Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
  

Archive 2019 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7

  
 
Lee Saxon
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


So, I haven't done a lot of this, and I only had one sample of each lens, so take it for what it's costing you. But I think this is pretty interesting. If you look at the Left Mid-Corner, you can see some (but not a lot!) smearing impact making the Z7+M worse than the Z7+R [by the way, I also did D850+R; the results were identical to Z7+R]. But if you look at the Right Extreme Corner, it seems the far corner performance of the M lens is enough better than the much older R that it actually allows the Z7+M to pull a little ahead!

The older R lens also has a little more distortion than the M, although I know you can't really see that here.

The S1r was clearly the loser, which I think was a real blunder for the L-Alliance. M-compatibility would've been a great niche for them to target.












May 22, 2019 at 07:37 AM
Peter Figen
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


How much do those corners improve when stopped down to 5.6 or 8? I occasionally use the Elmarit-R II on my 5DSR and almost sold it to my attorney but reconsidered after shooting another test with it and realizing just what a wonderful lens it is.


May 22, 2019 at 10:42 AM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


Lee Saxon wrote:
So, I haven't done a lot of this, and I only had one sample of each lens, so take it for what it's costing you. But I think this is pretty interesting. If you look at the Left Mid-Corner, you can see some (but not a lot!) smearing impact making the Z7+M worse than the Z7+R [by the way, I also did D850+R; the results were identical to Z7+R]. But if you look at the Right Extreme Corner, it seems the far corner performance of the M lens is enough better than the much older R that it actually
...Show more

Thanks Lee that is really useful. It is clear the Panasonic cameras aren't going to play well with Leica M. I wonder what that will even mean for Leica L. I am guessing at this point that the Leica SL II will have just a bit better performance with the new Leica SL glass than the Panasonic. It looks like the L mount alliance didn't specify sensor cover glass thickness (as the SL from early reports seems to do better here than the Panny S1r). A bit of a blunder if you ask me, but it does let Leica protect their prices.



May 22, 2019 at 11:21 AM
zhangyue
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


Very useful information. Thanks for doing this. Lee.

Some information I'd like to know:

First I also want to know how they perform after f8 or f11. Are the results acceptable on S.
2nd, what adapter you used for these comparison. Have you checked that if infinity mark on lens barrel was correct to make sure correct flange distance. I have verified that it play quite significant role in rangefinder glass performance.



May 22, 2019 at 02:04 PM
imagesfromobjects
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


Just recently picked up the v1 ASPH Elmarit 28mm, mostly for film use. Although, pixel peeping aside, it does plenty well on a7S. Not seeing smearing except for in the very extreme corners and you really have to know what to look for. Some cyan and vignetting for sure, but it more than makes up for these deficits in sharpness, contrast and tone. Not to mention size, weight and handling. Could be due to the pixel pitch etc, but I'm actually pleasantly surprised. I read Jim Kasson's blog posts about this combo and he was pretty harsh about it. I respect his work a great deal, but this is one instance where I don't share the experience he had with it.

I'd post sample pics but I'm too broke right now to renew my FM membership whoops.






May 22, 2019 at 03:41 PM
AcuteShadows
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


These results are all unacceptable for the price point of a Leica lens, even a used one. The current Summicron 2/28 works well on the Z series. So there is a rather complex set of causes for these results, not just sensor thickness. I would not discount any camera for using M lenses, including the Panasonic S series, based on the results of a very limited number of lenses.


May 22, 2019 at 05:16 PM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


AcuteShadows wrote:
These results are all unacceptable for the price point of a Leica lens, even a used one. The current Summicron 2/28 works well on the Z series. So there is a rather complex set of causes for these results, not just sensor thickness. I would not discount any camera for using M lenses, including the Panasonic S series, based on the results of a very limited number of lenses.


There are a lot of articles about M lenses on Sony cameras posted on the Lens Rentals blog by lens designers. It isn't all that complex. Sensor cover thickness and exit pupil length explain most of the differences and the remainder occur at apertures faster than f/2. It of course also matter what sensor thickness (including zero if the lens was designed for film) that the lens was designed for. The latest sum micron 28 f/2 was specifically reformulated for a thicker sensor cover as the original was formulated for film. The 28 f/2.8 Asph has an especially short exit pupil so it is no surprise it has more problems than most other M lenses.



May 22, 2019 at 05:39 PM
mapgraphs
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


Lee Saxon wrote:
So, I haven't done a lot of this, and I only had one sample of each lens, so take it for what it's costing you. But I think this is pretty interesting..


Thanks for putting this together Lee.
My take on the comparisons is that the 28 M is probably somewhat decentered, on the left side. Also, the point-of-focus looks slightly different between the S and Z samples. I've found that matching distant point-of-focus using different bodies can be problematic. If off, even slight differences can potentially skew the results.

Just curious, is the adapter shimmed? From my own comparisons (a variety of other M lenses), results can be more definitive as the infinity hard stop gets closer to spec.






May 22, 2019 at 06:33 PM
rico
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


Wide open, the extreme corners of my ver.1 Elmarit-M ASPH also sharpen impressively versus the midfield—probably due to mechanical vignetting—but can't nearly justify use on my Z6.


May 22, 2019 at 06:41 PM
AcuteShadows
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


Steve Spencer wrote:
There are a lot of articles about M lenses on Sony cameras posted on the Lens Rentals blog by lens designers. It isn't all that complex. Sensor cover thickness and exit pupil length explain most of the differences and the remainder occur at apertures faster than f/2. It of course also matter what sensor thickness (including zero if the lens was designed for film) that the lens was designed for. The latest sum micron 28 f/2 was specifically reformulated for a thicker sensor cover as the original was formulated for film. The 28 f/2.8 Asph has an especially short
...Show more

Angle of incidence is certainly a major factor. Unfortunately, I don't know the exit pupil distances of the different Leica lenses. But what appears to be somewhat random may well follow a well defined pattern that you can establish once you have the data.



May 22, 2019 at 06:54 PM
AcuteShadows
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


Here are some results for the Elmarit 28mm ASPH on the Sony a7S. https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/leica-28mm-f2-8-elmarit-on-the-sony-a7s/


May 22, 2019 at 06:57 PM
imagesfromobjects
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


Yes, I referenced that in my post. Jim knows his stuff but I think real-world use of the a7S + Elmarit 28mm Asph isn't given enough credit. I surely wouldn't pay $xxxx for a lens with those quirks if it were designed for Sony specifically, but as an adapted lens it holds its own.

This is based on a couple short weeks of use, but I'd ruled it out for any use other than on film prior to using it, based solely on Internet reports. After using it for 2 weeks, it's earned a place. The compromises are there, but it's not total crap.

AcuteShadows wrote:
Here are some results for the Elmarit 28mm ASPH on the Sony a7S. https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/leica-28mm-f2-8-elmarit-on-the-sony-a7s/




May 22, 2019 at 07:32 PM
imagesfromobjects
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


The literature accompanying the lens states that the v1 Elmarit Asph *was* formulated for digital as well as film. I believe the optical formula is the same for v2, it's only the hood that's different.

I'm also certain that they meant *Leica* digital.

Steve Spencer wrote:
There are a lot of articles about M lenses on Sony cameras posted on the Lens Rentals blog by lens designers. It isn't all that complex. Sensor cover thickness and exit pupil length explain most of the differences and the remainder occur at apertures faster than f/2. It of course also matter what sensor thickness (including zero if the lens was designed for film) that the lens was designed for. The latest sum micron 28 f/2 was specifically reformulated for a thicker sensor cover as the original was formulated for film. The 28 f/2.8 Asph has an especially short
...Show more



May 22, 2019 at 07:36 PM
Taylor Sherman
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


The optical formula for v2 is different. Lens positions were adjusted to account for field curvature with thicker cover glass.


May 22, 2019 at 07:46 PM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


imagesfromobjects wrote:
The literature accompanying the lens states that the v1 Elmarit Asph *was* formulated for digital as well as film. I believe the optical formula is the same for v2, it's only the hood that's different.

I'm also certain that they meant *Leica* digital.



I have heard people say that, but the lens was first introduce in 2006 the same year as the M8 which has a super thin sensor cover glass (.5 mm) and it is not at all clear what designed for digital meant at that point. It might have meant they designed for that very thin cover glass or simply that the focal length was a good choice for that camera where it is a 35mm FF equivalent. In any event it could not be designed for the thicker cover glass of even today's Leica Ms let alone other mirrorless cameras.



May 22, 2019 at 07:52 PM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


Taylor Sherman wrote:
The optical formula for v2 is different. Lens positions were adjusted to account for field curvature with thicker cover glass.


Yes, I understood that to be the case.



May 22, 2019 at 07:53 PM
imagesfromobjects
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7



Source? Not arguing, but I haven't been able to find anything solid.

Taylor Sherman wrote:
The optical formula for v2 is different. Lens positions were adjusted to account for field curvature with thicker cover glass.




May 22, 2019 at 07:54 PM
RexGig0
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


Timely discussion; thanks to all.


May 22, 2019 at 08:24 PM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


imagesfromobjects wrote:
Source? Not arguing, but I haven't been able to find anything solid.



Here is a test at PC magazine that shows better performance with the second version:

https://www.pcmag.com/review/364548/leica-elmarit-m-28mm-f-2-8-asph



May 22, 2019 at 08:30 PM
imagesfromobjects
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 28 Elmarit-M ASPH II & Elmarit-R II on S1r & Z7


Ok, grab some salt, but here's the verbatim text from the paper manual:

"The LEICA ELMARIT-M f/2.8 ASPH is the first Leica M lens whose performance is optimized for the specific requirements of both analog and digital photography"

It goes on (and on) to mention the smaller (18x27) format of the m8, low vignetting (on said format, presumably) and that the "major effect of the aspherical surface of the last lens element is to minimize curvature of field, coma and distortion."



May 22, 2019 at 08:42 PM
1
       2       end




FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.