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Archive 2018 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM

  
 
AGeoJO
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


I started using my long Canon lenses that I adapted to my Sony bodies when Sony incorporated PDAF in the A7r II for wildlife. However, the AF performance was a mixed bag; great for perched birds and less so for birds in flight. I noticed that my longer but slower lens back then, the Canon 600mm f/4 was lagging behind the faster f/2.8 and shorter 400mm lens. I figured, it was time for me to give up my wildlife photography using Sony mirrorless bodies. I sold the 600mm lens, a beefy tripod plus gimbal head, etc. and just use my 400mm with TC as needed. While I got great results from perched birds or hovering hummingbirds in Costa Rica, the BIF images somewhere else suffered. I even tried a Nikon D500mm with a 200-500mm lens for that purpose for about a month but I couldn’t warm up to the setup.

So, when Sony announced the GM 400mm f/2.8, I jumped at the opportunity of pre-ordering that lens. A month or so before it became available, I got the notification from the Pro Imaging group to give them my order number so it could be prioritized. I did that and I felt confident that I would be in the first group that would receive that lens. For some unknown reasons, the retailer skipped my order and when the second batch was to be delivered I was traveling. Actually, some other retailers had that lens readily available but somehow I didn’t feel like pursuing it at that time. That pause gave me some time to think about the merit of having just another 400mm lens as the longest FL. I looked up my my images and I noticed that some 80% of my images I took with TC, either the 1.4X or 2X TC. And the ones with just the bare lens, ended up being cropped, So, that reenforced the aspect I already knew, I actually needed a longer lens than 400mm for wildlife.

I noticed previously that the AF performance of the bare Canon 400mm lens on both Metabones and Sigma MC-11 was actually quite good but that FL is awfully too short for my needs. The addition of just a 1.4X TC took a toll on the AF performance. The latest FW update of the Sigma MC-11 seemed to be more responsive enough to enable those long Canon lenses could be suitable for BIF, at least for larger birds, especially on the A9. The thought of getting the Canon 600mm crept back up in my mind since the need for TC would be less critical at that FL.

Concurrently, I noticed that the price of those Canon long lenses have tanked. Canon has announce a Mark III version of the 400mm f/2.8 and 600mm f/4. I remembered the optical performance of the 600mm Mark II was outstanding but yet, apparently, a lot folks have decided to upgrade to the latest and the slightly lighter weight although the price difference is quite significant. For whatever reasons there maybe, more than the typical number of the 600mm Mark II lenses was offered for sale lately and I ended up buying one of them .

I did the evaluation in the last 2 days. No, it wasn't a lens test and I didn’t care about its centering either . I used it straight for real-life images and I did so in two “sections”. First more for the optical performance for mostly perched or slowly swimming/floating water fowls. I mostly used my A7r III here and the A9 was used for the AF performance of BIFs. At times, I added a 1.4X TC or even a 2X TC on the lens in my optical evaluation but I didn’t bother with the 2X TC for the AF. Alex Phan commented that a Sigma 1.4X TC performs slightly better than the Canon version for whatever reasons. Maybe it has to do with the fact that my adapter of choice is the Sigma MC-11 that somehow provides a more seamless compatibility. Metabones V is a viable option and it can be used to get the reach even further with an array of Canon and Sony FE TCs but I didn’t bother with Metabones here. I did notice that the AF acquisition seemed to hesitate slightly with the Canon 1.4X Mark III in a few cases but the Sigma TC-1401 didn’t seem to show that. The difference seems to be very slight but since a fraction of a second may count and I really would like to get as much as AF performance as feasible, I will be using Sigma 1.4X TC. I couldn’t tell any difference between the Canon 2X Mark III and the Sigma 2X but I noticed a decrease in AF performance using the 2X TC relative to using the 1.4X. The AF still works using either TC on both the A7r III and A9 but I will resort to that for more “must have” images of perched birds rather than for BIF. The image quality is excellent at 1200mm however.

Optical performance:
My main target for the optical performance is a male Mandarin duck. To get a more pleasing perspective I spread the legs of my tripod all the way and close to the ground. I used the monitor of the A7r III to focus and compose. It is definitely more convenient to do so than using a DSLR where you have to peer through the optical viewfinder all the time. Since the Zone AF is not available with this setup (a drawback relative to the Sony A9), I used a Large Selectable AF all the time and target the eye. The duck did swim sideways, of course, and a gimbal head helped me track that movement more conveniently. I shot for approximately 2 hours that morning. I would say that the A7r III didn’t have any problem doing this task at all. Out of approximately 250 images or so and the keeper rate for the AF was about 90%. Of course, the actual keeper rate is quite a bit less. I would say I got about 12-14 images or so that are presentable. I also used the Sigma TC-1401 at times and it did seem to be responsive in acquiring the initial focus. I am attaching a few images and some crops documenting the optical performance of the lens on the Sony A7r III and A9.



© AGeoJO 2018

Some cropping from original for presentation purposes - with Sigma TC-1401





© AGeoJO 2018

Cropped for details





© AGeoJO 2018

Some cropping from original for presentation purposes - bare lens





© AGeoJO 2018

Cropped for details





© AGeoJO 2018

Some cropping from original for presentation purposes





© AGeoJO 2018

Some cropping from original for presentation purposes - with Sigma TC-1401





© AGeoJO 2018

Some cropping from original for presentation purposes




Nov 04, 2018 at 10:42 AM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


AF performance:
I went to a local wildlife sanctuary with the intention of evaluating the AF performance yesterday. I used the Zone AF mode on the A9 and I set the drive to just the lowly 5 fps. I don’t feel like going through hundreds of images for this purpose. Since I prefer more mobility here but I could not afford to handhold the lens anymore, I ended up using a monopod with an RRS monopod head. The composition suffered a bit and was not as tight as with a gimbal head but it wasn’t bad. It was fairly early in the morning and the lighting conditions were good for the the flock of Canada geese and better for the white pelicans. There were water fowls there that, judging by their distance from my position, could be used to add to the optical performance evaluation of the Mandarin duck.

During the dry run in my backyard, the AF zipped from varying distances really fast. It was almost instantaneous and my impression was darn close to a native performance judging by my experience of using the GM 100-400mm lens, I would say. So, I had high expectations from this adapted setup. Now, let’s get down to the nitty gritty - I was pleased how well the combo performed under real-life conditions for BIF. It acquired focus, tracked focus of varying flying birds out there from pelicans to cormorants to Canada geese. In total, I took some 10 continuous BIF of varying species but documenting only 2 here. Granted these are fairly large birds and about the same size as sandhill cranes, eagles or ospreys. I realize that owls, falcons, etc. will be more challenging; they are smaller and faster birds and their flight pattern while hunting is more erratic. However, I didn’t have any issues with my bare 400mm lens even back then during the previous season; just too short. With the latest FW upgrade, however, I am confident that it could pull off capturing slightly smaller/faster birds as well but that remains to be seen until later. So, my findings here are not final.

What is my current keeper percentage, you may ask. Well, it depends also on various external circumstances such as how many cups of coffee did I have that morning . I did manage getting some 85-90% for strictly AF. Of course, as always, composition, slight movement from not using a gimbal head, too slow of shutter speed etc. lowered the actual keeper rate by quite a bit. Actually, there was a sequence of a pelican that banked and changed the direction flying away from me, showing its rear end. Under normal circumstance, I would stop right away but yesterday, I kept on shooting to see how well it tracked birds flying away from me and I am happy with the results. The images posted here were cropped, adjusted for minor contrast and exposure in LR only.


The bottom line here - I still put it at “almost” native since I could not compare that with the Sony 400mm f/2.8 GM lens. I don’t have any current top class Canon body like the 1Dx II to compare it with the A9. The above explanation is the long version but in essence, I have given up on the Sony 400mm f/2.8 lens although I know that the AF of that lens is superb. The combination of the two factors, better AF performance of adapted lenses, nearing that of a native lens and the opportunity to buy a great lens of the focal length of my choice at a reduced price, makes me go this route for the time being. I can wait and see what Sony will come up with as the second long lens in 2019. In the meantime, I will happily continue my wildlife photography using my adapted long Canon lens or lenses. Now, Sony, bring on the A9r soon, please then I would be a happy camper.




© AGeoJO 2018





© AGeoJO 2018





© AGeoJO 2018





© AGeoJO 2018





© AGeoJO 2018





© AGeoJO 2018





© AGeoJO 2018





© AGeoJO 2018




Nov 04, 2018 at 10:50 AM
mcbroomf
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Thanks Joshua and lovely shots as usual.
Did you use the Sigma TC because you find it better than Canon's?

Thx



Nov 04, 2018 at 10:52 AM
shac
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Thanks for this Joshua - a very useful explanation and summary.
Excellent images too of course



Nov 04, 2018 at 10:53 AM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


mcbroomf wrote:
Thanks Joshua and lovely shots as usual.
Did you use the Sigma TC because you find it better than Canon's?

Thx


Thank you, Mike! Yes, it seems that the Sigma TC shows less hesitation in acquiring focus. To what extent it is true, I am not sure since it was not scientifically done. Tracking seems to be on the same level between Sigma and Canon. Optically, I couldn't tell the difference between the two either. So, in the spirit of trying to max it out, I am using the Sigma at this point. You know that circumstances can change fast with FW updates, mostly for the better but I have seen it went backwards.



Nov 04, 2018 at 10:58 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Hi Joshua,

Excellent work.

You didn't try the lens with the Sony 1.4X and/or the 2X teleconverters?

Rich



Nov 04, 2018 at 11:12 AM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


shac wrote:
Thanks for this Joshua - a very useful explanation and summary.
Excellent images too of course


Thank you, shac!



naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Joshua,

Excellent work.

You didn't try the lens with the Sony 1.4X and/or the 2X teleconverters?

Rich


Thank you, Rich! No, because the MC-11 doesn't allow any of the Sony FE TC to be mounted in the rear between the adapter and camera. And the needed adapter has to be Canon mount.



Nov 04, 2018 at 11:15 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


AGeoJO wrote:
Thank you, shac!


Thank you, Rich! No, because the MC-11 doesn't allow any of the Sony FE TC to be mounted in the rear between the adapter and camera. And the needed adapter has to be Canon mount.


Hi Joshua,

How were you mounting the Sony teleconverters when you were using the Canon 400mm f2.8 lens?

Rich



Nov 04, 2018 at 11:25 AM
birdied
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Excellent results Joshua !!!

Birdie



Nov 04, 2018 at 11:30 AM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Joshua,

How were you mounting the Sony teleconverters when you were using the Canon 400mm f2.8 lens?

Rich


Rich, the combo of using Canon and Sony TCs is possible only using the Metabones V. The rear throat of that particular adapter is large enough to accept the protruding part of the Sony TC to be mounted. Too bad the Sigma MC-11 is not compatible with that.



Nov 04, 2018 at 11:35 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


AGeoJO wrote:
Rich, the combo of using Canon and Sony TCs is possible only using the Metabones V. The rear throat of that particular adapter is large enough to accept the protruding part of the Sony TC to be mounted. Too bad the Sigma MC-11 is not compatible with that.


Hi Joshua,

Thanks. Gotcha.

Rich




Nov 04, 2018 at 11:43 AM
kimknapp
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Thanks Joshua! Beautiful shots!

Just curious, it sounds like you took some shots using the 2.0 TC, too. If you were to compare the 2.0 image vs. a resized 1.4 image (using Photoshop, for example), which ends up being sharper/better? When I tried this with a rental Sony 2.0 vs. my 1.4, and the 100-400GM, the 1.4 resized actually looked better.

It seems like 840 mm with the A7Riii for stationary birds and the A9 for BIF is sweet, that's for sure.

Not a big deal, but I noticed that you did not list the TC in the shots of the Canada geese.



Nov 04, 2018 at 11:58 AM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


kimknapp wrote:
Thanks Joshua! Beautiful shots!

Just curious, it sounds like you took some shots using the 2.0 TC, too. If you were to compare the 2.0 image vs. a resized 1.4 image (using Photoshop, for example), which ends up being sharper/better? When I tried this with a rental Sony 2.0 vs. my 1.4, and the 100-400GM, the 1.4 resized actually looked better.

It seems like 840 mm with the A7Riii for stationary birds and the A9 for BIF is sweet, that's for sure.

Not a big deal, but I noticed that you did not list the TC in the shots of the Canada
...Show more


Kim,
Thank you very much! I don't know the answer to your first point. The reason is, I was dealing with a real and moving target in the last 2 days. So, I couldn't do that comparison, which required more controlled conditions. I may want to do that later using a sturdy tripod with a stationary target. I will report my findings later.

Yes, you are correct about me leaving out the TC for the Canada geese. And yes, I used a Sigma TC for those and no problem for the combo. The size of Canada geese and their flight pattern are similar to the sandies at Bosque. So, I am set with my gear selection for Bosque .

Talking about leaving out; there was another situation that I did not mention above. To minimize hunting, I make a habit of setting on the focusing limiter selection on the lens when I know I would be shooting at fairly far away distances. I did that in the beginning at that wildlife sanctuary. I saw of flock of brown pelican flying towards me but overhead. The sky was the background and I figured, it would be a piece of cake. Everything went find and I saw the PDAF flickering on those birds. But lo and behold, I noticed actually while shooting, that the last 3 or 4 images that they were completely out of focus. I was puzzled for a second but then I realized the focusing limiter was set between 16m and infinity . And those pelican were definitely closer than 16mm or some 50 feet from me flying overhead. I switched that limiter off right after that. FYI, the MFD of that lens is 4.5m.



Nov 04, 2018 at 12:15 PM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


birdied wrote:
Excellent results Joshua !!!

Birdie


Thank you very much, Birdie!



Nov 04, 2018 at 12:55 PM
bvphotos
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Joshua, don't you think the approximate 1kg difference between the 600 II and the EF 400 2.8 III/FE 400 2.8/EF 600 III is significant in real-world situations when you're in steamy tropical jungles where every additional ounce weighs a pound? The newer lenses are almost hand-holdable, aren't they? On the other hand, the difference in price between a used 600 II and the newer EF and FE models is over $4K, not something to sneeze at.


Nov 04, 2018 at 07:52 PM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


bvphotos wrote:
Joshua, don't you think the approximate 1kg difference between the 600 II and the EF 400 2.8 III/FE 400 2.8/EF 600 III is significant in real-world situations when you're in steamy tropical jungles where every additional ounce weighs a pound? The newer lenses are almost hand-holdable, aren't they? On the other hand, the difference in price between a used 600 II and the newer EF and FE models is over $4K, not something to sneeze at.



Thanks for stopping by and for your comment! I do believe that the difference in weight of some 2 pounds is worth it for sure for some folks but I am not at all interested in getting the Canon 600mm Mark III. The weight difference indeed may make it handhold able for some younger folks but not for me anymore . I do have to rely on some kind of support for that big and long lens in the form of at least a monopod. It is that bad that I feel more comfortable getting some kind of support even for my FE 100-400mm GM lens at the long end, depending on the lighting conditions. But I make a habit of doing that to get tack sharp images anyway.

If I would buy a brand new 600mm lens then it would be the Sony FE version. The price, well, let's not talk about the price yet, just the mere announcement of that lens is unknown at this point. FYI, the price difference between the new price of the Canon Mark III and a used but mint Mark II version is more like almost like half or almost $7K. Definitely not chump change. I will take a wait-and-see stand on the next long Sony FE lens.



Nov 04, 2018 at 08:19 PM
bvphotos
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Joshua, I'm going to contradict what I said earlier.

I guess when you're on hours-long hikes, the almost hand-holdable new lenses don't become all that hand-holdable. So if you're going to carry a monopod/tripod anyway, then what's a difference of 1kg if you can save a few thousand $?



Nov 04, 2018 at 11:50 PM
SoundHound
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


As to the value of these combos each person will have to use their own judgement. I have the A9 camera and both MC11 and MBV. I have many of the Canon Great Whites (200/300/400/600). The adapted AF is moderate speed with some hunting in low light. Not really the best for fast action.

I have a Sony 400GM from the first batch. My first tests indicate the 400GM has extra IQ and AF speed when compared to my Great Whites (of various vintages). This is even true with the Sony 2.0 TC mounted. So if 800mm F5.6 is long enough for you the 400GM will so the job and it is, currently, the lightest extant.



Nov 05, 2018 at 02:38 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


SoundHound wrote:
As to the value of these combos each person will have to use their own judgement. I have the A9 camera and both MC11 and MBV. I have many of the Canon Great Whites (200/300/400/600). The adapted AF is moderate speed with some hunting in low light. Not really the best for fast action.

I have a Sony 400GM from the first batch. My first tests indicate the 400GM has extra IQ and AF speed when compared to my Great Whites (of various vintages). This is even true with the Sony 2.0 TC mounted. So if 800mm F5.6 is long enough
...Show more

Let us wait and see if Sony does in fact come out with this new APS-C camera with the features and capabilities of the A9, higher resolution, size of about the first generation A7/A7r cameras, and IBIS. If so, then maybe many of us can rely on that camera with our 100-400 GM lenses with the Sony 1.4X teleconverter that produces the equivalent to 840mm at f8. And if the camera would work well with the Sony 2X teleconverter at f11 and be equivalent to 1200mm and offer excellent tracking and AF capabilities...That would be a very small and light package.

Rich

Edited on Nov 05, 2018 at 10:22 AM · View previous versions



Nov 05, 2018 at 08:06 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Wildlife lens selection and why not the 400mm GM


Great shots from the field test Joshua....always best IMO to get out there and just shoot the gear for a day or two to really solidify in your own mind how it is working for you. Did you do any comparisons to the native 100-400GM while out there?

I agree that with the latest A9 and Sigma updates that the adapted Canon glass is getting really good. Yesterday afternoon I spent an hour or so in the backyard shooting native 100-400GM, adapted 400DOII (with 2xTC on it) and adapted Nikon 300PF (with 2xTC and bare), just to get an idea of where all these things stack up against each other.
As I think is fairly common knowledge, the Nikon adaption is the poorest and other lenses don't work at all (my 500E and 500PF) but the 300PF is useable, especially without TC on it. As with all adapted lenses it seems like the big focus shifts from near to far and especially far to near are where the system lags behind native glass.
The Nikon shows this big time and usually needs some MF assist to get it in the zone and then the AF can take over and track really well.
The 400DOII/2xTCIII (stressing the adaption to the max) is a lot better than the Nikon.....it rarely needs a little MF help to move big differences. And if you don't do any MF help it will get there slowly whereas the Nikon sometimes just won't no matter how long you hold down the AF-ON button.

Because I was in my backyard, I had a perch setup around feeders and a more distant forest where birds would show up also. One thing that worked really well yesterday was I set the perch focus distant on the lens so that I could just turn the wheel and it would snap right back to the perch. As I recall this didn't actually work on earlier Sigma FW versions....probably changed in the FW that gave us all the AF modes but I never tested it for a long time. I know it didn't work many, many months ago when I first started adapting. That can make those big far to near focus changes nearly instant and then you can go from there.

But still compared to the native GM lens, the adapted lenses just aren't quite as reliable in fast developing situations. In shooting birds like ducks and oystercatchers coming towards the camera I found that the AF just couldn't engage the bird as it was getting closer unless I'd managed to get it tracking from a ways a way. With the native 100-400GM (+/- 1.4TC) you could snap on a bird late in the game as it was getting very close with good technique and a pump or two of the AF-ON button. The adapted 400DOII (+/- 1.4TC) would rarely be able to do this. The native 100-400GM with 2xTC isn't great at this either. So as you mention it does come down to what subjects you are after.

A side benefit I've noticed from adapting Canon and now Nikon to the A9 is that I finally get to see consistently in my shots the full potential of the lens' IQ. Only once you have shot a MILC (with good AF) against the DSLRs do you really see how much AF inconsistency (micro focus shifts) there are in DSLR images from shot to shot that are always slightly ruining every few shots. Compared to the A9 where you usually get just perfectly focused consistent shots one after the other. I had to do a lot of complicated MFA testing to get my 300PF/2xTC to get sharp shots on D850....just stick it on the A9 and it shows the full on IQ right off the bat.....really nice!! Of course the shot to shot inconsistency of DSLR depends on the body...some like 7D2 were horrible for this, others like the new Nikons and Canon 1 series were much, much better....still the A9 bests them by far without using the mirror and separate AF sensor.

Finally, a discussion of focal lengths, weights, TCs and overall super-tele lens selection.....
Each of us has to decide what focal lengths suit us best and how comfortable we are with a given systems' TCs to get to certain lengths vs going for a longer/bigger/heavier lens to get a certain length/aperture native without TCs.
I view the super tele lineups in 3 segments:
1) The 800/5.6 segment: this is the longest/widest aperture and I view this as the 400/2.8, 600/4, 800/5.6 trio of lenses....they all can get you to the goal of 800/5.6 (yes the 600 gets slightly more) but they all use differing amounts of TCs to get one there and you give up some versatility along the way by giving up lower and brighter focal lengths
2) The 500/4 segment....sort of on its own in the middle ground
3) The 600/5.6 segment: this is the 300/2.8, 400/4, (560/600 f/5.6) lenses....so far there is no real native 560/600 f/5.6 and only Canon has the 400/4 so it is a bit of an odd segment but one I have used a lot over the years.

And of course each of these segments can be pushed to f/8 combos to get things like 1120, 1200, 1000, 800 when you opt for the longer end of the segments instead of the f/2.8 shorter ends.

The 600/4 was my go to bird lens for many years...basically since I started doing this bird stuff in 2010 and got the lens on release in 2012. I prefer to do as much of my bird photography handheld but certainly when the situation is right I will use support...basically when I'm setup at one particular location (like an estuary for owls, or eagles in Haines etc)...no reason to tax oneself if not needed. But for a lot of what I do I like to roam and look for birds and in those situations handholding is a necessity for me. Also for any fast BIF I lose too many shots with tripod based shooting (and even monopod).

I also place a certain value on how easy I can pack a lens to take on an airplane to a far away destination....with weight limits being removed from N.American carry-ons it really is more of a size issue these days but of course lugging one's backpack through airports means weight is an important consideration also.

I've been moving to smaller, lighter lenses and the 600/4, 800/5.6 size just isn't for me anymore so as you know I sold my 600II just a short while ago before prices dropped even further. However, with the shorter length of a 400/2.8 and the much lighter weight of the newest Sony and Canon ones, it is looking like a more viable option to stay in the "800/5.6" category I mention above. The question for me is can I make 800mm as my max focal length work and my answer is only if I have a more dense sensor like A7R3, A7000, A9R....then I'm fine with it....on only an A9 it won't cover everything I want to shoot.

So for now I'm in holding pattern also, will shoot the 400DOII as needed, 100-400GM as needed and keep my 500E FL on the D850 for the "reach" with up to 1000mm on a high density sensor. I won't consider another 600/4 lens even if Sony make a 600GM that matches 600III weight but I will consider 500GM lens if it gets weight down even more from current Can/Nik versions. OR I will consider 400GM if Sony give me A7000 or A9R.....time will tell.....




Nov 05, 2018 at 10:00 AM
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