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Archive 2018 · Where did everyone go?

Mark Metternich
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Where did everyone go?

Camperjim wrote:
I rarely post here anymore. I post and look at the Photo Critique forum. This is a presentation forum. The Photo Critique forum is a place for learning, discussion and consideration of alternate capture and processing possibilities.

I never remember this forum being a "presentation forum." When did that occur?

When I joined I believe there was even some ethic / protocol posted somewhere about complimenting the image first and then, if possible making a constructive suggestion to how it might possibly be improved. Maybe I am mistaken. But that is how this forum has always been. Although in the last couple of years, especially the last year I have noticed it seems to be more of a pat on the back approach than in previous years.

Jul 19, 2018 at 08:37 AM

Camperjim
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Where did everyone go?

Mark Metternich wrote:
I never remember this forum being a "presentation forum." When did that occur?

The Landscape Forum is listed as a "Presentation Board". This is from the posting guidelines: "If you are desiring more in-depth critiques, please only post one or two photos or use the critique forum." This is not a recent change. In fact, several years ago in the era when Jim Fox was a moderator, discussions were actively discouraged and often reprimanded.

It is also clear that many who post here are proud of their work and do not appreciate or want to hear any sort of negative comments, suggestions, or critiques.

If you are interested in any sort of detailed discussions, alternate processing ideas or just hearing comments about how others perceive your work, I highly recommend the Photo Critique forum. The group of participants is pretty small -- maybe a dozen or so regulars -- so I am sure additional participants would be very much welcomed. The Photo Critique forum includes various genres and I would certainly like to see more participation from landscape photographers.

Jul 19, 2018 at 09:12 AM

EGrav
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Where did everyone go?

Yep - I don't come to this forum to hear self-appointed experts expounding on and on. If I wanted that I would go to the Critiques forum. I just want to peruse images....

Jul 19, 2018 at 09:37 AM

JimKied
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Where did everyone go?

stanparker wrote:
Jim, I miss seeing your work. Similarly, I stopped posting years ago, just enjoy looking and occasionally commenting.
Miss seeing yours too, Stan. I'm off to Glacier as we speak. Looks like a lot of blue sky days in store, but I'll do my darndest. Hopefully I'll have something to post. Incidentally, I'm on Instagram as #jimkiedingerphotography and it has a lot of my beach (local) scenes. Caters to a different audience.

Jul 19, 2018 at 10:29 AM

Mark Metternich
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Where did everyone go?

Camperjim wrote:
The Landscape Forum is listed as a "Presentation Board". This is from the posting guidelines: "If you are desiring more in-depth critiques, please only post one or two photos or use the critique forum." This is not a recent change. In fact, several years ago in the era when Jim Fox was a moderator, discussions were actively discouraged and often reprimanded.

It is also clear that many who post here are proud of their work and do not appreciate or want to hear any sort of negative comments, suggestions, or critiques.

If you are interested in any sort of detailed discussions,...Show more →

Interesting.

My understanding was that the Landscape Forum part that says:

"If you are desiring more in-depth critiques, please only post one or two photos..."

was still in effect.

Is it not?

Also, years before that, I believe (maybe I am wrong) it used to say something about the protocol of effective constructive critique. In short, say something positive first and then maybe bring up something you think might be able to be improved.

I think I have been here for something like 13 years and have received and given critique suggestions almost always. I even had a PM (message) from Jim Fox suggesting/asking that I do it more! When Jim was moderator I got critiqued all the time (and almost always from him). I never saw a reprimand or dispersuasion against it unless people were getting negative/abusive/discouraging in their comments.

I may be way off base here, but this seeming drop off of discussion about images here in the last year or so has seemed a shift to me and comes as a surprise.

Jul 19, 2018 at 11:27 AM

ckcarr
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Where did everyone go?

First off, you have to understand that Camperjim and Jim Fox did not get along. And it was not all Jim Fox's doing. So, Camperjim trying to lay blame on Jim Fox today here just goes with the territory.

There was a lot of good that goes with moderators here, inclusive of when Jeffrey was a moderator. Some people don't like moderators, they want to do whatever they please. They don't follow rules, they don't read the rules, and they take great offense at any criticism. Yes some might be worded poorly at times, but it's a free board so that's how it goes. The "anything goes" rule can't apply here, or even on other gear oriented boards, otherwise there would be no need to attempt to even have other boards in order to differentiate. It's like a library, you don't just put any old book on any old shelf just because you feel like it.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with why the board activity and participation is slower that in years past... Social media does play a huge part. What made this unique was the interaction. That doesn't mean posting 50 pictures, it meant thoughtful discussion...

Jul 19, 2018 at 11:48 AM

Dustin Gent
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Where did everyone go?

aFeinberg wrote:
Yes, been waaaay slower here. Back when Fm was a thing social media wasnt. Different times. I still appreciate the community here and NPN for dissecting some things that might have been overlooked. Ebbs and flows. Hopefully comes back a bit

aF

That is probably true - but it is sad that you can't truly "see" the photo on the other platforms, as you can here.

Jul 19, 2018 at 11:52 AM

Camperjim
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Where did everyone go?

I think Egrav expresses the opinion of the majority. Many come here to post and are annoyed or not interested if there is some sort of discussion. Even on the Photo Critique forum new comers often come and go quickly. They are looking for Ohs and Ahs and do not want to see the negatives.

I post on the PC forum to hear the opinions of "self-appointed experts". I know they are expressing personal opinions and I can learn how others see my images. It is easy to look at landscape images and remember the time and the place, only to find others do not see what I remember.

Jul 19, 2018 at 11:53 AM

guidostow
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Where did everyone go?

Mark Metternich wrote:
Interesting.

My understanding was that the Landscape Forum part that says:

"If you are desiring more in-depth critiques, please only post one or two photos..."

was still in effect.

Is it not?

Also, years before that, I believe (maybe I am wrong) it used to say something about the protocol of effective constructive critique. In short, say something positive first and then maybe bring up something you think might be able to be improved.

I think I have been here for something like 13 years and have received and given critique suggestions almost always. I even had a PM (message)...Show more →

Mark,

Your critiques suggestions and explanations are respectful, well reasoned and incredibly helpful! Please continue!

Your contributions are most welcome!

Thanks!

guido

Jul 19, 2018 at 11:56 AM

chez
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Where did everyone go?

One thing that has always bothered me with this forum is the constant self bumping of a post by just saying "thank you". There are threads here where almost 50% of the posts within that thread are from the topic starter...and the majority of them are "thank you".

I'd like to see a change made where by the topic starter could not bump their own post to the top. This way the post lives and dies by others...not by the over active topic starter.

Jul 19, 2018 at 01:40 PM

REMAC
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Where did everyone go?

chez wrote:
One thing that has always bothered me with this forum is the constant self bumping of a post by just saying "thank you". There are threads here where almost 50% of the posts within that thread are from the topic starter...and the majority of them are "thank you".

I'd like to see a change made where by the topic starter could not bump their own post to the top. This way the post lives and dies by others...not by the over active topic starter.

+1

Jul 19, 2018 at 03:16 PM

amacal1
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Where did everyone go?

My participation on FM waxes and wanes. I've been a part-time poster and browser for almost 9 years. I've never participated much in the Landscape Forum until very, very recently, and - even still - sparingly.

I have a lot more hobbies than time, and that's been true since I've been a teenager. I've joined a lot of technical or hobbyist forums for a lot of hobbies and specialties over the years. A group of interested, knowledgeable people sharing information around a singular subject is something that cannot be replaced, not with anything I've yet seen. Photography is my primary hobby, the one to which I've dedicated the most time and effort for the longest. FM is the best and only photo forum I wish to participate in, and I sincerely hope it's here for many years to come.

Social media may scratch an itch, but it's not a replacement for forums. Sure, I share some over social media, but that's where I expect "Oooh's" and "Ahhh's". I can't get real, substantive feedback from social media. I can't get technical advice. I can't continue multiple long-form discussions relating to various subjects. Furthermore, I can't easily give any of these things, either. The business model of social media almost inherently precludes some of those activities.

Flickr was probably the only thing that could have replaced any and all photog forums. It's social media, forums, presentation galleries, etc. all-in-one. But, Flickr isn't thriving, either, right?

Jul 19, 2018 at 03:45 PM

CheechzeppLn
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Where did everyone go?

I am mostly a lurker these days but I am still out shooting various things and still occasionally post. Work has been monopolizing a whole lot of my life lately but I hope to remedy that situation. A few interesting questions have been raised here as I read through the thread.

In regards to presentation forum and photo critique: Regardless of the forum I have always been a fan of constructive criticism here as it is the way I learn. I hope people continue to "speak up" and voice their knowledge. If you see something that may improve someone's composition, say something. If they get snotty about it , oh well.. on to the next. I do acknowledge that the photo critique forum is the correct place to utilize when you struggle for the correct final product.

As for the less traffic, That is a hard question. Why people post and comment are completely their own and I cannot fathom what other's motivations are. Personally I just like sharing images with everyone on the net. I find it gratifying to know I still shared something that they may have not experienced otherwise. My experience here is the more interactions you have with everyone the more likely they will give you feedback when you make a post yourself. Just like most things in life the more you put in the more, the better the result. I try to give feedback when I think it can help, a few times it has been appreciated and other times not. I am not discouraged either way.

chez wrote," One thing that has always bothered me with this forum is the constant self bumping of a post by just saying "thank you". There are threads here where almost 50% of the posts within that thread are from the topic starter...and the majority of them are "thank you". I'd like to see a change made where by the topic starter could not bump their own post to the top. This way the post lives and dies by others...not by the over active topic starter."
I think this would be counter productive, it is not always just a thank you from the original poster. Sometimes a discussion is taking place. How would you differentiate the two?

Charlie

Jul 19, 2018 at 04:40 PM

chez
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Where did everyone go?

CheechzeppLn wrote:
I am mostly a lurker these days but I am still out shooting various things and still occasionally post. Work has been monopolizing a whole lot of my life lately but I hope to remedy that situation. A few interesting questions have been raised here as I read through the thread.

In regards to presentation forum and photo critique: Regardless of the forum I have always been a fan of constructive criticism here as it is the way I learn. I hope people continue to "speak up" and voice their knowledge. If you see something that may improve someone's composition,...Show more →

When a true discussion takes place, multiple people are involved and the post would get bumped up by those people. If only the post originator is in the discussion then that post does not deserve to be bumped up.

Just my observation that many add simple comments to their own posts just to bump them up. Something like “thank you Bob” after over a week of the thread being silent so it can be bumped to the top is just not fair to the threads that have just been posted and are being shoved down. This occurs an awful lot here, by some prominent members.

Jul 19, 2018 at 05:10 PM

ckcarr
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Where did everyone go?

Fred put all kinds of controls in place. One example was trying to limit bumps, where there had to be a different forum member first. People learned to circumvent them. Some could post, which bumped the thread, then they quickly deleted their post, but the thread then stayed up on top. Oftentimes I really want to name names, but at this stage it doesn't matter...

Edited on Jul 19, 2018 at 05:15 PM · View previous versions

Jul 19, 2018 at 05:13 PM

kylebarendrick
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Where did everyone go?

Presentation forums can (and I believe should) have some discussion - for me that's what makes forums have value relative to social media. I do refrain from making critical comments on a post that doesn't welcome them (C&C welcome, etc.) because as some have noted not everyone is interested. For me the distinction between the critique forum and presentation is that on the presentation forum you are posting an image that you consider finished. Of course you may change your mind once you get some feedback :-). The critique forum is actively soliciting that feedback to help finish an image - or figure out what does or doesn't work.

I think a happy medium for the "bumping" issue (and it bugs me too) could be something similar to B&S: The OP can only bump their own thread 3 times, so use them wisely.

Jul 19, 2018 at 05:15 PM

Mark Metternich
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Where did everyone go?

guidostow wrote:
Mark,

Your critiques suggestions and explanations are respectful, well reasoned and incredibly helpful! Please continue!

Your contributions are most welcome!

Thanks!

guido

Huge thank you Guido! I appreciate the encouragement. You always have an encouraging positive spirit.

ckcarr wrote:
What made this unique was the interaction. That doesn't mean posting 50 pictures, it meant thoughtful discussion...

Agreed!

Jul 19, 2018 at 08:57 PM

Camperjim
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Where did everyone go?

A couple of posts have put forth the idea that the Photo Critique forum is for work that is somehow not finished. Although that is a possible use of the forum, for most images the work is finished. The goal is often to see how others view the work.

Jul 19, 2018 at 09:46 PM

keepclicking
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Where did everyone go?

Very interesting thread! I have been a follower of this forum for quite a few years and I have primarily used the form as a learning tool until recently. I have indeed noticed a drop in participation not sure why🤔. To me this is a great forum to learn and get some great tips from some amazing FM photographers. Hope this forum continues to thrive as I truly feel that this forum has a lot to offer.

Jul 19, 2018 at 10:34 PM

Mark Metternich
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Where did everyone go?

kylebarendrick wrote:
Presentation forums can (and I believe should) have some discussion - for me that's what makes forums have value relative to social media.

Totally agreed.

As much as this Landscape Forum is being called a presentation forum, I have never known it to be merely that. When in depth critique has always been clearly encouraged in its policy and practiced.

”If you are desiring more IN DEPTH CRITIQUES, please only post one or two photos...".

That seems clear.

But the spirit of the critiquer I think is fundamental. Having been critiqued in literally thousands of posts I can certainly generally tell which people are approaching me or my image to be encouraging and helpful and which ones negative and discouraging. At times those really negative people almost tempted me to quit the forum. But almost always I would get a bunch of private messages by people thanking me for posting here, enduring the negativity, and often thanking me for continuing to post the extra back information on an image. In a word, these people were ENCOURAGING. I have found many of these FM people on my photography workshops over the years. They often thank me in person for not giving in to the negativity.

Approach: I have almost always tried to soften my critique/improvement suggestions by saying something clearly positive about the image first. Then when bringing up the potential improvement, saying something like “If it was my image I might be tempted to do such and such to it.” I often will follow up with a last positive comment. It’s those people here who just drop blunt criticism or negativity into threads that, I think, ruins the spirit of constructive positive critique.

I can recall certain people only commenting with a single line and it being only a negative spirit/comment. I think those types are always toxic to a great community as we have had here for a long time. Maybe it was not here but I believe many years back that the policy said something like:

“Give a compliment first and tell the person what you like about the image, and then maybe add a constructive suggestion on how you think it might be improved.”

When people just say “over baked” or “over cooked” or something blunt like that, I don’t think many find that approach helpful or constructive. I believe people should say something more in the lines of “for my unique personal preference, I think this or that could be improved in this way...” Negative folks rarely or even never approach it this way.

Jul 20, 2018 at 09:03 AM

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