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Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread

  
 
Sonnar-7
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p.55 #1 · p.55 #1 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


_jim_ wrote:
I would love one, too.

Judging from the one english language review of the prototype...it wasn't quite ready for prime time (the review copy didn't reach infinity focus and LLL were planning on further tweaking the design to work better with digital sensors). So, sounds like it might be a while before the final version goes into production.

That being said, the review isn't particularly noteworthy or helpful (as it is neither overtly technical or artful). I wish that David (from LLL) would send review copies to people like Fred.



There are a lot of interesting things to look forward with such a project from LLB, their first 1.4 lens btw, I hope it to be a little bit less pricey than the 50mm 1.2, but thatís not it, their lens tend to strike a good balance between character and performance and I very much like that endgoal. Iím curious to see that in a 1.4 lens from them.
Iím a 50mm person, I almost own nothing more than that, I like 75-85mm when Iím in a big city and I used a wide angle once in Hong-Kong because what can you do?
I acquired a 35mm MS-Optics because thatís what I found and itís a focal length that I kinda fancy now.
The Nokton 35mm 1.4 S.C. is tempting, I hesitate to go for the version I for its lower contrast and maybe warmer colors but the version II has more outlines in the bokeh bubbles and I like that too.
The LLL 35mm makes me curious and there is the Mr. Ding 35mm 1.8 that look more characterful than their Noxlux.

Well, back to my Panchro in the meanwhile.




Apr 19, 2024 at 01:43 PM
azenis
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p.55 #2 · p.55 #2 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


Finally got my 50mm F1.2 Titanium delivered today.

I will be doing a more controlled testing later in the week and compare it to the original Leica Noctilux.

So far, from the single pic I took, I'm noticing that the image is cooler than the original and seems to have a more uniform performance across the frame where the original is is sharp in the center but falls quickly toward the corners.



Apr 25, 2024 at 12:51 AM
Sonnar-7
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p.55 #3 · p.55 #3 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


Nothing much.


Light Lens Lab Speed Panchro II & Nikon Zf























Apr 27, 2024 at 06:21 AM
azenis
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p.55 #4 · p.55 #4 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


Ok, I finally mounted the LLL 50mm F1.2 Titanium on the M9P as well as my original 50mm F1.2 Noctilux.

The test was on a tripod, focus was done to the best of my ability. Everything from ISO, and shutter were all manual to make sure they were matched.

Now, without further ado, let's dive in.

The hardware:
LLL did replicate the original Noctilux to the T. Not only you can hardly tell from looking at it (other than the color), but one of the problem I was having with the original Noctilux with Techart TZM-02 adapter was that the focus ring would not clear the tab to lock the lens. Hence even though there's no play, I can always take the lens on and off since the tab is always pushed down.

The same problem can be observed with the LLL.

And all the accessories such as original hoods and caps of the Leica can be used on the LLL and vice-versa. In a sense, I think it's great for original Leica owners to get the LLL just so that they have a set of hoods to use with their Leica since these things are fetching crazy prices.

As far as the build quality goes, I can only comment on the Titanium version I got, but the built was excellent on my copy. Everything that should move is buttery-smooth and everything that shouldn't stay firmly in place with zero play that I could notice.

Now, the image quality. Again, this was done on a M9P to minimize whatever variable a non-OEM camera introduces. I do have another set on Z8, I'll try to post later.



This is wide open. The first thing I noticed was the color temperature difference where the Leica was clearly warmer than the LLL replica.

Now, I think LLL did a decent job of mimicking the bokeh. The drawing of the bokeh on both lenses looks similar to my eyes when looking. If I'm going to pick, I do prefer the Leica as the warmer image seems to be more pleasing overall and the micro-contrast seems just a tad better.



Zooming in at 1:1 to pixel peep, we can see the main difference of the two besides the color temp. The center, in-focus area, which my Amazon JP Danboard stands, the LLL seems a tad brighter albeit with a hue around the edges.
I did verify with Mr. Zhou from LLL that it is a fact that their replica lenses has a slightly faster and therefore brighter than the Leica.

The Leica is a tad dimmer, but all the details and contrast is there. This is what I personally feel the "signature" style of the original Noctilux. Sharp and contrasty wide open, especially considering this lens was designed and made almost 60yrs ago. But the quality quickly change as soon as you leave the center. If you look at the marker I placed right in front of Danboard, you can see on the writing of the word "Expo" is not the same quality. At first I thought it was a vibration or focus problem. However, I took the shot again, re-doing everything, I got the picture that you see above.

The LLL, OTOH, even though the hue, which looks like a coma of some sort, gave less contrast and seemingly less sharpness. But the image quality stays the same way more of less across the focus plane.



Here at pixel peeping level, we can see bokeh difference. It's very subtle, but it's there. Although as I said, I think LLL did a good job trying to replicate that bokeh *feel* to it. The transition and drawing are very similar. But it's definitely present at pixel level.

Then it occurred to me, what if I matched the color temperature so that they look the same. So I did just that. Instead of having 5200 on both, I matched it by using the drop tool at the same spot. It gave me 6500 on the Leica and 7900 on the LLL. And this is the result:



Now, looking at full frame, they look a lot more similar than the original shot when color temps were actually matched. Although the micro-contrast different is still there as shown in the next 2 shots:





From my own eyes, what I could tell was the structure of the contrast. I marked both points where I looked and the out of the focus area on the Leica is a lot more defined than the LLL.

It truly speaks volume about the original Leica Noctilux. A marvel in optical engineering and production at its time. A lens that was made nearly 60yrs ago and it could still show to its competitors that it can do things that modern technology can't quite replicate.

I did think about maybe it's got something to do with the fact that the LLL's aperture is slightly wider at max aperture, but the question that needs to be asked in my mind was... is the LLL a good replicate to the original Noctilux?

I think LLL did a great job trying to find that bokeh drawing of a legendary lens such as the original Leica Noctilux. Are they the same? The short answer is no. But the long answer is more complex than that. For people who are Leica aficionados or collectors who want nothing but the real deal, don't worry, they haven't got it all figured out. Whatever the difference was... the coating, glass type or whatever magic Leica got under its sleeve, LLL was no match. There are certain aspects, which I also discussed it with people at LLL, such as the fact that the aspherical elements on the original Noctilux were hand-ground creating all the little differences, that their digital machines could not quite replicate.

Thus, for my conclusion, I'd go as far as saying that the LLL is very good... a better choice than Leica's own reissue 50mm F1.2 Noctilux-M ASPH for people chasing the look of the original Noctilux. But if one is after the real deal... like trying to match the taste of that incredible bottle of 82' Lafite Rothchild with a modern Lafite, I'm sorry. It's not it. Don't get me wrong... it was a very good one. Like a good bottle of 2018, but it can never be the same.

Jay




Apr 29, 2024 at 01:15 AM
_jim_
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p.55 #5 · p.55 #5 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


azenis wrote:
Ok, I finally mounted the LLL 50mm F1.2 Titanium on the M9P as well as my original 50mm F1.2 Noctilux.

The test was on a tripod, focus was done to the best of my ability. Everything from ISO, and shutter were all manual to make sure they were matched.

Now, without further ado, let's dive in.

The hardware:
LLL did replicate the original Noctilux to the T. Not only you can hardly tell from looking at it (other than the color), but one of the problem I was having with the original Noctilux with Techart TZM-02 adapter was that the focus ring would not
...Show more


Thanks for doing this comparison!

Incredible that you have an original 50/1.2. Very rare, indeed!

Would you mind taking some photos of with out-of-focus point light sources with both lense? I am curious how the onion ring pattern of LLL compares to the vintage Leica (as the Leica re-issue shows none...and my LLL shows lots). Also, can you shed any more light on what you mean by "their digital machines"? The English language marketing copy that exists around the production of the LLL aspheric elements isn't super clear (i.e. it reads like marketing copy), but it gives the impression that LLL are hand grinding the lenses (like the original). That being said, the amount of onion rings/imperfections in the surface of the elements makes me think that they are still molding the elements or some kind of of hybrid process.




Apr 29, 2024 at 01:01 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.55 #6 · p.55 #6 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


azenis wrote:
Ok, I finally mounted the LLL 50mm F1.2 Titanium on the M9P as well as my original 50mm F1.2 Noctilux.

The test was on a tripod, focus was done to the best of my ability. Everything from ISO, and shutter were all manual to make sure they were matched.

Now, without further ado, let's dive in.

The hardware:
LLL did replicate the original Noctilux to the T. Not only you can hardly tell from looking at it (other than the color), but one of the problem I was having with the original Noctilux with Techart TZM-02 adapter was that the focus ring would not
...Show more

Thanks for posting these tests, Jay.

It seems to me that the LLL shot was more front-focused than the Leica. (You can see the marker is sharper in the LLL shot, while the mannequin is sharper in the Leica shot).

It would be great if you could post some comparisons showing how the specular highlights look in particular, especially patterns like onion patterns.



Apr 29, 2024 at 01:33 PM
azenis
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p.55 #7 · p.55 #7 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


I will look into it. Will post another set done with Z8. But the result that I'm seeing is pretty much on par with the files from the M9P, although with higher resolution.


Apr 29, 2024 at 01:51 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.55 #8 · p.55 #8 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


azenis wrote:
I will look into it. Will post another set done with Z8. But the result that I'm seeing is pretty much on par with the files from the M9P, although with higher resolution.


I understand that focusing these lenses isn't easy. Focusing with the RF may not be desired as the lenses may not be perfectly aligned with the rangefinder. Using focus peaking in LV can sometimes exacerbate the issue, as peak resolution doesn't necessarily mean peak contrast.



Apr 29, 2024 at 03:02 PM
mgscheu
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p.55 #9 · p.55 #9 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


LLL has posted plans to make an entire line of SP-II lenses of various focal lengths. 75 mm f/2 next.


May 06, 2024 at 09:23 AM
tommmi
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p.55 #10 · p.55 #10 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


Would be interesting to know which f-number they are targeting on each focal length.


May 06, 2024 at 12:26 PM
 


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Sonnar-7
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p.55 #11 · p.55 #11 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


_jim_ wrote:
Good question:

I really like both. Let me elaborate...

Pros of the Nokton f/1:
1. It is sharper at every aperture at every distance in every part of the frame.
2. Shorter focus throw (I find the very, very long throw of the LLL to be slow and doesn't necessarily aid in more precise focusing).
3. It's lighter.
4. Bayonet mount hoods are the best. I can grab my camera from my bag without concern that I am grabbing a free spinning hood (like on the LLL) and gouging the paint job.
5. Very low geometric distortion.
6. Modern high contrast.
7. Very good flare resistance.

Pros of the '1966':
1.
...Show more

I have become curious about the Voigtlander 1.0 by looking at your photos and reading about it.
I initially thought that it would be of no interest to me since I have the Voigtlander 50mm 1.2 and had assumed it was all about the same in rendering, but discovered that it yields more character than I thought it would.
It looks like it has some structure in the bokeh, could it be that it has more than the LLL 50mm 1.2?



May 09, 2024 at 02:33 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.55 #12 · p.55 #12 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


Knowing you appreciate characterful lenses, I would suggest the CV 50/1.1 Nokton. Similar rendering to the 50/1 Noct.

Sonnar-7 wrote:
I have become curious about the Voigtlander 1.0 by looking at your photos and reading about it.
I initially thought that it would be of no interest to me since I have the Voigtlander 50mm 1.2 and had assumed it was all about the same in rendering, but discovered that it yields more character than I thought it would.
It looks like it has some structure in the bokeh, could it be that it has more than the LLL 50mm 1.2?




May 09, 2024 at 02:36 PM
Sonnar-7
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p.55 #13 · p.55 #13 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


Fred Miranda wrote:
Knowing you appreciate characterful lenses, I would suggest the CV 50/1.1 Nokton. Similar rendering to the 50/1 Noct.



I was pondering a lot about this one, it got me quite confused, in some shots it looks like it has a lot of structure in the bokeh and in other itís very creamy. I was a bit bummed out to see that it barely flares artefact wise(how odd for such an old Voigtlander).
But still itís on my list, I might just go for it since it still can be found for kind of a bargain and see for myself.
I was surprised by looking lately at the 1.0, it looks more interesting than I thought but the 1.1 on paper should be a better match for me, I looked at your comparison with it and the shots were quite pleasing.
Iím on the market for a big 50mm with wide aperture but the LLL still is a bit pricey to my taste.



May 09, 2024 at 02:45 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.55 #14 · p.55 #14 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


Sonnar-7 wrote:
I was pondering a lot about this one, it got me quite confused, in some shots it looks like it has a lot of structure in the bokeh and in other itís very creamy. I was a bit bummed out to see that it barely flares artefact wise(how odd for such an old Voigtlander).
But still itís on my list, I might just go for it since it still can be found for kind of a bargain and see for myself.
I was surprised by looking lately at the 1.0, it looks more interesting than I thought but the 1.1 on
...Show more

For these vintage lenses, I lean towards lenses that offer sharper images with more structure in the rendering, which is why I'm not particularly drawn to the Leica 50/1.2. Its softness and somewhat smooth rendering don't align with my preferences. Therefore, I didn't hesitate to pass on the new LLL or the re-issued Leica. However, I'm a big fan of the Leica 50/1 Noctilux, which I find even more appealing than the bulkier 50/0.95 Noct. The Voigtlander 50/1.1, while smaller and lighter, delivers a similar aesthetic to the Noctilux, although with higher contrast, which can be adjusted in post-processing.



May 09, 2024 at 03:14 PM
Sonnar-7
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p.55 #15 · p.55 #15 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


Fred Miranda wrote:
For these vintage lenses, I lean towards lenses that offer sharper images with more structure in the rendering, which is why I'm not particularly drawn to the Leica 50/1.2. Its softness and somewhat smooth rendering don't align with my preferences. Therefore, I didn't hesitate to pass on the new LLL or the re-issued Leica. However, I'm a big fan of the Leica 50/1 Noctilux, which I find even more appealing than the bulkier 50/0.95 Noct. The Voigtlander 50/1.1, while smaller and lighter, delivers a similar aesthetic to the Noctilux, although with higher contrast, which can be adjusted in post-processing.


I would concur on those preferences, thatís why I went from buying every M42 vintage lenses I could find to some new old formula lenses, the softness is not really what I like either in the vintage rendering, structure in the bokeh would be the main thing and then I donít mind contrast and sharpness.
Calling it vintage is a disservice to some of those ę†character lenses†Ľ it could just be a matter of choice, the consensus in modern photography is to lean toward ultra creamy bokeh and I donít think itís necessarily synonymous to optical perfection.
I thought the LLL 50mm 1.2 would be my dream lens but Iím not that sure now even though I would still be curious to try one.
The 50mm 1.1 is indeed interesting, Iím surprised in all that, that my favorite lens these days might be the Panchro, my old self wouldnít believe me to have fallen for a f2 lens. How moderate have I become.




May 09, 2024 at 03:32 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.55 #16 · p.55 #16 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


Sonnar-7 wrote:
I would concur on those preferences, thatís why I went from buying every M42 vintage lenses I could find to some new old formula lenses, the softness is not really what I like either in the vintage rendering, structure in the bokeh would be the main thing and then I donít mind contrast and sharpness.
Calling it vintage is a disservice to some of those ę†character lenses†Ľ it could just be a matter of choice, the consensus in modern photography is to lean toward ultra creamy bokeh and I donít think itís necessarily synonymous to optical perfection.
I thought the LLL 50mm
...Show more

Another advantage of the CV 50/1.1 is its black front thread (instead of brass chrome) and the aperture ring, which has a satisfyingly tactile feel (cliquey) reminiscent of older Leica lenses. I appreciate these details too. The filter thread is 58mm just like the first version of the 50/1 Noct.



May 09, 2024 at 04:12 PM
tunisia
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p.55 #17 · p.55 #17 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


In the context of these two lenses, the CV 50/1.1 and LLL 50mm f/1.2, where do you guys think the MS-Optics Elnomaxim 55/1.2 fits in?
Thanks,
Joe D



May 09, 2024 at 05:27 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.55 #18 · p.55 #18 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


tunisia wrote:
In the context of these two lenses, the CV 50/1.1 and LLL 50mm f/1.2, where do you guys think the MS-Optics Elnomaxim 55/1.2 fits in?
Thanks,
Joe D


Hi Joe,

It's definitely a small lens, but I've never tried the Elnomaxim 55/1.2. Given that it's a 4-element f/1.2 lens, I expect there will be lots of coma and spherical aberration wide open.



May 09, 2024 at 11:12 PM
Juha Kannisto
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p.55 #19 · p.55 #19 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


tunisia wrote:
In the context of these two lenses, the CV 50/1.1 and LLL 50mm f/1.2, where do you guys think the MS-Optics Elnomaxim 55/1.2 fits in?
Thanks,
Joe D


I have Elnomaxim 55/1.2 and I really like it a lot, but as I don't have CV 50/1.1 nor LLL 50/1.2 I can't really say how it compares to those. Elnomaxim is very soft and extremely glowy wide open and it sharpens up quite dramatically when stopped down. At f8 it's pretty sharp corner-to-corner for infinity shots (on my Sony A7CII). I mostly use it wide open (I like it's wide open extreme character better than slightly stopped down where the glow goes away pretty fast) and at f8. Some albums of samples:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/wUgWZdX7vpCgdfN86
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LDYPFCi8BLfaWGZi7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vqgBtDUeZnpgAnG87
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PtmJJo5UBPKEfdGv9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ag4vjrVzEUDJ6pA7A



May 10, 2024 at 05:34 AM
catacore
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p.55 #20 · p.55 #20 · Light Lens Lab (LLL) replica lenses discussion & image thread


Juha Kannisto wrote:
I have Elnomaxim 55/1.2 and I really like it a lot, but as I don't have CV 50/1.1 nor LLL 50/1.2 I can't really say how it compares to those. Elnomaxim is very soft and extremely glowy wide open and it sharpens up quite dramatically when stopped down. At f8 it's pretty sharp corner-to-corner for infinity shots (on my Sony A7CII). I mostly use it wide open (I like it's wide open extreme character better than slightly stopped down where the glow goes away pretty fast) and at f8. Some albums of samples:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/wUgWZdX7vpCgdfN86
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LDYPFCi8BLfaWGZi7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vqgBtDUeZnpgAnG87
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PtmJJo5UBPKEfdGv9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ag4vjrVzEUDJ6pA7A


Wow, that Elnomaxim's rendition (wide open) is "wilder" than the Canon Dream Lens that I have just purchased a couple of weeks ago.



May 10, 2024 at 01:55 PM
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