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Archive 2019 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

hiepphotog
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

Cat's eye bokeh was the fact of life back when I started photography. I was never bothered by it, though I have never liked the truncated bokeh ball from the super fast vintage lenses (e.g. Canon 50/0.95, 85/1.2). It's only recently that cat's eye bokeh came under scrutiny and its implications. Some people was bashing the RF 50 for its severe cat's eye and the increased, less pleasant DOF, as a result, toward the corners. Here we praised the GM 85 and 24 for what they accomplished in that respect and how some were disappointed the GM 135 couldn't achieve the same.

So I just wonder what others think of this. From what I have seen, only Sony is actively trying to eliminate this (and probably CV seeing what the new 21/1.4 produces) while Canikon do not seem to care (plenty of cat's eye bokeh on the slower S 1.8).

Jul 07, 2019 at 04:25 PM

realVivek
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

IMO, any bokeh highlights is a distracting aspect in a photo. Small and compact with the least distraction (as in a APD element incorporated lens) is the best.

Jul 07, 2019 at 04:33 PM

grahamgibson
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I agree, it is a distraction, but a subtle one. Not the worst of lens characteristics to have; sometimes it is not noticeable. Most viewers wouldn't clue into it specifically when it is visible, but it still can have an effect on the image and the impression it creates. I prefer lenses without cat's eye bokeh, but it still can be an acceptable trade-off to me instead of making the lens larger.

Jul 08, 2019 at 12:33 PM

chez
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I just don't like bokeh balls period whether they are nice and round and smooth, onion or cat's eye. I feel they distract from the main subject of the image.

Jul 08, 2019 at 01:00 PM

AndrewNYC
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I've never noticed in a good photo if the bokeh is a certain way or not. Only in photos that rely on bokeh as their sole contribution to the photo.

Jul 08, 2019 at 01:01 PM

freaklikeme
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I think you're talking about two different problems; optical vignetting, which creates the cats eye bokeh, and FC, which changes the appearance of depth of focus around the long edges. I don't care much about either when it comes to general purpose lenses, since it's easy enough to shoot around either of the problems. I do care about them when it comes to lenses designed for close-focus/macro.

Jul 08, 2019 at 04:44 PM

Surfnsun
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I’ve always preferred a smooth OOF background in my own photography. The shape of the bokeh balls hasn’t ever been a concern or problem for myself or any photos I’ve shared with friends & family. To be honest, I’ve always found sunstars far more distracting than the shape of the bokeh balls in the background. I just accept that a busy background creates busy bokeh. Cat-eyes or round or whatever. I’m more concerned with my subject. I just try and consider my backgrounds when it’s convenient to do so; otherwise I just don’t worry about it.

Jul 08, 2019 at 05:10 PM

chez
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

Surfnsun wrote:
I’ve always preferred a smooth OOF background in my own photography. The shape of the bokeh balls hasn’t ever been a concern or problem for myself or any photos I’ve shared with friends & family. To be honest, I’ve always found sunstars far more distracting than the shape of the bokeh balls in the background. I just accept that a busy background creates busy bokeh. Cat-eyes or round or whatever. I’m more concerned with my subject. I just try and consider my backgrounds when it’s convenient to do so; otherwise I just don’t worry about it.

I totally agree with your view. I think we photographer over analyze every lens to the minutest detail...yet I highly doubt any of those details are noticed in prints. A great image will always be viewed a great image no matter what shape the bokeh balls are.

And I totally agree with your view of sunstars...not my cup of tea as they usually take away focus from the subject to this bright spot in the image.

Jul 08, 2019 at 05:35 PM

drew.a
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I'm not bothered by the cat's eye bokeh at all (otherwise I probably wouldn't shoot with fast 135s). I think it can actually work well to frame the subject when the subject is relatively centered. I do pay attention to the smoothness of the bokeh (no onion ring) as I think that's a pretty significant contributor to "busy" bokeh, which can get pretty distracting.
That said, I'm definitely not going to complain if Sony attempts to eliminate this where it's reasonably feasible. There's no question the 85GM renders very nicely.

Jul 08, 2019 at 06:33 PM

hiepphotog
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

freaklikeme wrote:
I think you're talking about two different problems; optical vignetting, which creates the cats eye bokeh, and FC, which changes the appearance of depth of focus around the long edges. I don't care much about either when it comes to general purpose lenses, since it's easy enough to shoot around either of the problems. I do care about them when it comes to lenses designed for close-focus/macro.

The more constricted opening toward the corners, which also creates the cat's eye shape, effectively increases the DOF toward the corners as well. It is a similar concept with the increased DOF in a lens with apodization element.

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Surfnsun wrote:
I’ve always preferred a smooth OOF background in my own photography. The shape of the bokeh balls hasn’t ever been a concern or problem for myself or any photos I’ve shared with friends & family. To be honest, I’ve always found sunstars far more distracting than the shape of the bokeh balls in the background. I just accept that a busy background creates busy bokeh. Cat-eyes or round or whatever. I’m more concerned with my subject. I just try and consider my backgrounds when it’s convenient to do so; otherwise I just don’t worry about it.

Just like other element in a picture, I definitely agree that anything overused would look distracting. Sunstars work well with a single sun in the picture, though I have never specifically looked for the well defined one. But a night shot with all those street lights, they will stick out too much for my liking.

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drew.a wrote:
I'm not bothered by the cat's eye bokeh at all (otherwise I probably wouldn't shoot with fast 135s). I think it can actually work well to frame the subject when the subject is relatively centered. I do pay attention to the smoothness of the bokeh (no onion ring) as I think that's a pretty significant contributor to "busy" bokeh, which can get pretty distracting.
That said, I'm definitely not going to complain if Sony attempts to eliminate this where it's reasonably feasible. There's no question the 85GM renders very nicely.

Yup, I do like a smooth bokeh, instead of those more "character" one with outlining and jittery look. In the end, bokeh shouldn't compete with the main subject.

Jul 08, 2019 at 07:45 PM

Activatedfx
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I love bokeh balls and enjoy images that are exclusively bokeh balls.

Jul 08, 2019 at 09:29 PM

GMPhotography
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

Well interesting comments but this is what it is all about and that’s the rendering. I won’t sacrifice any of that in this regards to bad bokeh or cats eyes on lenses where i certainly don’t want to see it. So for my money I want the best regardless. It’s pretty obvious with my collection , none of them let me down here Sony 24, Rokinon 85 , Sony 135. Jury still out on the Sigma 35 1.4 since I just got it but I do remember the lens going back to my Nikon days. On the MF side I have the CV 50 1.2 and raising money for the CV 21 1.4 now. But I’m a Pro and not known to cut corners and I’m pretty much a perfectionist. So these are my choices. Love it or not, it’s my money, my work , my career.

In truth onion rings drive me up the wall more than anything followed by cats eye. I actually try to avoid all of this by moving around if I can.

Edited on Jul 08, 2019 at 10:02 PM · View previous versions

Jul 08, 2019 at 09:41 PM

phototiimo
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I absolutely hate cat eyes in my bokeh with a passion. They distract from the subject and usually look awful, imo.

Jul 08, 2019 at 09:44 PM

GMPhotography
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

phototiimo wrote:
I absolutely hate cat eyes in my bokeh with a passion. They distract from the subject and usually look awful, imo.

I agree it’s like the worst very distracting. It’s like ice water on a open nerve in your mouth. Just painful.

Jul 08, 2019 at 10:00 PM

lbloom
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

Don't mind cat's eye truncation or swirl (at all), character is good depending on the character.

Perfectly evenly exposed frames with gaussian blur is kinda boring to me.

Jul 09, 2019 at 12:24 AM

phototiimo
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I would say that if your photos seem boring to you if you're not shooting with a lens that has obvious "character" traits like cat eyes or busy bokeh or swirl or whatever, then you may have some more work to do on your photos. Not directing that at anyone in particular, it just seems like you should rely on your talents as a photographer to make a great image more than you rely on your gear. Character lenses have their place and can be very useful for conveying a certain feel or message in a photo, but I certainly wouldn't want to shoot with one full time.

Jul 09, 2019 at 01:29 AM

freaklikeme
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

hiepphotog wrote:
The more constricted opening toward the corners, which also creates the cat's eye shape, effectively increases the DOF toward the corners as well. It is a similar concept with the increased DOF in a lens with apodization element.

Interesting. What further reading would you suggest for someone who's interested in learning more?

Jul 09, 2019 at 02:27 AM

realVivek
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

I suspect that it is a conjecture rather than a “concept”.

Canon published a short essay on the RF 85’s and in that they point out that there is an increased DOF with an APD element.

freaklikeme wrote:
Interesting. What further reading would you suggest for someone who's interested in learning more?

Jul 09, 2019 at 04:08 AM

hiepphotog
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

freaklikeme wrote:
Interesting. What further reading would you suggest for someone who's interested in learning more?

Unfortunately there is no formal text or journal's article on this but few people tried to explain using the same concept of optical vignetting and cat's eye bokeh (pic below). The increased depth of field can be seen if you study a picture carefully.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gabriel_Taubin/publication/220795278/figure/fig1/AS:305382653218821@1449820306395/Illustration-of-optical-vignetting-From-left-to-right-a-reference-image-at-f-56-b.png

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realVivek wrote:
I suspect that it is a conjecture rather than a “concept”.

Canon published a short essay on the RF 85’s and in that they point out that there is an increased DOF with an APD element.

People theorized about it before Canon publicly stated it, so I would say it's more than a conjecture. I first came across this reading DavidBM's review of the Sony STF.

Of course I would like to know how much of an increase we would see and, in the case of apodization, whether the average DOF increase is the same as the T-stop increase, or less.

Jul 09, 2019 at 09:17 AM

tntcorp
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Cat's eye bokeh, DOF and your preference

i disliked bohek, balls, cat's eyes. or anything in between! Thus, i shoot completely at f/8 and above to minimize the bokeh effect! :')

sorry, just had to throw it out there..

Jul 09, 2019 at 10:07 AM

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