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Archive 2018 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

mcaswell
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

Quick background... I shoot Nikon (D850s / D750s), and although my current setup is working fine one of my goals for this year was to try to begin to dip my toes into mirrorless by adding a basic kit (one body, a lens or two, and a flash) that I could start shooting with during certain times of the event, and eventually switch completely to mirrorless (though if I found I really liked it after a month or two, this complete switch could come this year). I was all set to order a Nikon Z6 or Z7, but the single card slot put the brakes on that. So, now I can either wait a few years for the next Nikon model(s) which hopefully WILL have dual card slots, or begin to transition to another brand... still working on that decision, but in the meantime, I'm moving forward with research.

Sony looks like it hits most of the marks for me (I like Fuji's compact size, but Sony's IQ and AF seem superior). At this point, I'm leaning heavily toward the A9 for this first body, but have not ruled out the A7Riii or A7iii. I should note that for the most part, I don't directly make use of the D850's resolution... I shoot in full raw, but at the beginning of my workflow, I convert to compressed DNGs downsampled to 20mp, and I export my final JPEGs at 12mp. I do, however, extensively shoot in 1.2 crop mode (for instance, if I need a little more "reach" on my 50mm lens), and sometimes crop in post, both of which do utilize that extra resolution to a degree.

Anyway, I am attracted to the A9 mostly because it sounds like its sensor all but eliminates potential banding issues caused by shooting with electronic shutter in funky lighting. I also like the extra dial on the top/left for changing AF and drive modes (do the A7 models offer a quick way to change these, or does it require a trip into menus?). And while the A7Riii's resolution would be somewhat useful to me, it sounds like the A9 and A7iii's AF would be better in low light (not to mention near full-frame coverage). So, I'm weighing those various factors right now.

The problem I'm having is that being wholly unfamiliar with the "language" of Sony and not having the benefit of years of experience with the evolution of the product line. For instance, the issue of the shooting aperture affecting how much light is available for AF is something I'm struggling with... for reception/dancing I do often shoot at f4, so would I have AF problems in a dark-ish reception venue? I guess that's the kind of thing that I just have to try for myself and see, as "dark" can mean different things to different people, as can the definition of acceptable AF performance.

But perhaps the biggest concern is flash. I've seen numerous allusions of how the A9 operates poorly when using flash, but these posts generally don't get into details... for instance, something along the lines of "if you shoot with flash a lot, one of the A7s would be a better choice than the A9". I realize you can't use silent shutter with flash, but aside from that, what makes the A7s superior with regards to shooting with flash?

I would welcome any insight that Sony wedding shooters could offer. Thanks in advance!

Aug 25, 2018 at 08:45 AM

Wanny
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

The flash downside of the A9 is that you have to use the mechanical shutter, which bumps you down to 5 fps. If you need more than that, then go for the A7's.

I personally think that the A9 is the best wedding camera you can buy simply because of the fps, silent shutter that works incredibly, and no banding issues. The upside to the a7iii is less expensive, 10 fps with flash, and better dynamic range.

Aug 25, 2018 at 09:41 AM

mcaswell
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

Ah, ok... so if the main complaint about flash with the A9 is with continuous shooting, that's a non-issue for me. I will take a closer look at the difference in dynamic range.

Also, I should note that if I go with the A9, I'll need two of them, but also will need a third body as a backup, which will either be a A7iii or an A7Riii.

Aug 25, 2018 at 09:57 AM

SoundHound
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

A9=Totally silent, no VF blackout, set exposure by inspection and 5/10/20 fps. 24 mP is plenty.

Aug 25, 2018 at 11:58 AM

PhotoTeacher
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

Wanny wrote:
The flash downside of the A9 is that you have to use the mechanical shutter, which bumps you down to 5 fps. If you need more than that, then go for the A7's.

There must be quite a light show if you are shooting faster than 5fps with all those flashes!

Aug 25, 2018 at 12:17 PM

wenkanzhu
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

a9 is the perfect photojournalism camera and a7riii is best for portraits.

Aug 25, 2018 at 01:13 PM

Frogfish
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

AF and Drive modes can easily be changed by programming to the Fn menu. There is very little reason for me to go into the menu whilst actually shooting.

Note no black out with the A9 in AF-C.

Wedding shooters absolutely love it (Google it).

Not all lenses focus/meter at stopped down aperture. Many open up. I'm sure there's a thread on here somewhere with a list of which do and which don't.

Aug 25, 2018 at 01:52 PM

mcaswell
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

Frogfish wrote:
Not all lenses focus/meter at stopped down aperture. Many open up. I'm sure there's a thread on here somewhere with a list of which do and which don't.

Thanks, I'll look for that... is there a rule of thumb with third party lenses opening up for AF, or does that vary as well? I'm a fan of the Sigma Art primes.

Aug 25, 2018 at 04:24 PM

bwcolor
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

wenkanzhu wrote:
a9 is the perfect photojournalism camera and a7riii is best for portraits.

Good advice, but I question the need for the A7riii's resolution with portraits. Many portraits aren't static and no blackout would be useful, but at last, electronic shutter excludes flash. I wonder if A9ii will remedy this. I think that most high resolution requirements would be met for less with the A7rii.

Aug 25, 2018 at 06:27 PM

sungphoto
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

mcaswell wrote:
Quick background... I shoot Nikon (D850s / D750s), and although my current setup is working fine one of my goals for this year was to try to begin to dip my toes into mirrorless by adding a basic kit (one body, a lens or two, and a flash) that I could start shooting with during certain times of the event, and eventually switch completely to mirrorless (though if I found I really liked it after a month or two, this complete switch could come this year). I was all set to order a Nikon Z6 or Z7, but the single card slot put the brakes on that. So, now I can either wait a few years for the next Nikon model(s) which hopefully WILL have dual card slots, or begin to transition to another brand... still working on that decision, but in the meantime, I'm moving forward with research.

Sony looks like it hits most of the marks for me (I like Fuji's compact size, but Sony's IQ and AF seem superior). At this point, I'm leaning heavily toward the A9 for this first body, but have not ruled out the A7Riii or A7iii. I should note that for the most part, I don't directly make use of the D850's resolution... I shoot in full raw, but at the beginning of my workflow, I convert to compressed DNGs downsampled to 20mp, and I export my final JPEGs at 12mp. I do, however, extensively shoot in 1.2 crop mode (for instance, if I need a little more "reach" on my 50mm lens), and sometimes crop in post, both of which do utilize that extra resolution to a degree.

Anyway, I am attracted to the A9 mostly because it sounds like its sensor all but eliminates potential banding issues caused by shooting with electronic shutter in funky lighting. I also like the extra dial on the top/left for changing AF and drive modes (do the A7 models offer a quick way to change these, or does it require a trip into menus?). And while the A7Riii's resolution would be somewhat useful to me, it sounds like the A9 and A7iii's AF would be better in low light (not to mention near full-frame coverage). So, I'm weighing those various factors right now.

The problem I'm having is that being wholly unfamiliar with the "language" of Sony and not having the benefit of years of experience with the evolution of the product line. For instance, the issue of the shooting aperture affecting how much light is available for AF is something I'm struggling with... for reception/dancing I do often shoot at f4, so would I have AF problems in a dark-ish reception venue? I guess that's the kind of thing that I just have to try for myself and see, as "dark" can mean different things to different people, as can the definition of acceptable AF performance.

But perhaps the biggest concern is flash. I've seen numerous allusions of how the A9 operates poorly when using flash, but these posts generally don't get into details... for instance, something along the lines of "if you shoot with flash a lot, one of the A7s would be a better choice than the A9". I realize you can't use silent shutter with flash, but aside from that, what makes the A7s superior with regards to shooting with flash?

I would welcome any insight that Sony wedding shooters could offer. Thanks in advance!...Show more →

Main thing that you should be aware of in terms of mirrorless cameras in general, is that you won't be able to use the grid type AF beam on your speedlite as an autofocus aid - which I've found to be a pretty big achilles heel for wedding/event shooters that use on-camera speedlite a lot, especially if you're using a slow-ish f2.8 or f4 zoom. I'd suggest renting a flash + body + lens and trying it out for a weekend at a club or something to get a sense of how it performs

Aug 25, 2018 at 07:49 PM

mcaswell
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

sungphoto wrote:
Main thing that you should be aware of in terms of mirrorless cameras in general, is that you won't be able to use the grid type AF beam on your speedlite as an autofocus aid - which I've found to be a pretty big achilles heel for wedding/event shooters that use on-camera speedlite a lot, especially if you're using a slow-ish f2.8 or f4 zoom.

Yes, that is indeed a concern. However, in recent years (since I switched to Godox flashes), I've really tried hard to ween myself off of AF assist, because the pattern those flashes project is so atrocious looking (and only marginally effective compared to to the Canon and Nikon beams). I actually very seldom use it now.

My typical loadout for weddings is a 24-70 (occasionally a 24 1.4) on one D850, and a 50 1.4, 85 1.4, or 70-200 2.8 on another D850. When the crucial reception stuff is over, I'll usually slim down to just one body with the 24-70. However, I'm starting to have some wrist pain, and am leaning towards going back to how I used to shoot when I was Canon, with mostly primes. This would mean keeping both bodies on me throughout the reception, but with lighter glass (and lighter Sony bodies) I think it would end up being a net positive for my wrists vs. the 24-70.

I agree that the more sensible option is to rent, but I think I'm going to go ahead and just buy a small A9 kit, so I can work with it at my leisure, then decide whether to fully dive in (or sell it if not).

Aug 25, 2018 at 09:09 PM

sungphoto
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

mcaswell wrote:
Yes, that is indeed a concern. However, in recent years (since I switched to Godox flashes), I've really tried hard to ween myself off of AF assist, because the pattern those flashes project is so atrocious looking (and only marginally effective compared to to the Canon and Nikon beams). I actually very seldom use it now.

My typical loadout for weddings is a 24-70 (occasionally a 24 1.4) on one D850, and a 50 1.4, 85 1.4, or 70-200 2.8 on another D850. When the crucial reception stuff is over, I'll usually slim down to just one body with the 24-70....Show more →

Yeah though honestly if I were you I'd get the A73 over the A9 if you might resell it - much more limited resale market for the A9 as it's somewhat of a niche camera. If you're using mechanical shutter, the A73 actually has a higher effective frame rate than the A9 - something to think about.

And yes, I agree re the LED light usability as an AF assist. It's so freaking obtrusive as the AF assist from the subject's perspective looks like you're shining a flashlight into their eyeballs - whereas the grid type beam is much less noticeable. The last wedding I shot, I had a SB900 on one body and a Godox tt685-n on the other D850, and I noticed how poorly aligned the AF beam is on the Godox speedlite (and requires a bit of fiddling and fine tuning to get it perfectly aligned) vs the SB900.

My preferred wedding glass approach is the 28 f1.4E and 58 f1.4G on two D850 bodies for the getting ready shots, 24-70G and 70-200E for the formal portraits, ceremony is 58 f1.4G and 105 f1.4E with the 28 f1.4E in reserve depending on the size of the venue, and then back to the 24-70G for the reception and first dance/dance floor party shots.

Having shot weddings with the A7rii plus GM 24-70 f2.8 and godox TT685S, I honestly don't think you're going to notice that big of a difference in terms of wrist fatigue. I found that combo with the Sony actually made my wrists hurt a bit more because the front and top heaviness made me have to use my wrist more to stabilize it.

Aug 26, 2018 at 12:18 PM

mcaswell
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

sungphoto wrote:
Yeah though honestly if I were you I'd get the A73 over the A9 if you might resell it - much more limited resale market for the A9 as it's somewhat of a niche camera. If you're using mechanical shutter, the A73 actually has a higher effective frame rate than the A9 - something to think about.

And yes, I agree re the LED light usability as an AF assist. It's so freaking obtrusive as the AF assist from the subject's perspective looks like you're shining a flashlight into their eyeballs - whereas the grid type beam is much less noticeable....Show more →

Yes, I did consider an A7iii as the first purchase (easier to sell if I abort the switch, but still needed as a third body if I commit). But a few factors pushed me to go ahead and get an A9 now. They're currently on sale ($400 off), and I don't know how much longer that will be the case. I also was able to spend some time today in the store with the A7iii and A7Riii (I'd never even looked through an EVF-equipped camera before... whoa!), which gave me more confidence that I will like shooting with Sony. Lastly, (assuming I move to Sony) I'm still not sure if I want an A7Riii or an A7iii as the third body, need some more time to think about that.

In the meantime, my wedding coming up next weekend is relatively small and uncomplicated, so (after shooting the bulk of it with my Nikon gear), it will be a good opportunity to shoot with the A9 as a second body during the last hour or so. Next two weddings after that one are a few weeks later, both at at a very familiar venue, so if all goes well this weekend I might put the Nikons back in the bag (but still close at hand) midway through those receptions and just shoot Sony.

I agree that there's not a huge weight advantage between the two systems if I am to continue shooting f2.8 zooms, but my plan is to shift back to shooting the second half of receptions with two cameras with primes rather than one camera with a 24-70. I'll still need a 70-200 2.8 for church ceremonies, and I'll likely pick up a 24-70 or 24-105 for outdoor/daylight work, but indoor stuff will all be with primes like I used to shoot before I switched to Nikon. Of course, I don't need to switch to Sony to do that, but I feel ready to make the jump to mirrorless for the other benefits, so this move will coincide with realigning my shooting style to mostly primes vs. mostly zooms.

Aug 26, 2018 at 06:14 PM

sungphoto
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

mcaswell wrote:
Yes, I did consider an A7iii as the first purchase (easier to sell if I abort the switch, but still needed as a third body if I commit). But a few factors pushed me to go ahead and get an A9 now. They're currently on sale ($400 off), and I don't know how much longer that will be the case. I also was able to spend some time today in the store with the A7iii and A7Riii (I'd never even looked through an EVF-equipped camera before... whoa!), which gave me more confidence that I will like shooting with Sony. Lastly,...Show more →

Cool sounds like you've done your research and are going in with your eyes open. Actually just picked up an A7R3 for a very good price on B&S to play around with

Aug 27, 2018 at 11:06 AM

pasblues
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

I know this is a Sony thread but if you were looking for weight advantage, Fuji has more of that. I have three systems and have shot with many over the years besides the ones I have now. I am not married to any of them in particular.

Sony was a big financial rabbit hole for me, though. If you have the money, go for it. But I don't consider the Sonys you are talking about having very much size advantage. Some, but not as much as the Fujis.

Considering the subject matter, most wedding photos aren't going to end up at 20X30s or above, unless people choose one or two portraits - which is easily solvable by only using the big guns for portraits.

The rest of the images will be small or end up in albums...again, small.

The advantage of the small stealth cameras is in minimizing one's presence and thereby getting more real reactions from people who notice the photographer less.

As for the A9's fps rate, I really can't see that making much difference - once you get past 8fps, 11fps, one might as well be shooting video - with the exception being high-speed sports. Most pros like you are going to be relying on moment-anticipation rather than machine-gun'n'hope.

I got the Fujis because after decades of shooting, my wrists were too fragile to stand up to 8 hour shoots. Sony does great work. Fuji is fine also. I'm not going to get into the pixel war. But the main reason for getting the A7R3 was the ability to crop in and still retain resolution.

To me, the Sony lenses are stellar. But...so are Nikon lenses...and Canon lenses...and Fuji lenses (when you buy the top of the line).

Take whatever I'm saying with a grain of salt, though, because I'm a shooter coming from the days of the 70s-80s film cameras. I happen to love the softer rendering of the old film work and, to me, it's not necessary to zoom in to a great image and toss it out if it's not tack sharp. The content of the image is more important to me. But, I digress.

Aug 27, 2018 at 04:32 PM

mcaswell
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

Weight is certainly a factor, but my main motivation for the switch is the AF (coverage, and eye tracking). I know a few local photographers who use Fuji and love it, but from what I've read, it seems like Sony's AF is better in low light.

Another factor is the silent shutter, and I like that the A9 radically reduces the chances of banding from funky lighting. It's hard for me to predict whether or not this would be an issue in the churches and other venues I shoot in... the A9 could be overkill in this regard. And it definitely is overkill in the area of frame rate, as I shoot continuous for only about 2-3 seconds on any given wedding (the kiss at the end of the ceremony), and 8fps is plenty for me.

My original plan was, if my experience with this first A9 is favorable, to buy another A9 (and then later buy an A7 as a backup). But now I'm thinking of making the second purchase one of the A7s instead, so I can shoot with both and get a feel for the differences in AF and how big of a concern banding will be. Once I have that experience under my belt, I'll either buy another A9, or another A7.

Aug 27, 2018 at 05:04 PM

mcaswell
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

davewolfs wrote:
Have you considered that there will be an app coming which can backup your Z7/Z6 files periodically to an external device without user intervention?

Yes, I've seen a couple of mentions of that... if they can make it work seamlessly and reliably, that could certainly be a viable alternative. My main concerns would be how it severely it would affect battery life, to constantly be transferring images via WiFi like that. And, if that Nikon Snapbridge app is any indication, I would be very surprised if was a trouble-free operation... I sat in my car for like 20 minutes one day after a marriage proposal shoot trying to get it to pull a single image off my D850 so I could send it to the couple.

Aug 27, 2018 at 05:54 PM

davewolfs
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

The D850 requires snapbridge which by default uses Bluetooth. The Z6 and Z7 use an Open WiFi protocol.

You can read the review from Gunther Wegner where he covers this.

Aug 27, 2018 at 06:54 PM

mcaswell
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

Received my A9 today, and have only tried it with a 28 f2 and 55 f1.8, but wow, all I can say is WOW!

I'll reserve judgement until I use it this weekend in a dark reception hall with crazy people on the dance floor, but I did some low light AF "torture tests" here and am really impressed by how responsive and accurate it is.

Aug 29, 2018 at 01:49 PM

Arka
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Help with A9 vs. A7Riii or A7iii for Weddings

mcaswell wrote:
Received my A9 today, and have only tried it with a 28 f2 and 55 f1.8, but wow, all I can say is WOW!

I'll reserve judgement until I use it this weekend in a dark reception hall with crazy people on the dance floor, but I did some low light AF "torture tests" here and am really impressed by how responsive and accurate it is.

I don't think there is a camera out there today that focuses more accurately or faster than the A9 in AF-C or AF-S. The system (and its incredible 93% VF coverage and Eye AF capability) just leaves you spoiled for anything else.

Have fun with it, but be sure to carefully test the A9's compatibility with your flashes. I've had some issues with my A9, adapted lenses, and inconsistent triggering of my Godox AD200 units - something that's never been an issue with my Nikon cameras. Sometimes firmware updates resolve these problems - I'd torture test those issues as carefully as you torture-test the AF, though hopefully it won't be an issue for you at all with AF lenses.

Arka C.

Aug 29, 2018 at 02:02 PM

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