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Archive 2019 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

uscmatt99
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I find cat's eye bokeh and onion rings very annoying. This is one of the reasons I like the ZM 50/1.5 Sonnar so much. It's not very sharp outside the center, but that's a tradeoff I'm okay with. I really like the vignette as well. Only issue I have with these typical rangefinder lens attributes is that the FC is away from the camera at the edges, so distant things come into focus at the edges.

Jul 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM

Fred Miranda
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

hiepphotog wrote:
The more constricted opening toward the corners, which also creates the cat's eye shape, effectively increases the DOF toward the corners as well. It is a similar concept with the increased DOF in a lens with apodization element.

---------------------------------------------

You nailed!!

Apr 09, 2021 at 12:59 AM

DavidBM
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

Fred Miranda wrote:
You nailed!!

Both cat's eye/swirling and increased dof at the corners are consequences of optical vignetting. I'm seeing flat-field lenses with high optical vignetting, so the off-axis DOF increase is not caused by FC. The latter may only amplify the effect depending on the curve shape.

Exactly. And I think some older lenses has such contrast drop offs due to various aberrations in the outer field that we noticed it a bit less back then.

Apr 09, 2021 at 01:28 AM

ilkka_nissila
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

Out-of-focus rendering is highly subjective; some want a bit of swirly bokeh and cat's eyes, some don't. Designers have to balance how open the aperture is with how big the lens is and other desirable characteristics of lens quality. Even if a lens has significant cat's eyes doesn't mean the lens designers didn't consider it or reduce it from what it might have been.

Apr 09, 2021 at 02:08 AM

Sndr
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

My preference (and i suppose others' as well) would depend on focal length, I suppose: a bit of cat's eye bokeh in the background on an 85mm portrait can look good. In a 35mm scene, not so much.

Apr 09, 2021 at 02:58 AM

tsdevine
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I think Sigma did a pretty good job in this regard with the 65mm DG DN. I guess we'll see what the 35mm f/1.4 DG DN looks like.

-Tim

Apr 09, 2021 at 06:09 AM

hiepphotog
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

ilkka_nissila wrote:
Out-of-focus rendering is highly subjective; some want a bit of swirly bokeh and cat's eyes, some don't. Designers have to balance how open the aperture is with how big the lens is and other desirable characteristics of lens quality. Even if a lens has significant cat's eyes doesn't mean the lens designers didn't consider it or reduce it from what it might have been.

So in the end, you haven't stated your preference. Personally, I don't think severe cat's eyes and swirly bokeh are desirable on modern optics, especially when you have to pay the modern optics price. And there is really no prize for trying/considering. In the end, it really doesn't matter much, there is more to the whole buying a camera system than just cat's eye and swirly bokeh. There are more appealing features in the Nikon system, especially to a long time Nikon shooter.

Apr 09, 2021 at 09:03 AM

ilkka_nissila
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

hiepphotog wrote:
So in the end, you haven't stated your preference. Personally, I don't think severe cat's eyes and swirly bokeh are desirable on modern optics, especially when you have to pay the modern optics price. And there is really no prize for trying/considering. In the end, it really doesn't matter much, there is more to the whole buying a camera system than just cat's eye and swirly bokeh. There are more appealing features in the Nikon system, especially to a long time Nikon shooter.

I don't like strong swirly bokeh such as given sometimes by the Nikon 105/1.4 but most of my lenses give less of that effect and I'm fine with a bit of cat's eyes. I still use the 105/1.4 but occasionally the bokeh annoys me. 105/2 gives much nicer bokeh and less cat's eyes or swirl but it's not as sharp wide open. Tradeoffs, tradeoffs. In terms of bokeh I prefer the Nikon 85/1,4 and 105/2 to the 105/1.4. Would I buy a 1.64 kg Sigma with this problem eradicated? No, it would be too heavy for my taste. But I understand why someone else might choose that lens.

Apr 09, 2021 at 09:15 AM

Mystik
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

chez wrote:
I just don't like bokeh balls period whether they are nice and round and smooth, onion or cat's eye. I feel they distract from the main subject of the image.

Sometimes they cannot be avoided though. Like a typical outdoor portrait session where your subject is in the shade, but the sunlight is catching leaves in the background. This is why people tend to obsess over bokeh balls....you can't avoid having them in the frame, but you want to minimize them as much as possible so that they don't become distracting. This is why rendering in general matters...unless you are in a studio, you don't typically have full control of the frame (nor do you want to want to have full control if you are trying to create a natural setting) and don't want to overemphasize the wrong details and distract from the subject of the photo.

Cat's eyes are not ideal because they are not symmetrical...your eyes will be drawn to them. That said, most lenses have cats eyes wide open. This is why I tend to stop down a couple clicks if I have hard highlights in the background.

Edited on Apr 09, 2021 at 09:21 AM · View previous versions

Apr 09, 2021 at 09:19 AM

mak543
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I'd take smooth cat's eyes over outlined/onion perfect circles any day. As long as bokeh balls are smooth, I find them appealing.

Apr 09, 2021 at 09:20 AM

KE_Photo
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

The worst is nervous/busy bokeh - onion rings aren't so hot - anything else is fine though I do prefer smooth and round it's not the end of the world to have cats peeping in there. You get what you get depending on the lens - so don't sweat it. Composition, light and focus are the main goals. The BG can be OOF or not - totally depends on the target result. In portraits I can go anywhere from a crushed BG to totally sharp if the subject and BG are both important. Personal preferences, equipment limitations - or requirement of the job are the only determining factors.

Apr 09, 2021 at 12:36 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I came across a few lenses with better than average optical vignetting:

Here is my list so far:

FE 24/1.4 GM
Leica 35/2 Asph
Zeiss 35/2 (RX1)
Sigma 65/2 DG DN
FE 85/1.4 GM

Apr 09, 2021 at 03:39 PM

BastianK
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

Fred Miranda wrote:
I came across a few lenses with better than average optical vignetting:

Here is my list so far:

FE 24/1.4 GM
Leica 35/2 Asph
Zeiss 35/2 (RX1)
Sigma 65/2 DG DN
FE 85/1.4 GM

Wish I had some lenses to add to the list, but low optical vignettting really is a rare treat...

Second 1.4/24 GM, Rx1 and 1.4/85 GM being on the list, haven't used the other two.

Apr 10, 2021 at 09:38 AM

vdo1
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

The king would be the 100mm STF. Roundest, smoothest bokeh balls ever, nearly no vignetting.

Apr 10, 2021 at 09:46 AM

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