becomes a factor. You are losing pixels on two dimensions, so the loss in megapixels is equal to the square of the crop factor. So a 1.5 crop reduces total pixels to 1/2.25 or around 1/2 of the original sensor. That means your 24 megapixel camera with a APS-C crop is now 10-11 megapixels - still plenty but you get the idea.

If you want a 100mm equivalent to 600mm, you need to crop to 1/6 the original sensor, which is 1/36 the pixels - and then upsize it to whatever you want. I can take a 24 megapixel camera, crop to 1/6 and I have a nice 0.667 mp image - around 1000 pixels by 667 pixels. That's perfect for the internet. I could even upsize it in software to a larger file - maybe 8 megapixels - so it sounds good. It will be a little noisy and might be pixelated under magnification, but the technology will work.

Would you accept this kind of trade-off? It can be done in software in the camera. Shoot, process, crop to 1/6, upsize algorithm, and stop with an 8 megapixel image. I've made this kind of processing by pulling a file off 400 kb file from Facebook and producing an 8x10 inch print using Lightroom. (This was done with photographer permission to produce prints for artists to use to paint for a joint exhibit.)

The real question is whether you would be happy with it. For social media it's fine, but your technique better be very good. If you have any blur in your capture, it's magnified. You are cropping to the equivalent of 100%, then increasing the size of remaining pixels by 3.5 times on each dimension to make a 3500 x 2500 pixel final output.



Jan 28, 2020 at 11:27 AM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?




technic wrote:
Yes, the technology isn't the same so it will not ALWAYS be equivalent. But in many cases the trade-off will work, just look how e.g. microscopy and astronomy have been revolutionized with all kinds of "computational imaging" solutions that have e.g. strongly improved resolution or imaging of moving structures inside cells. For photography this is a bit more difficult because its use is far more general (i.e. not focusing just on very small and relatively slow subjects like in microscopy, or almost static objects at infinity like in astronomy).

As to photons and noise, look how some small sensor smartphones are
...Show more

Sure, noise can be removed by using multiple images of the same scene. But I wouldn't say phones are better. I saw software that reduced noise by using several images of the same scene over a decade ago. So one should be able to fire off 5-10+ images using a 1Dx series, for instance, in less than a second, crop a bit and line them up to get them all the same, and get a much better result. Isn't this a big function of deep sky stacker, multiple images to remove noise? Of course, it takes more than a second to get 5-10 astronomy images

A dslr is a much more powerful tool than a phone. Look at the numbers on the larger sensors. Much better DR, and probably high ISO, as well. Hard to get around the larger sensor size of the dslr, and you should be able to do computational stuff on dslr images. People do already. If the phone has a more powerful processor, you should be able to put one in a camera.

Do you have any links to sites talking about the array of smaller sensors? Or search terms? Sounds interesting, but like you said, mostly for static subjects, at this point.



Jan 28, 2020 at 12:29 PM
scalesusa
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


I recall reading inventions which use arrays of many many small lens/sensor arrays which has the end effect of shrinking at least the length of a lens. If they were practical, we would be seeing them already, but this is a example showing that innovations can change what people believe can't be done and without violating the laws of physics.


Jan 28, 2020 at 12:50 PM
boxigen
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


John Power wrote:
To the nasayers who embrace the "law of physics won't allow it" position, if you would have told someone 200 years ago that one day there would be what will be called an airplane and it will fly in the air over the Atlantic ocean to England the response would be that it would never happen because of the laws of gravity....


I'm sure even then birds existed and could, to everyone's amusement, overcome the laws of gravity. And Leonardo DaVinci had flight in mind in 15th century. Photon science is quite well understood, so don't go making up weird parallels.

But maybe creating a curved sensor would allow for a much simpler optics design... I head that idea a while ago.



Jan 28, 2020 at 01:21 PM
technic
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


ericbowles wrote:
There are several ways of looking at this. It can be done with software in the camera - with tradeoffs.

600mm is 600mm. By definition, a 600mm lens has a front element 600mm from the focal plane. That does not change.


This only applies to a single lens element, it is NOT true for any "lens" consisting of multiple elements like most photographic lenses. As others already mentioned, the basic idea of a "tele lens" for cameras is making an optical assembly that is physically shorter (from focal plane to front element) than the focal length. It depends on the technology how much shorter the lens can be made, e.g. DO/PF elements will allow a significantly shorter length than traditional glass elements.
______________

AmbientMike wrote:
Sure, noise can be removed by using multiple images of the same scene. But I wouldn't say phones are better. I saw software that reduced noise by using several images of the same scene over a decade ago. So one should be able to fire off 5-10+ images using a 1Dx series, for instance, in less than a second, crop a bit and line them up to get them all the same, and get a much better result. Isn't this a big function of deep sky stacker, multiple images to remove noise? Of course, it takes more than a second
...Show more

My point is: it isn't all about the size, it is how you use the tool

Yes, theoretically DSLR and ML cameras are superior, but other devices can compensate for this with different technology, just like sometimes a dimmer lens with IS can be superior to a big bright lens without IS. It's too early to tell what the outcome will be but given the WAY faster technical advancements and higher sales numbers in smartphones I doubt we will see much of that technology in large sensor cameras. Much of this is software and development there is a numbers game; large sensor cameras are irrelevant compared to smartphone sales.

---------------------------------------------

boxigen wrote:
I'm sure even then birds existed and could, to everyone's amusement, overcome the laws of gravity. And Leonardo DaVinci had flight in mind in 15th century. Photon science is quite well understood, so don't go making up weird parallels.

But maybe creating a curved sensor would allow for a much simpler optics design... I head that idea a while ago.


There are new developments like metamaterials (negative refraction index lenses) that are poorly understood, especially by the general public. If this technology can ever be fully applied to visible light (currently it generally works outside this wavelength range) it would be a game changer. The "laws of optics" could be circumvented with new insight. The "laws" of science are not absolute; they last until something better comes along.

I already mentioned da Vinci: he got relatively close making human flight possibly, despite a completely wrong understanding of gravity and an incomplete understanding of "aerodynamics". His failure was not caused by wrong science, but by the severe limitations of the technology of those days. I think our current situation with optics is similar.



Jan 29, 2020 at 04:18 AM
takowasa
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Will Canon engineers ever "shrink the lens"?


dclark wrote:
Regardless, I am sure that 200 years ago the internet was full of people proclaiming that flight was impossible.


Um...



Jan 29, 2020 at 04:35 AM
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