Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              53      
54
       55       56       57       end
  

In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera

  
 
philip_pj
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #1 · p.54 #1 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


Prototyping never reaches the market with an array of test reviewers, very expensive pre-launch fanfare, website production, listings in the world's most prestigious outlets - none of it happens in the ordinary course of events. Then, it's not a typical camera so the spectre of technological failure looks far more likely as an explanation.

Gamble big on the latest tech and you risk a hard crash. Misread your market and become Nokia. Zeiss made their first camera in almost two decades and, instead of producing a superior quality Sony/Fuji form factor with 2-3 great lenses (on any mount), they went for a high risk move and failed spectacularly - as many here predicted at the time - in Sept 2018.

'Sales of camera lenses have irreversibly shrunk to a niche market..'

But it's their niche! Even in CY days, many CZ lens releases sold less than 10,000 units each, while Canon amassed sales totals of over 100 million lenses, just in EF. As the imaging users at the bottom and middle take the easy option and phone it in, the enthusiast market hardens and clarifies - each new release from the existing makers is given due attention, and former mainstream producers have moved to broaden the market sector: Sigma, Samyang and others.

The M sector is going gangbusters, as further proof of the emergence of a very different and healthy forward-looking market. And for a company serving ultra niche sectors like cine it smells like sour grapes.

And even then they are wrong, as camera sales have stabilised at levels roughly the same as those in the 1990s. It was good enough for them then..but now it's 'irreversible', and this is coming from a niche producer even in the best of their times. The signs were there if you remember - they always said they were only making four (then five) Loxias 'to help Sony'.

As to their being enough Zeiss lenses in the world already, please. Optics are moving very fast these last few years, and CZ are missing the opportunities being grasped by CV, Sigma and Leica. Few photographers are rejecting these great new age lenses because they believe they already have that need covered by Zeiss lenses.

Exactly the opposite is true - people want updated high end lenses with more focus on size, weight and optical excellence. But Zeiss gave the world ugly 1000 gram plus monster lenses like Otus and Milvus primes.

It was another sign they were chronically out of touch and misread the emerging market entirely - ironically enough by focusing on a prosumer sector using MF lenses, the very epitome of 'niche' (e.g. Ming Thein, Lloyd), when partner Sony was leading the way for enthusiasts. How many Milvus images are shot with new age EVF cameras? New management might see them back in the game at some stage, but their silence speaks volumes for their well-deserved plight as yesterday's heroes.



Oct 01, 2021 at 05:02 PM
AcuteShadows
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #2 · p.54 #2 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


chez wrote:
A good strategy is to test out new ideas or technology in a segment of your business that is not critical to the company. If it fails, nothing is hurt, but maybe some valuable r&d was achieved that can the applied to other parts of your business. This happens all the time…especially in technical companies.


There is not much basic technology in the ZX1 that was (a) developed by Zeiss and (b) would be helpful in some other business segment. So I think the reason for the ZX1 are one of two things:

(a) To manage the downscaling of the consumer lens division and give technicians a pet project before they receive pensions

(b) To explore whether this could be a successful new market.



Oct 01, 2021 at 05:25 PM
AcuteShadows
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #3 · p.54 #3 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


philip_pj wrote:
Prototyping never reaches the market with an array of test reviewers, very expensive pre-launch fanfare, website production, listings in the world's most prestigious outlets - none of it happens in the ordinary course of events. Then, it's not a typical camera so the spectre of technological failure looks far more likely as an explanation.

Gamble big on the latest tech and you risk a hard crash. Misread your market and become Nokia. Zeiss made their first camera in almost two decades and, instead of producing a superior quality Sony/Fuji form factor with 2-3 great lenses (on any mount), they went
...Show more

* Milvus and Otus are not ugly. Only if you try to put them on a pocket camera.

* There is no way to achieve a vivid bokeh without a sufficiently large front lens.

* For autofocus, the focus group needs to be small. There is no such restriction for manual focus.

* Milvus lenses easily outresolve the Z7 40+ MP sensor, there are just not many lenses that do this.

* EVF is very helpful for manual focusing in many situations. I hope the Z9 will have improved balance and a special sensor protection mechanism to keep it dust-free.

* Irreversible does not mean it will necessarily shrink further.



Oct 01, 2021 at 05:33 PM
LBJ2
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #4 · p.54 #4 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


Interesting read IMO and maybe a different way to think about the Zeiss ZX1 project...

"What Must Camera Manufacturers Do to Challenge the Smartphone?" -Mike Smith

"Is there a manufacturer willing to step up and take the risk?

The Future?
The professional photographer is not going anywhere: you will always need top-end shooters for top-end jobs. Where money is to be made is in being able to manufacture middle-tier cameras at scale, targeting the conspicuous consumer who has money to spend and can see value in a device that couples quality hardware with post-production. What manufacturers seem to be doing is chasing after a dwindling pool of high-end users with upgrades coming from doing the same thing better rather than an innovative step-change. Zeiss should be applauded for the Z1 as it indicates a direction of travel but let's not kid ourselves that it is anything other than a test product to see if it could be production manufactured and whether users would purchase it. We've been here before and it didn't work. Is there a manufacturer willing to step up and take the risk? One thing for sure, there isn't a huge amount of money being made in-camera sales at the moment but something needs to give. Let's hope it's innovation rather than implosion."

https://fstoppers.com/gear/what-must-camera-manufacturers-challenge-smartphone-581510



Oct 07, 2021 at 01:58 PM
genji
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.54 #5 · p.54 #5 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


LBJ2 wrote:
…let's not kid ourselves that [the ZX1]] is anything other than a test product to see if it could be production manufactured and whether users would purchase it.


We have definitive answers to both questions: the ZZ1 can be production manufactured and users have little to no interest in purchasing it.



Oct 07, 2021 at 02:46 PM
Kalainen
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.54 #6 · p.54 #6 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


LBJ2 wrote:
Interesting read IMO and maybe a different way to think about the Zeiss ZX1 project...

"What Must Camera Manufacturers Do to Challenge the Smartphone?" -Mike Smith

"Is there a manufacturer willing to step up and take the risk?

The Future?
The professional photographer is not going anywhere: you will always need top-end shooters for top-end jobs. Where money is to be made is in being able to manufacture middle-tier cameras at scale, targeting the conspicuous consumer who has money to spend and can see value in a device that couples quality hardware with post-production. What manufacturers seem to be doing is chasing after a We've been here before and it didn't work. Is there a manufacturer willing to step up and take the risk? One thing for sure, there isn't a huge amount of money being made in-camera sales at the moment but something needs to give. Let's hope it's innovation rather than implosion."

https://fstoppers.com/gear/what-must-camera-manufacturers-challenge-smartphone-581510
...Show more

Yep, the ZX1 is easily the most interesting camera release for a long time- because it re-imagines the camera again. Sony is often described to be innovative, and sure their mirrorless full frame -concept has been great and successful, but in the long run it looks like all the innovative power is pretty much based on their sensor tech - so in essence Sony is just doing the same thing again but just better, yawn.. I would say that currently Canon is more innovative as their they are exploring the borders of current known product concepts and coming up new ones, like the small 600mm f/11 lenses, f/2 zooms etc. The ZX1 might not be commercially successful, but intellectually it is far more interesting. I'm sure when all the cloud-stuff, android based systems, computational stuff and in-camera-editing are put together into a familiar package that even the average Joe can recognize and sold in super markets, it will be applauded as the greatest innovation by the masses..


Oct 07, 2021 at 03:08 PM
LBJ2
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #7 · p.54 #7 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


genji wrote:
We have definitive answers to both questions: the ZZ1 can be production manufactured and users have little to no interest in purchasing it.


Writing on the wall so-to-speak. But is this the end of the ZX1 story...



Oct 07, 2021 at 03:16 PM
chez
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.54 #8 · p.54 #8 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


genji wrote:
We have definitive answers to both questions: the ZZ1 can be production manufactured and users have little to no interest in purchasing it.


Sort of reminds me of the old Next computer and the Lisa computer, both initial flops but look at what came out of them, MacOS and the iMac. If Jobs was scared to fail I wonder how different our world would be today.



Oct 07, 2021 at 03:20 PM
LBJ2
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #9 · p.54 #9 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


Kalainen wrote:
Yep, the ZX1 is easily the most interesting camera release for a long time- because it re-imagines the camera again. Sony is often described to be innovative, and sure their mirrorless full frame -concept has been great and successful, but in the long run it looks like all the innovative power is pretty much based on their sensor tech - so in essence Sony is just doing the same thing again but just better, yawn.. I would say that currently Canon is more innovative as their they are exploring the borders of current known product concepts and coming up new
...Show more

"The ZX1 might not be commercially successful, but intellectually it is far more interesting." Well said, the ZX1 was always in IMO, intellectually very interesting and like the author I do applaud the effort and the tenacity it must have taken to get this thing to market. Clearly there were some struggles.



Oct 07, 2021 at 03:25 PM
tzhang4284
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #10 · p.54 #10 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


genji wrote:
We have definitive answers to both questions: the ZZ1 can be production manufactured and users have little to no interest in purchasing it.


This really sounds like a launch mis-pricing problem.

Zeiss can probably sell it if they dropped the price down to the $3k range. Real issue is they're not a luxury brand like Leica where people are buying for the brand halo and not for tech prowess. At the same time, they don't have the leading edge tech of Sony to appeal to a true gear head. For $6,000, a luxury enthusiast will buy a Leica Q or M camera first while a gear head will buy a Sony A1 or Fuji GFX first. Not many people have another $6k to blow on a second somewhat experimental camera at this price point.

At $3k, I think there's demand where the buy-in isn't as high and it could outcompete options at that price point.



Oct 07, 2021 at 07:34 PM
 


Search in Used Dept. 

Dave Sanders
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #11 · p.54 #11 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


Kalainen wrote:
Yep, the ZX1 is easily the most interesting camera release for a long time- because it re-imagines the camera again. Sony is often described to be innovative, and sure their mirrorless full frame -concept has been great and successful, but in the long run it looks like all the innovative power is pretty much based on their sensor tech - so in essence Sony is just doing the same thing again but just better, yawn.. I would say that currently Canon is more innovative as their they are exploring the borders of current known product concepts and coming up new
...Show more

Uh, so, like, a phone? They're already sold in super markets and applauded as the greatest innovation by the masses...

The problem with the ZX1 is that no one under 40 would ever think it was a re-imagining of anything.



Oct 08, 2021 at 01:46 AM
Kalainen
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.54 #12 · p.54 #12 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


Dave Sanders wrote:
Uh, so, like, a phone? They're already sold in super markets and applauded as the greatest innovation by the masses...

The problem with the ZX1 is that no one under 40 would ever think it was a re-imagining of anything.


Oh no Dave, let's not get to that again as we have wrestled with that already. I get your point, honestly I do; you prefer the phones and their agility - and you want to transfer pics from camera to a phone, I long new innovations for the cameras. I think both points can be justified. It's just that you are pragmatic and I'm idealistic. We could make a supercombo!

-Toni



Oct 08, 2021 at 03:04 AM
Dave Sanders
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #13 · p.54 #13 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


Haha fair enough, let's call it a draw. I long for a company to develop a beautiful, functional app that gets the file from my camera to my phone, effortlessly. Christmas is coming, maybe I'll ask Santa...

Kalainen wrote:
Oh no Dave, let's not get to that again as we have wrestled with that already. I get your point, honestly I do; you prefer the phones and their agility - and you want to transfer pics from camera to a phone, I long new innovations for the cameras. I think both points can be justified. It's just that you are pragmatic and I'm idealistic. We could make a supercombo!

-Toni




Oct 08, 2021 at 09:47 AM
rattymouse
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.54 #14 · p.54 #14 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


genji wrote:
We have definitive answers to both questions: the ZZ1 can be production manufactured and users have little to no interest in purchasing it.





Jan 14, 2022 at 08:09 PM
Chris_88
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.54 #15 · p.54 #15 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


philip_pj wrote:
Prototyping never reaches the market with an array of test reviewers, very expensive pre-launch fanfare, website production, listings in the world's most prestigious outlets - none of it happens in the ordinary course of events. Then, it's not a typical camera so the spectre of technological failure looks far more likely as an explanation.

Gamble big on the latest tech and you risk a hard crash. Misread your market and become Nokia. Zeiss made their first camera in almost two decades and, instead of producing a superior quality Sony/Fuji form factor with 2-3 great lenses (on any mount), they went
...Show more

+1

Add to the above the fact that 1) they initially lost out on sales when the Batis 25 and 85 were still without competition, 2) only offered slightly updated versions of older m-mount designs in the popular 35mm and 50mm FL's, and 3) had to deal with the aperture/AF issues of the Batis 40.

Don't get me wrong, the Loxia 21 remains my favorite wide landscape lens, and the Batis 135 and Loxia 85 (or the 35 1.4 ZM, for that matter) too are nice showcases of what Zeiss is capable of doing. It just always felt like too little, too late. t's a pity that they did misread the market like that. I'm sure they could have carved out their traditional niche, if they had been willing to move more aggressively into the mirrorless market. In their stead, Cosina has done an admirable job of producing plenty of (very) fast, yet compact primes to fill the void left by Zeiss.



Jan 15, 2022 at 10:35 AM
johnvanr
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #16 · p.54 #16 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


I thought from the beginning this camera would fail commercially, but I now find it funny that Leica is lauded for putting quite a bit of in-camera memory in its M11.

On other topics here, Zeiss was never in a hurry on anything or desperately trying to seek market leadership. I’m sure one day they will come with lenses for the new mirror less mounts.

I’m also pretty sure that if Zeiss had really believed the ZX1 would be the beginning of something big, they would have named it a Contax product and marketed it as the revival of that brand.



Jan 15, 2022 at 11:00 AM
lora_to
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.54 #17 · p.54 #17 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


Since this thread is turning into one of those "Zeiss lost their way" threads, might be interesting to know what they're mostly up to these days, besides microscopy/bio-medical, industrial QA and eye-glass optics:



I found these videos quite interesting, semi-conductor manufacturing is about ~30% of Zeiss revenue.The channel has some other info on the company's history but it's mostly semi-conductor related.

A couple interesting things I recently found out about Zeiss:
- the Zeiss foundation (Carl-Zeiss-Stiftung) owns both Zeiss AG and Schott AG (optical glass makers) as Schott was co-founded by Zeiss,
- the Zeiss foundation and thus Zeiss/Schott are set up for long-term economic security for both firms and around social responsibilities for the employees.



Jan 15, 2022 at 12:12 PM
liggy
Online
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #18 · p.54 #18 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


Dave Sanders wrote:
Haha fair enough, let's call it a draw. I long for a company to develop a beautiful, functional app that gets the file from my camera to my phone, effortlessly. Christmas is coming, maybe I'll ask Santa...



Re: getting images from camera to iPhone/ iPad.

In 2014 loved ones, friends and coworkers loved the novelty of seeing images from my X100S while we were out creating memories together.

Fast forward to last month. Both the Fuji and Sony app have sort of worked well enough - at least for JPEGs. Better than nothing.

Last week was my first experience with the Q2 and Fotos App. I had rather low expectations but to my delight the app is great for transferring images and you get the choice of DNG, DNG+JPEG, or thumbnail with more reliable connectivity than Fuji or Sony.

Surprisingly useful!



Jan 15, 2022 at 12:31 PM
Dave Sanders
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.54 #19 · p.54 #19 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


liggy wrote:
Re: getting images from camera to iPhone/ iPad.

In 2014 loved ones, friends and coworkers loved the novelty of seeing images from my X100S while we were out creating memories together.

Fast forward to last month. Both the Fuji and Sony app have sort of worked well enough - at least for JPEGs. Better than nothing.

Last week was my first experience with the Q2 and Fotos App. I had rather low expectations but to my delight the app is great for transferring images and you get the choice of DNG, DNG+JPEG, or thumbnail with more reliable connectivity than Fuji
...Show more

I have always loved the ability to just touch my phone to my Sony and have a JPEG transfer...incredibly useful feature and one of the most used for me. But the inability to get RAWs to my phone without a workaround is annoying.

I've heard that Leica's Fotos app is the best, and even seen some really slick demo videos. If you would have asked me which company was mostly likely to develop a seamless and useful app for transferring photos, I wouldn't have said Leica...

Dave



Jan 15, 2022 at 04:18 PM
genji
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.54 #20 · p.54 #20 · In-Stock: 37MP Zeiss ZX1 full frame camera


liggy wrote:
Re: getting images from camera to iPhone/ iPad.

In 2014 loved ones, friends and coworkers loved the novelty of seeing images from my X100S while we were out creating memories together.

Fast forward to last month. Both the Fuji and Sony app have sort of worked well enough - at least for JPEGs. Better than nothing.

Last week was my first experience with the Q2 and Fotos App. I had rather low expectations but to my delight the app is great for transferring images and you get the choice of DNG, DNG+JPEG, or thumbnail with more reliable connectivity than Fuji
...Show more

---------------------------------------------

Dave Sanders wrote:
I have always loved the ability to just touch my phone to my Sony and have a JPEG transfer...incredibly useful feature and one of the most used for me. But the inability to get RAWs to my phone without a workaround is annoying.

I've heard that Leica's Fotos app is the best, and even seen some really slick demo videos. If you would have asked me which company was mostly likely to develop a seamless and useful app for transferring photos, I wouldn't have said Leica...

Dave


I use Leica and Sony cameras and the Leica Fotos app is vastly superior to Sony’s Imaging Edge: Fotos connects quickly and easily to the camera, maintains a more stable and reliable connection, and allows one to transfer DNGs as well as JPEGs. Imaging Edge is a pathetic joke by comparison.



Jan 15, 2022 at 05:06 PM
1       2       3              53      
54
       55       56       57       end






FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              53      
54
       55       56       57       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.