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Archive 2020 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

csebasti
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

Back in March last year I posted about issues I was having with my 5D IV autofocus:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1585948/0

After getting lots of good advice, I sent my camera and Canon 24-105 f/4L lens to cannon. A couple weeks and ~$200 later, they returned them saying the body, the sensor out of position and the image was blurred. For the lens they said adjustment of the assembly was incorrect and the image was blurred. Both were electrically and mechanically adjusted.

I got the camera back in late June. I still don't believe the camera is working as it should as I still get a lot of missed focus as I used to. Less significant than before, but still missed. I have examples from July just after getting the camera back all the way to recent shots. Both front and back focus. I have not messed with micro adjust since getting the camera/lens back.

I'm planning to call Canon back, but would like some advise on how to deal with them. I'm afraid they'll just tell me to send it back and pay another $200 (or more) to have them "fix" it again. It has been 6 months since they fixed it after all. I'm hoping maybe some of you have more experience working with Canon Factory Service than I do, and how I should approach this.

Some examples after the camera/lens were serviced. 1st 3 are with the lens they serviced:

Doesn't look too bad small, but zooming it it is clear the focus is on his shoulder, not where the focus point is.

Focus point:

Zoomed in:

Focus point:

Zoomed in, shoe in focus, not where the focus point is:

Significant miss in focus. But, maybe related to low light, and the focus point is right on the edge of his face. But still, the camera shouldn't think it achieved focus if it didn't.

Focus point:

Using a different lens. This is with a Canon 85 f/1.8. Focus is clearly much farther in front of where the focus point is.

Focus point:

Zoomed in:

Jan 18, 2020 at 06:30 PM

BlueBomberTurbo
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

Sounds like you need to do some AF microadjustment. If focus doesn't match the recorded focus point location, you can adjust the amount of front/backfocus the camera uses when it believes it's in focus. Takes a bit of time and patience, and should be done for each lens you own that you feel is acting up.

Jan 18, 2020 at 08:04 PM

csebasti
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

BlueBomberTurbo wrote:
Sounds like you need to do some AF microadjustment. If focus doesn't match the recorded focus point location, you can adjust the amount of front/backfocus the camera uses when it believes it's in focus. Takes a bit of time and patience, and should be done for each lens you own that you feel is acting up.

I did do that for all my lenses before I sent the camera to Canon for repair. I could try it again now, but in the missed focus pictures I have, some are front focus, some are back focus. I guess I'll have to look closer to see if it is at least consistent at a single focal length.

I do have two pictures taken about 10 seconds apart (35mm and 55mm) on my 24-105mm where one is quite a bit back focused, and he next is equally front focused.

Chris

Jan 18, 2020 at 08:17 PM

tk lp
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

It does appear that you are getting front focusing. The picture with the Christmas tree looks like it just missed. It cant hurt to check AFMA.

Jan 18, 2020 at 08:37 PM

RogerZoul
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

Seems to me that in this set of shots, if you believe that the camera actually got focus, that the focus square is over a spot that has something forward and some back, rather than just a mostly flat area with detail. Depending on where the focus sensor actually is, the camera could be just picking the nearest thing, or the best thing. In the shot with the little boy, it seems partially on his nose and then on the other part on his face. What did it grab? And in all of the other shots, I seem a similar thing. In the shot on the edge of his face, well the focus is more on the tree in the background than his face. Also, in all of these shots, I think I would aim at the eye or a part of the face close to the eye. Edges can be good too, because of the detail, but they can also be dodgy too, as you seem to be seeing here. I’m not saying there is no problem with your camera, but I think I’d either try to focus a slight bit differently or I would pick some examples where your edge detail, or contrast, is mostly in the same plane. If the detail crosses out of one plane as seen in the square, then it could end up well off of where you intended it to be.

I hope this helps some as I am not trying to troll you. Good luck.

csebasti wrote:
Back in March last year I posted about issues I was having with my 5D IV autofocus:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1585948/0

After getting lots of good advice, I sent my camera and Canon 24-105 f/4L lens to cannon. A couple weeks and ~$200 later, they returned them saying the body, the sensor out of position and the image was blurred. For the lens they said adjustment of the assembly was incorrect and the image was blurred. Both were electrically and mechanically adjusted.

I got the camera back in late June. I still don't believe the camera is working as it should as I still get...Show more →

Jan 19, 2020 at 07:05 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

IMO if Canon serviced both the body and lens it wouldn't need any MFA for that lens, or very little. I've sent lenses and bodies separately which were set to factory specs and had better results.

It is clearly front focusing. I would contact Canon and escalate it. Stand your ground with this issue since you already paid $200. If you don't want to do that re-visit MFA. I suspect it will be out quite a bit. Canon service told me a few times that if it is out a lot use MFA to get by but it should go in for servicing.

Jan 19, 2020 at 08:40 AM

RottenTheCat
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

I'm wondering.....

Does the 5Div show all the focusing spots, no matter the pattern selected?

If so what focusing pattern was selected?

Or.... if using "all available focusing spots", then something is very strange, because if using multiple spots the camera will almost always "choose" the spot(s) closest to the camera to focus on, and regardless of correct focus, the camera did not do so, except for the first example of the young lad at the beach.

No offense to Csebasti but, could there be some user error going on here? I'm trying to wrap my head around the cameras "choice" of focusing spot, which seems not right. Could be lack of coffee on a Sunday morning, dunno.....

Jan 19, 2020 at 08:55 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

That looks like a 3rd party plug-in for LR? It is saying spot AF for 3 files and single point for 1 file. While accurate I never liked the LR version and prefer Canons DPP for that purpose.

Jan 19, 2020 at 09:01 AM

Uarctos
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

My 5D4 will sometimes just miss focus completely, although I am shooting some static subject in relatively good light (iso 1600, f4, 1/320s). I am using the back button, Case 1 and AI Servo and just keep on bumping the AF ON button to be sure I get some sharp images. It's mostly front focusing on those occasions, although the lens is dead on and needs no MFA. I find it less reliable than my old 6d, which was a slow one point AF DSLR, but better at locking the focus on my static subjects.
I have no trouble when shooting sports with the 600L as the light is good and/or the subjects have good contrast, but as soon as the light falls when shooting wildlife the keeper rate drops like a stone.

Jan 19, 2020 at 10:37 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

The thing about DSLR's is there is variation between shots. Pick something on an angle, put the camera on a tripod and take 20 shots. It is slight and mostly usable but it is there. If it front focuses (or back) noticeably and is inconsistent from good to bad than MFA can't do anything.

I had that with my 7D2. It was not bad but noticeable. It went from back to front focus so I sent it in. Canon did a good job with it. I only had to send one lens in do date. After several conversations Canon service encouraged me to and it was still under warranty. My 70-200 2.8 II which needed +13 at 200mm. They found a mis-calibrated board. Two reps told me if it is out badly use MFA but it should be looked at. I still had to MFA when I got it back but it was within the usual range which is typically around +-3.

Jan 19, 2020 at 10:57 AM

dansmail26
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

csebasti wrote:
Back in March last year I posted about issues I was having with my 5D IV autofocus:

A side note, how did you get the images with the focus point data displayed? Is the a 5div feature or can I get it on a 7dii?
Thanks

Jan 19, 2020 at 12:31 PM

csebasti
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

tk lp wrote:
It does appear that you are getting front focusing. The picture with the Christmas tree looks like it just missed. It cant hurt to check AFMA.

I have some other examples showing very clear back focus. Some quite far back.

How much should I expect AFMA to compensate? It's been a while since I've played with it. I expect it will be different at different focal lengths/apertures, but for say f/4 at 35mm or 55mm? You wouldn't expect AFMA to be able to correct more than several inches, would you?

Jan 19, 2020 at 01:56 PM

csebasti
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

RogerZoul wrote:
Seems to me that in this set of shots, if you believe that the camera actually got focus, that the focus square is over a spot that has something forward and some back, rather than just a mostly flat area with detail. Depending on where the focus sensor actually is, the camera could be just picking the nearest thing, or the best thing. In the shot with the little boy, it seems partially on his nose and then on the other part on his face. What did it grab? And in all of the other shots, I seem a similar...Show more →

Good points. I'll admit I commonly do not get the focus point right over the eye. In fact frequently end up on a cheek with very little contrast, and don't expect focus to be nailed on those for sure. I definitely need to do better about that. But I guess at f/4 in the first two shots, I'd expect that there would be enough DOF to do better than it did if it was related to some slight plane differences. And in the second shot, I'm shooting upward at my son, so that puts his foot which is in focus well ahead of the plane that the focus point is on.

Jan 19, 2020 at 02:06 PM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

csebasti wrote:
I have some other examples showing very clear back focus. Some quite far back.

How much should I expect AFMA to compensate? It's been a while since I've played with it. I expect it will be different at different focal lengths/apertures, but for say f/4 at 35mm or 55mm? You wouldn't expect AFMA to be able to correct more than several inches, would you?

I would not use that Christmas tree as an example. It just missed the focus. What is your 1st priority AF set too?

Jan 19, 2020 at 02:59 PM

csebasti
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

Zenon Char wrote:
IMO if Canon serviced both the body and lens it wouldn't need any MFA for that lens, or very little. I've sent lenses and bodies separately which were set to factory specs and had better results.

It is clearly front focusing. I would contact Canon and escalate it. Stand your ground with this issue since you already paid $200. If you don't want to do that re-visit MFA. I suspect it will be out quite a bit. Canon service told me a few times that if it is out a lot use MFA to get by but it should...Show more →

I agree that after service, I shouldn't need MFA, which is why I haven't revisited that.
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Zenon Char wrote:
That looks like a 3rd party plug-in for LR? It is saying spot AF for 3 files and single point for 1 file. While accurate I never liked the LR version and prefer Canons DPP for that purpose.

Yes, it's a 3rd party light room plug in. I use that so I don't have to go into DPP since I'm already using Lightroom. Just trying to save a little time, but I do like the DPP version better as well.

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Zenon Char wrote:
The thing about DSLR's is there is variation between shots. Pick something on an angle, put the camera on a tripod and take 20 shots. It is slight and mostly usable but it is there. If it front focuses (or back) noticeably and is inconsistent from good to bad than MFA can't do anything.

I had that with my 7D2. It was not bad but noticeable. It went from back to front focus so I sent it in. Canon did a good job with it. I only had to send one lens in do date. After several conversations Canon...Show more →

Yes, understood there will be variation. After all, there is tolerance associated with all the parts involved. I just expect better than I'm seeing as it was immediately noticeable to me after moving from my 5D II to 5D IV. Never had this much variation with the 5D II.

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Zenon Char wrote:
I would not use that Christmas tree as an example. It just missed the focus. What is your 1st priority AF set too?

Yes, I agree the Christmas tree picture isn't a good example as the focus point was so close to the edge of my son's face. Bad example. I'll post a couple where the focus shifted from clearly back focused to clearly front focused. Same subject/scene/lens, about 10 seconds apart.

Jan 19, 2020 at 03:33 PM

csebasti
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

RottenTheCat wrote:
I'm wondering.....

Does the 5Div show all the focusing spots, no matter the pattern selected?

If so what focusing pattern was selected?

Or.... if using "all available focusing spots", then something is very strange, because if using multiple spots the camera will almost always "choose" the spot(s) closest to the camera to focus on, and regardless of correct focus, the camera did not do so, except for the first example of the young lad at the beach.

No offense to Csebasti but, could there be some user error going on here? I'm trying to wrap my head around the cameras "choice" of focusing spot,...Show more →

The LR plugin I was using shows which are selected. Here's an example of a shot with 9 points selected, the camera used the center point. The info at the right tells what focus mode was selected: AF Point Expansion (8 point). All the previous examples had either spot or single point selected.

Jan 19, 2020 at 03:48 PM

RottenTheCat
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

Thanks Csebasti...

In some of those cases - girl on motorbike (by the way GREAT classic Honda there... nice!)
The one with the Christmas tree... I think there's a situation where the error, which is great, may be your fault. Not knocking ya! Just saying maybe work on things. The camera will want to focus on whatever is closest, and the spots in the VF are not 100 percent exact.

About "not needing AF micro adjustment" after service. Maybe yes, maybe no. That is, there is a tolerance for each. There could be very slight overlapping tolerances. I would not be annoyed by having to zero in a lens, even after service. FWIW, my old 7D went back as it backfocused everything by a huge amount. Came back much better, but... some of my lenses, needed sometimes more, sometimes less, mfa on the 7D, than on my (then current) 5Diii. And some of those lenses needed zero mfa on either the 7D or 5Diii.

Don't know if you can do this, but I like shooting across the back garden at my neighbors asphalt singled roof. I'm smiling here, because he has one particular tile missing a corner, that makes a wonderful target. Its very easy to pixel peep that into good focus. That works for longer lenses. For shorter lenses.... I'm rather fond of the yardstick stick test with the yardstick set at about 30 degrees (not a steep slant). Do that all from a tripod of course.

Someplace on this forum, I describe a $900 error of mine. I had a 300mm f/4L and it would not focus with the EOS-R. Long story short, I bought a new lens - the IS version. Then discovered it was the filter causing the issue. Well... at least I got a new lens, and my friends over in Md got a new lens too. My loss, their gain.

Don't fret the mfa.... but do some serious testing, to rule out _the photographer_. It surprise you, and if it is you in some instances, you'll end up being a better photographer in the end!

Jan 19, 2020 at 05:26 PM

csebasti
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

dansmail26 wrote:
A side note, how did you get the images with the focus point data displayed? Is the a 5div feature or can I get it on a 7dii?
Thanks

Those are from a 3rd party LR plugin from this site.

Jan 19, 2020 at 05:44 PM

csebasti
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

Here is an example of a clear back focus, followed by maybe a little front focus on the next shot. These are a couple snapshots of my son on a hike from last summer.

Clearly backfocused in this example when looking at the 100% crops. I was about at his level, maybe shooting slightly downward.

Focus point. In this case on AF point expansion over his face and the camera chose the upper point.

100% crop of his face. Definitely not in focus.

100% crop of the rock he's on. To me the best focus looks to be behind him around where the large shadow ends.

This one was taken 9 seconds later, I changed zoom, orientation, AF area mode to single point.

Focus point. Single point this time. Missed his eye (or sunglasses). My error there.

100% crop of his face. Much better this time. While I still feel this is a little soft, it's likely my lens not being that sharp.

100% crop of the rock. I was thinking this was clearly front focused on the rock. But looking more, it may be that the focus plane actually runs through his face and the front of the rock. He is slightly leaning forward, and I was shooting slightly downward. But it is definitely very different behavior than the previous picture.

Ultimately there is a clear example of backfocus in the first one here, and some clear front focus in some images in my first post. In my mind that points to a focus issue with the camera (and/or lens) since MFA wouldn't correct that.

Or is it possible that I'd get backfocus at wide angles and cross over to frontfocus at longer zooms?

Jan 19, 2020 at 06:13 PM

RottenTheCat
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 5D IV Autofocus issues

Completely possible to have wide/tele discrepancies, which is why the 5DIV has settings for each. And the latest examples are better candidates for evaluation. Still, you might try something a bit more controlled.

Jan 19, 2020 at 06:18 PM

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