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Archive 2018 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM

  
 
SoundHound
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Naturephoto1’s comments are correct but are really viable for bright light. The 400GM is up to 2 stops faster with, consequent, DOF isolation. The AF system is superb even in low light.

Also, the use of an APS C sensor (with its 40% of FF area) means an ISO hit of up to 1.5 stops (most crop sensor files suffer from in camera noise reduction at the highest ISOs).



Nov 05, 2018 at 10:23 AM
mitesh
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Joshua,

Wonderful examples and a very balanced, practical write up! I think you have made a very logical decision based on your requirements and experience. You have limited your downside financial risk by buying a used lens at an attractive price, while still giving yourself plenty of operational capability and time to see how Sony's future offerings pan out. Like you, I pre-ordered the Sony 400 GM lens, but after a lot of internal debate, I canceled. Over the course of dozens of PMs with a few other FMers, including @arbitrage, I actually made some of the same arguments as you did in support of choosing a Canon 600/4 II. In the end, curiously enough, I changed my mind again and decided to go with the Sony 400 GM. Maybe I'm writing this post partly as therapy for myself, as I clearly need help .

As background, I owned and shot with a Canon 300/2.8, 600/4, 200-400/4, and 800/5.6, as well as a Sigma 500/4. Looking back through my LR catalog from 2013 to 2016, nearly 90% of my wildlife images were shot between 400mm and 800mm. I enjoyed having the ability to reach out to 1120mm and 1600mm with extenders, but I think I only have a handful of shots at those FLs that I have even looked at twice. So, from a focal length perspective, I knew that 800mm was enough to cover my needs.

I never would have considered a 400/2.8 lens as my main lens, simply because I've always thought it is a relatively short focal length for wildlife photography. However, the ability of the Sony extenders working in conjunction with the latest bodies to maintain image quality and a high level of autofocus performance really changes the equation. The Sony 400 GM, when paired with extenders, offers a 560/4 and 800/5.6 with less degradation in image quality or AF performance than any other manufacturer's combos. That means I could get a lens built natively for the Sony FE MILC platform that 1) offers me the fastest available aperture at the focal lengths I use most, 2) weighs significantly less than any available 400/2.8, 600/4, or 800/5.6, and 3) would be much more compact than what I previously used:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-6hGCd2Q/0/O/i-6hGCd2Q.png

(the Sony combo above would be slightly longer than pictured, as a 2x extender would be needed to make it equivalent to the Canon combo).

Like many, I was reasonably satisfied with the performance of EF lenses adapted to the a9. Geoff and I shot with the Sigma 500/4 paired with the a9 quite a bit this past spring in Florida. The performance got even better with FW updates. I don't know how it could be quantified, but the native AF is generally going to outperform adapted AF. In bright light, I don't know that I could tell a difference just shooting stationary targets in my yard. In dim light and longer FLs, there is a definite difference, and that would probably be magnified with moving subjects. Not to mention that Sony's new telephoto lenses (100-400 GM and 400 GM) allow you to shoot the a9 at full 20 FPS, and also utilize the new dual XD linear motors, which are supposed to drive AF faster (could be very important maintaining continuous focus in between frames, which is more challenging when shooting 20 FPS).

The ease of transporting and handling the Sony 400 GM compared to a 600mm or 800mm lens can't be ignored. I still am amazed every time I pick up the a9 + 400 GM. I can fit it into a backpack, whereas I couldn't fit a 1DX + 800mm mounted into any backpack that I owned.

Given the options available today for hobbyists, I think we can all agree that the 400 GM represents the typical "paying thousands more for the last 5% of performance". For those who want a long, fast prime but don't want to deal with adapted lenses, it's either this lens or wait. I think this lens paired with the 100-400 GM is a superb combo for nature and wildlife photographers. Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind when the 500/600 GM are announced .



Nov 05, 2018 at 11:25 AM
AGeoJO
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


SoundHound wrote:
As to the value of these combos each person will have to use their own judgement. I have the A9 camera and both MC11 and MBV. I have many of the Canon Great Whites (200/300/400/600). The adapted AF is moderate speed with some hunting in low light. Not really the best for fast action.

I have a Sony 400GM from the first batch. My first tests indicate the 400GM has extra IQ and AF speed when compared to my Great Whites (of various vintages). This is even true with the Sony 2.0 TC mounted. So if 800mm F5.6 is long enough
...Show more

I have no doubt that the Sony 400mm f/2.8 GM would AF better under challenging lighting conditions. But for my wildlife purposes, the adapted Canon lens is plenty fast and will do fine there as a few other FMers and I have discovered. I am not sure whether you updated the FW of your MC-11 or not. And again, the AF improvement is noticeable with my 400mm DO Mark II, 400mm f/2.8 Mark II and 600mm f/4 Mark II. I am not sure how the Mark I lenses perform. I understood that you have a varying versions of those lenses.



Nov 05, 2018 at 11:30 AM
AGeoJO
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


naturephoto1 wrote:
Let us wait and see if Sony does in fact come out with this new APS-C camera with the features and capabilities of the A9, higher resolution, size of about the first generation A7/A7r cameras, and IBIS. If so, then maybe many of us can rely on that camera with our 100-400 GM lenses with the Sony 1.4X teleconverter that produces the equivalent to 840mm at f8. And if the camera would work well with the Sony 2X teleconverter at f11 and be equivalent to 1200mm and offer excellent tracking and AF capabilities...That would be a very small and light
...Show more

Yes, a new body designed more for wildlife shooters, please, Sony, please. Either the A7000 or A9r will do with a slight preference for the A9r for me.



Nov 05, 2018 at 12:15 PM
psharvic
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Thanks for the work that you put into this, Joshua.


Nov 05, 2018 at 12:19 PM
AGeoJO
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


arbitrage wrote:
Great shots from the field test Joshua....always best IMO to get out there and just shoot the gear for a day or two to really solidify in your own mind how it is working for you. Did you do any comparisons to the native 100-400GM while out there?

I agree that with the latest A9 and Sigma updates that the adapted Canon glass is getting really good. Yesterday afternoon I spent an hour or so in the backyard shooting native 100-400GM, adapted 400DOII (with 2xTC on it) and adapted Nikon 300PF (with 2xTC and bare), just to get an idea of
...Show more

Geoff, thank you for your insightful response. Too bad, I was too focused on the 600mm lens and I didn't bring my GM 100-400mm with me on both days.

I hear you loud and clear about needing to carry/use lighter gear. On the day I received the 600mm lens and played with it, it felt bulky and heavy but today on the 5th day, the weight doesn't feel that bad anymore . Obviously, I need to work out some more . Fortunately, I still had some accessories from back then, and I changed the center of gravity by using a low profile replacement foot and a few others thing to make the handling of that lens better. It looks that I am now entrenched in the first group you described with the acquisition of this lens and I am happy with my decision, all things considered, even my age .

I have a non-photographic roller bag I took with me to CR and other places when I carried my 400mm lens. That bag is very lightweight but sturdy, the size is just perfect for the 600mm lens and it doesn't give away the content. I am a happy camper in that respect. Locally, I am using a TT Glass Limo to carry that lens by itself in a backpack and use various TT pouches in a belt.

Yes, I am in a holding pattern for either the next long lens or better yet, for a new body designed more for wildlife shooters. Either the A7000 or A9r will do with a slight preference for the A9 for me.

Edited on Nov 05, 2018 at 01:07 PM · View previous versions



Nov 05, 2018 at 01:00 PM
ruhikant
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Nice write-up Joshua. I am not sure about the Nikon folks but for me, it was very clear the only reason to leave my perfectly capable canon 1DX II paired with Ef500/4IS II ( 700/5.6 and 1000/8) and moved to A9 was to capture something that 1DXII could not do well ( at least for me). It does not make sense for me to use adapted lenses except the financial constraints. But the good news is that the canon Ef500 adapted to A9 works even better than 1DxII in some specific circumstances (see image below), and I don't have to worry about AF micro-adjust anymore. For now, I will use Sony 100-400 GM with extenders for close range actions in the good light, bare canon EF 500/4 in a low light situation and with extenders in long range and with slow-flying birds.
Ruhikant








Nov 05, 2018 at 01:03 PM
AGeoJO
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


mitesh wrote:
Joshua,

Wonderful examples and a very balanced, practical write up! I think you have made a very logical decision based on your requirements and experience. You have limited your downside financial risk by buying a used lens at an attractive price, while still giving yourself plenty of operational capability and time to see how Sony's future offerings pan out. Like you, I pre-ordered the Sony 400 GM lens, but after a lot of internal debate, I canceled. Over the course of dozens of PMs with a few other FMers, including @arbitrage@, I actually made some of the same arguments as you
...Show more


Mitesh, thank you for stopping by and for your keen feedback! Obviously, we have had similar and fairly long history of our lens selection although I never bothered with the 200-400mm zoom.

After I could repeat the AF results following the FW upgrade using my 400mm lens, I felt encouraged with the move to the 600mm. Yes, the AF works better if the lighting conditions are good but from what I could tell, it wasn't too shabby either if they were not ideal; I didn't encounter any issues so far during my limited usage. Now, the actual usage in the next several weeks locally and in Bosque in January will tell whether my decision is sound or less so .

No question about the weight difference and the footprint between the two lenses. In addition, we still have to add the adapter, too, going the adaption route. You are absolutely correct, describing the case as "paying thousands more for the last 5% of performance". That scenario has come up more than just a few times, at least in my head.

I will be using the 600mm more for reach and in the case of the bare lens, for the resolution, going for "more details in the feather", so to speak. I will also pair that up with the GM 100-400mm just in case the AF of the adapted lens rears its ugly head and when a native lens would come in handy. And yes, that GM lens with one or the other Sony TC could help me out if push comes to shove in the AF department . My CR trips were quite successful although my gear back then was a tad less effective in the AF department. I am convinced that the 600mm will do even better now after the FW upgrade and now with a little more reach without any TC. We haven't done anything yet and it is more in the planing stage but a trip to CR and/or Ecuador or Pantanal is feasible next year.

Both of us, you and I, reserve the right to change our mind as this is a fairly rapidly changing AF world we live in . Cheers!



Nov 05, 2018 at 03:32 PM
Chris_88
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Nice write-up and great , Joshua. Sorry for being late to the party. Threads like these are dangerous in numerous ways .

I still have my wildlife feet in Nikon land at this point, but I'll admit I'm not 100% satisfied with the 500 PF. It's a great lens on the D500 and getting 700mm f8 in such a portable package is pretty amazing. However, having only f8 available with the 1.4x TC still bugs me, when I'm shooting in the shade, as shutter speeds drop. If the 400 GM was more readily available, I might have done something stupid by now, but as it stands, I'm waiting to see whether Sony finally announces that long rumored a7000 camera and gives us any hints as to whether and when they will be releasing other long GM lenses.

Like Mitesh, I had initially dismissed the 400 2.8 as too short (in terms of FL) and too heavy (which isn't an issue with the newest lenses anymore). However, looking at Alex's shots, the 400 GM seems to take even the 2x TC extremely well, giving you an 800 5.6. With a crop body version of the a9 you could get the equivalent of 1200mm. Of course, a 500 4 GM weighing 2.4 kg would be even better.



Nov 05, 2018 at 04:43 PM
AGeoJO
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


psharvic wrote:
Thanks for the work that you put into this, Joshua.


Vic, thank you for stopping by.



ruhikant wrote:
Nice write-up Joshua. I am not sure about the Nikon folks but for me, it was very clear the only reason to leave my perfectly capable canon 1DX II paired with Ef500/4IS II ( 700/5.6 and 1000/8) and moved to A9 was to capture something that 1DXII could not do well ( at least for me). It does not make sense for me to use adapted lenses except the financial constraints. But the good news is that the canon Ef500 adapted to A9 works even better than 1DxII in some specific circumstances (see image below), and I don't have to
...Show more

Thank you, Ruhikant! That's one heck of an image you posted there. We will see how smooth the path for adapting that we have decided to take. I considered getting the 500mm Mark II as well but for a little more, I went for the 600mm. Since you have had your 500mm Mark II lens already, it made perfect sense to you to keep on using that lens.



Nov 05, 2018 at 05:30 PM
genji
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


What a fascinating thread! Although I can recall photographing only one bird myself (a seagull sitting on a fence taken with a 50/1.4 lens), I very much enjoy seeing the bird pictures that frequently appear in the FE Images thread. Joshua’s posts and the contributions of other members have given me a much better understanding of the technical issues that must be resolved in order to produce the consistently excellent images that I’ve come to admire. In particular, arbitrage’s explanation of the three tele “segments” clarified the various tradeoffs that must be made. A sincere thank you to all who have participated.

(P.S. the Mandarin duck has now eclipsed the puffin as my favourite bird.)



Nov 05, 2018 at 07:39 PM
AGeoJO
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Chris_88 wrote:
Nice write-up and great , Joshua. Sorry for being late to the party. Threads like these are dangerous in numerous ways .

I still have my wildlife feet in Nikon land at this point, but I'll admit I'm not 100% satisfied with the 500 PF. It's a great lens on the D500 and getting 700mm f8 in such a portable package is pretty amazing. However, having only f8 available with the 1.4x TC still bugs me, when I'm shooting in the shade, as shutter speeds drop. If the 400 GM was more readily available, I might have done something stupid by
...Show more

Chris,
Thank you for stopping by and your comment.

The 400mm GM can handle TCs, especially the 1.4X TC really well. The optical degradation is minimal, Regardless, how well though, the optical performance will decrease more so with the 2X TC. We have seen this optical pattern across brands. The decrease maybe less than a similar setup on the CaNikon camp but nonetheless, it will decrease. There is no free lunch, well, almost .

I am convinced that sometime in 2019 or maybe early 2020 Sony will be showing us another long lens that maybe suitable for us that enjoy wildlife photography. Yes, I am all for a light 500mm f/4 GM lens, lighter than Canon 500mm f/4 Mark II. I am willing to sacrifice the reach for a smaller, lighter and better AF lens than what I will be using in the next year or two.




Nov 05, 2018 at 09:15 PM
bvphotos
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


AGeoJO wrote:
I am convinced that sometime in 2019 or maybe early 2020 Sony will be showing us another long lens that maybe suitable for us that enjoy wildlife photography. Yes, I am all for a light 500mm f/4 GM lens, lighter than Canon 500mm f/4 Mark II. I am willing to sacrifice the reach for a smaller, lighter and better AF lens than what I will be using in the next year or two.


A 500mm f4 GM at the weight of the Canon 400mm f4 DO II would be fabulous!



Nov 05, 2018 at 11:30 PM
Chris_88
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


AGeoJO wrote:
Chris,
Thank you for stopping by and your comment.

The 400mm GM can handle TCs, especially the 1.4X TC really well. The optical degradation is minimal, Regardless, how well though, the optical performance will decrease more so with the 2X TC. We have seen this optical pattern across brands. The decrease maybe less than a similar setup on the CaNikon camp but nonetheless, it will decrease. There is no free lunch, well, almost .

I am convinced that sometime in 2019 or maybe early 2020 Sony will be showing us another long lens that maybe suitable for us that enjoy wildlife photography. Yes,
...Show more

Joshua, sure, there will be degradation, but from brief personal experience with the 400 DO II and the 2x TC over in Canon land, I sure didn't see it, at least on a lower pixel sensor. It might be more evident on a 42/45MP sensor, but from what I've seen, the 2x TC's at least from Sony and Canon have definitely become very, very usable with newer lenses and cameras. I will admit every time Geoff or Robert post one of their shots with that combo, I'm still baffled at how well even the 100-400 GM takes that 2x TC.

In the end, we all have to make compromises regarding cost, weight and/or reach. I totally get why you went for that 600 II. If I had found a similar deal, I might have gone for it too, as the reach and performance are hard to argue with. However, like Geoff, I like to wander around lens in hand quite a bit, and lifting 3.8 kg lens is probably too much for my aching back.

I do hope that Sony gets the next big white out of the door faster than the 400 2.8. It would be nice, if they could release 2-3 more big whites within the next two years, as the Olympics draw closer.



Nov 06, 2018 at 08:07 AM
arbitrage
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


bvphotos wrote:
A 500mm f4 GM at the weight of the Canon 400mm f4 DO II would be fabulous!


Yes it would, yes it would....I'd think the weight of the Canon 300 f/2.8 IS II would be the best we would see but who knows....I still can't believe the weights of the Sony/Canon 400/2.8 and the Canon 600/4 so maybe 400DOII weight is possible



Nov 06, 2018 at 08:21 AM
AGeoJO
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


genji wrote:
What a fascinating thread! Although I can recall photographing only one bird myself (a seagull sitting on a fence taken with a 50/1.4 lens), I very much enjoy seeing the bird pictures that frequently appear in the FE Images thread. Joshua’s posts and the contributions of other members have given me a much better understanding of the technical issues that must be resolved in order to produce the consistently excellent images that I’ve come to admire. In particular, arbitrage’s explanation of the three tele “segments” clarified the various tradeoffs that must be made. A sincere thank you to all who
...Show more

Jonathon, thank you for stopping by and for your comment. I am glad that you found the thread fascinating.



bvphotos wrote:
A 500mm f4 GM at the weight of the Canon 400mm f4 DO II would be fabulous!


Yes, yes, yes!



Nov 06, 2018 at 09:03 AM
Alex Phan
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Joshua, go to Riverdale Park in Anaheim, point up your 600IS ii with TC combo to chase the nighthawk at dawn.. come back, look at the result, your neck, your arm...and tell me if you still think that canon combo still the best. :d




Nov 07, 2018 at 09:57 AM
kimknapp
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Alex Phan wrote:
Joshua, go to Riverdale Park in Anaheim, point up your 600IS ii with TC combo to chase the nighthawk at dawn.. come back, look at the result, your neck, your arm...and tell me if you still think that canon combo still the best. :d


Alex, how do you feel about the 400GM f2.8 in that situation?




Nov 07, 2018 at 10:23 AM
AGeoJO
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Chris_88 wrote:
Joshua, sure, there will be degradation, but from brief personal experience with the 400 DO II and the 2x TC over in Canon land, I sure didn't see it, at least on a lower pixel sensor. It might be more evident on a 42/45MP sensor, but from what I've seen, the 2x TC's at least from Sony and Canon have definitely become very, very usable with newer lenses and cameras. I will admit every time Geoff or Robert post one of their shots with that combo, I'm still baffled at how well even the 100-400 GM takes that 2x TC.
...Show more

Hi Chris, I agree with you that the degradation is not bad and it seems even less so in the case of both Sony TCs. For more portable and easier handling, I will be resorting to my Canon 400mm f/4 DO Mark II that I know is another superb performer. And yes, we will see what Sony will release next before the 2020 Olympics.



Alex Phan wrote:
Joshua, go to Riverdale Park in Anaheim, point up your 600IS ii with TC combo to chase the nighthawk at dawn.. come back, look at the result, your neck, your arm...and tell me if you still think that canon combo still the best. :d

Hi Alex, I don't do that even with the 400mm f/2.8 GM anyway, not at my age, for sure. That's the difference between you and me; our needs, goals and ways to get there are not the same. I am more for birding using a camera support as I mentioned here previously. With that said, I am convinced that the AF performance of the 400mm GM is superb but for what I do, I am pleased with how this setup allows me to get.



Nov 07, 2018 at 10:30 AM
kimknapp
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Joshua,
Which of the two Canon's focuses better (faster, more accurate), the 400 DO with 1.4 TC or the 600?
How much sharper is the 600 over the 400 DO w/ TC?

Kim



Nov 07, 2018 at 01:53 PM
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