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Archive 2018 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....

  
 
uhoh7
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


The explosion appears to be finally on us. No longer is Sony the only non-leica FF digital body which can mount the great and small M lenses (or other RF glass).

What really jumped out to me: Nikon Z mount. I can't wait to see M wide angles on this camera. In the long run, Sony is crippled by the narrow E mount, we have known that SL is better, but the super short flange Nikon is the most future proof I've yet seen.

I'm not as up to speed on the new Canon FF mirrorless mount, and where it fits in.

What coverglass each of these makers will use......for M glass it can't be worse than Sony, and logically it should be a lot better, since there is so much concern in Nkon and Canon to get the legacy glass doing well.

Panasonic, Nikon, Canon, what are we thinking our sweet legacy glass is going like the best?

PS not one, Sony, Panny, Nikon, Canon, is taking advantage of FF mirrorless potenial for very small form factor, at least in one body. I'm incredulous that door is wide open 8 years after the introduction of the E mount and the nex-5.



Edited on Sep 23, 2018 at 02:40 PM · View previous versions



Sep 23, 2018 at 02:31 PM
chez
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


uhoh7 wrote:
The explosion appears to be finally on us. No longer is Sony the only non-leica FF digital body which can mount the great and small M lenses (or other RF glass).

What really jumped out to me: Nikon Z mount. I can't wait to see M wide angles on this camera. In the long run, Sony is crippled by the narrow E mount, we have known that SL is better, but the super short flange Nikon is the most future proof I've yet seen.

I'm not as up to speed on the new Canon FF mirrorless mount, and where it fits in.
...Show more

Nikon is concerned about Nikon legacy glass. Canon is concerned about Canon legacy glass. Neither of them give a damn about Leica M glass. Why do you feel M glass will perform better on CaNikon than on Sony?



Sep 23, 2018 at 02:39 PM
uhoh7
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


chez wrote:
Nikon is concerned about Nikon legacy glass. Canon is concerned about Canon legacy glass. Neither of them give a damn about Leica M glass. Why do you feel M glass will perform better on CaNikon than on Sony?


Because of coverglass choices.




Sep 23, 2018 at 02:43 PM
Sauseschritt
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


The thin sensor glas offered for Sony in order to have less issues with Leica M glas will probably soon be offered for Nikon Z and Canon R, too.

Other than that, even the Leica SL isnt as good as the Leica M for adapting Leica M glas, since only the Leica M gets the specifically optimized sensor.

In general my impression is that mirrorless systems rather tend to use thick sensor glas. The advantage is obvious: having any dirt on thick sensor glas hurts the image less in comparison to using thin sensor glas.



Sep 23, 2018 at 02:46 PM
chez
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


uhoh7 wrote:
Because of coverglass choices.



Please elaborate the differences in the sensor cover glass. I haven't seen anything definitive on the cover glass for Nikon or Canon. I know you can replace the Sony cover glass with a thinner version which improves the M glass.




Sep 23, 2018 at 02:50 PM
MAubrey
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


If I remember correctly, according to Lens Rentals Blog, the optical thickness of Canon and Nikon sensor stacks isn't particularly different from Sony's. It certainly isn't thin.


Sep 23, 2018 at 03:15 PM
k-h.a.w
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


Corner smearing of wide angle M lenses (except the WATE) is the problem.
Discoloration was already not a problem with the A7r.2. It also could be removed in post.



Sep 23, 2018 at 03:52 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


MAubrey wrote:
If I remember correctly, according to Lens Rentals Blog, the optical thickness of Canon and Nikon sensor stacks isn't particularly different from Sony's. It certainly isn't thin.


Yes, this is what I remember too. Given Canikon's interest in maintaining extensive legacy compatibility, they'll likely keep similar cover glass thickness. It's also more durable (less likely for users to break while cleaning) and better for IR blocking, which we both know is a Leica M weakness (particularly IR blocking).

IMO, if the Panasonic FF based on Leica L mount rumors are true, it's about the only hope of better M-mount compatibility, assuming similar cover glass thickness to the SL's. But as already mentioned, while the SL is better than Sony at out of the box wide M compatibility, it's still not as good (based on my own tests, too) as an actual M digital camera.

So, you'll probably still be stuck with either sensor glass replacement or use of PCX filters/lenses.



Sep 23, 2018 at 08:13 PM
MAubrey
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


rscheffler wrote:
Yes, this is what I remember too. Given Canikon's interest in maintaining extensive legacy compatibility, they'll likely keep similar cover glass thickness. It's also more durable (less likely for users to break while cleaning) and better for IR blocking, which we both know is a Leica M weakness (particularly IR blocking).

IMO, if the Panasonic FF based on Leica L mount rumors are true, it's about the only hope of better M-mount compatibility, assuming similar cover glass thickness to the SL's. But as already mentioned, while the SL is better than Sony at out of the box wide M compatibility, it's
...Show more

Yep. I just caved, got a second A7rII, and got a UT mod. Best choice I made for MF lenses. I'll be watching Panasonic eagerly, but at least for the time being I won't be making any system changes.



Sep 23, 2018 at 08:27 PM
rico
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


When it comes to my WA Leica lenses, I expect no satisfactory improvement from Canon R or Nikon Z. In particular, the Elmarit 28 ASPH has rapidly diminishing sharpness from the optical axis on a stock A7ii. I'm not willing to reshim, fit PCX elements up front, or pay to have a Kolari mod. C/V is releasing new FE-friendly primes every month and that is my path of least resistance. Pity because the EA28 or 'cron 35 v3 offer perfect balance on an Alpha 7 body. I console myself with 50mm and longer being fully functional. The Elmar 50/2.8 classic never looked better, actually.


Sep 23, 2018 at 09:38 PM
nehemiahphoto
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


rscheffler wrote:
Yes, this is what I remember too. Given Canikon's interest in maintaining extensive legacy compatibility, they'll likely keep similar cover glass thickness. It's also more durable (less likely for users to break while cleaning) and better for IR blocking, which we both know is a Leica M weakness (particularly IR blocking).

IMO, if the Panasonic FF based on Leica L mount rumors are true, it's about the only hope of better M-mount compatibility, assuming similar cover glass thickness to the SL's. But as already mentioned, while the SL is better than Sony at out of the box wide M compatibility, it's
...Show more

How close does the SL mount get to m-mount cameras as far as native performance with m-mount lenses? I am very curious, would love to hear more about your findings and lenses used and such.



Sep 23, 2018 at 10:24 PM
sebboh
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


rscheffler wrote:
Yes, this is what I remember too. Given Canikon's interest in maintaining extensive legacy compatibility, they'll likely keep similar cover glass thickness. It's also more durable (less likely for users to break while cleaning) and better for IR blocking, which we both know is a Leica M weakness (particularly IR blocking).

IMO, if the Panasonic FF based on Leica L mount rumors are true, it's about the only hope of better M-mount compatibility, assuming similar cover glass thickness to the SL's. But as already mentioned, while the SL is better than Sony at out of the box wide M compatibility, it's
...Show more

my memory is that the SL is similar to the m10 in terms of performance with troublesome glass (slightly worse than the m9), is this not the case?




Sep 23, 2018 at 11:25 PM
serhan_
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


From Jono Slack's review:
http://www.slack.co.uk/2015/The_Leica_SL.html

although the edges and corners of the M240 were slightly better than the SL, the results for the SL were hugely better than those from the Sony A7 mark 2. Sadly, I didn’t have a Sony A7r mark 2, but the cover glass is the same thickness as that on the A7, and there is no reason to suppose that the results will be any better than the A7 mark 2.

I will be doing a separate article on the comparisons, Sean Reid has been doing detailed comparisons between M lenses on the SL and on the Leica M240, together with
...Show more

I guess he has not done those comparisons...



Sep 24, 2018 at 08:04 AM
Gary Clennan
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


Here we go again. Desperately trying to find ways to make RF glass work on mirrorless. Maybe corrective filter, maybe cover glass replacement/mod, etc, etc. Just use a Leica body if you want the best performance with Leica glass. Otherwise, there are much better (albeit larger) native mount options with much less headache.


Sep 24, 2018 at 09:03 AM
k-h.a.w
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


Who is selling corrective filters that one just screw on?



Sep 24, 2018 at 09:10 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


Nothing is known yet of exact measures of sensor cover glass thickness in any of the recently announced and to be announced MLC systems of Canon, Nikon, and Panasonic. It is rumored currently that the to be announced Panasonic FF MLC uses the Leica L-mount which would assume that the sensor is optimized to be used with SL glass and therefore also with M glass. This is probably the best hope we can have to use M glass on non-Leica based bodies.

I wouldn't put my bet in for the Canon or Nikon FF MLC bodies - they are most likely optimized for the DSLR glass and might even use thicker cover glass than Sony does (or at least the same thickness).

In case the rumor regarding Panasonic FF MLC is true, I wonder how Leica avoids that loyal customers buy the 50% less expensive Panasonic MLC instead of SL or M10. Or maybe Leica is willing to accept it just to get a bigger market gain from MLC users who then might consider buying SL or M glass. It could be a smart strategy from Leica in this case - I would applaud them for this if the rumor is true.



Sep 24, 2018 at 10:32 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


Gary Clennan wrote:
Here we go again. Desperately trying to find ways to make RF glass work on mirrorless. Maybe corrective filter, maybe cover glass replacement/mod, etc, etc. Just use a Leica body if you want the best performance with Leica glass. Otherwise, there are much better (albeit larger) native mount options with much less headache.


Only reason why this is brought up and gains quite some interest is the outrageously high price tags for Leica digital camera gear. And you currently only get 22 MP FF, too. IMO if Panasonic offers > 42 MP FF sensor resolution, many Leica users will jumping camera ship even if it means using adapters and maybe some minor debits in image quality (pixel peeping). Big question is if the original rumor is even true and Panasonic/Sigma/Leica work together. In a few days or even by tomorrow we will know better.

I admit that I would already own a M10 or SL if the price tag would be in the Sony FF MLC range. Maybe Leica realized that many potential customers of M glass are sitting in the same boat and are not going for the collector item prices.



Sep 24, 2018 at 10:56 AM
uhoh7
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


Gary Clennan wrote:
Here we go again. Desperately trying to find ways to make RF glass work on mirrorless. Maybe corrective filter, maybe cover glass replacement/mod, etc, etc. Just use a Leica body if you want the best performance with Leica glass. Otherwise, there are much better (albeit larger) native mount options with much less headache.


Here we go again, Leicaway or highway

Canikon have forgot more about coverglass than every one else combined. Both have produced models with very thin coverglass. None have ever put such thick filters over full frame as Sony. Does not mean they will get it M-right. But I bet anybody a PayPal six-pack both Eos-R and Z are better with M wides than any Sony A series.



Edited on Sep 24, 2018 at 11:46 AM · View previous versions



Sep 24, 2018 at 11:41 AM
sebboh
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


Gary Clennan wrote:
Here we go again. Desperately trying to find ways to make RF glass work on mirrorless. Maybe corrective filter, maybe cover glass replacement/mod, etc, etc. Just use a Leica body if you want the best performance with Leica glass. Otherwise, there are much better (albeit larger) native mount options with much less headache.


but, but, but i don't like leica bodies and i don't like the big native lenses (or AF for that matter).

there is a reason a (very) small number of people keep hoping somebody will make this work.

i'm actually quite happy with my a7 classic with the kolari UT mod and rangefinder glass, but the camera is slowly dying (one dial nonfunctional) and the new cameras seem to be bloating. i shot it next to an m10 for a week and vastly preferred the a7 for both ergonomics and output. the rangefinder patch is quite compositionally limiting for shooting moving kids and the difference in sensor dynamic range was quite noticeable. the m10 did have better colors and felt nicer in the hand though.



Sep 24, 2018 at 11:44 AM
uhoh7
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · best body (not Leica) for M glass 2018/19.....


sebboh wrote:
there is a reason a (very) small number of people keep hoping somebody will make this work.


Add up everyone who ever bought a M body of any kind. Multiply by 10+. Add gravitas, which taste in M glass implies. You get the force which made the Nex a sensation.

Ultra-compact FF back which shoots any glass is way way overdue. It's the glaring "not available" today. Canikon are taking the bland low-hanging (they think) fruit. The next group, fuji etc, will need to stand out.

That camera you and I have always craved, it will stand out. It will sell like no other FF mirrorless ever has or will.

What killed the M7?



Sep 24, 2018 at 11:51 AM
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