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Archive 2018 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

UnknownSouljer
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

This is somewhat of an odd comparison, as it's cross system.
The thing is though, there are quite a few of us (I know I can't be the only one) that are using lenses cross platform.

So, AF aside (as the Canon will obviously be on whatever preferred adapter), which of these two lenses has superior performance (sharpness, resolution, color, contrast, boké, minimal CA, etc)?

Camera would be A7RII/III

I tried to Google this answer, but DXO as an example haven't done testing on the Canon lens. And also DXO is generally not good at comparing things involving "taste", merely looking at purely objective tests (which is very valid up to a certain extent) and not at all when talking about preferred rendering. And no one else has a direct head-to-head comparison on the internet that I could find either (either objective or subjective).

So, anyone have direct experience with both?

May 03, 2018 at 07:47 PM

avuroski
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

No direct experience with both, so feel free to ignore, but based on everything I've read, there's no way the Canon will outperform the Sony on the Sony body, even discounting AF. Plus the IS won't work, so you're paying for a big feature that's not getting used. If I was using Sony with the MC11 and Canon glass, I'd probably go back to the 85/1.2 II for portraiture rather than the 1.4

May 03, 2018 at 08:06 PM

UnknownSouljer
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

avuroski wrote:
No direct experience with both, so feel free to ignore, but based on everything I've read, there's no way the Canon will outperform the Sony on the Sony body, even discounting AF. Plus the IS won't work, so you're paying for a big feature that's not getting used. If I was using Sony with the MC11 and Canon glass, I'd probably go back to the 85/1.2 II for portraiture rather than the 1.4

In terms of optical path there is zero difference between native and non-native glass.

So either the Canon 1.4L, outright performs better or worse than the Sony. Regardless of what system it is mounted on. Sony "air" isn't different than Canon "air".

I also have considered the 1.2L II. It's attractive as on the used market it has dropped a lot. Probably actually less than the 1.4L used (if you can find it, its still too new to have a big used market). However, most reviews that I've seen comparing the 1.2L II vs the 1.4L IS state that the newer lens is better in terms of sharpness, resolution, CA, contrast, and other optical characteristics. The 1.2L II generally only has a greater advantage in terms of boké and falloff, and only when it is at 1.2L and not at any other f-stop, especially ones the 1.4L is capable of. That is the f/1.2 vs not f/1.2 tradeoff. But considering there is only 2/3 an f-stop difference, for most that isn't enough, and for me it's generally looking like it's definitely not enough.

Long and the short, I picked the two lenses I did to go head-to-head for a reason. Because all other lenses versus one another are already a known quantity.

I should have noted that IS doesn't matter. Sony doesn't have a system that can utilize both IS/OSS and IBIS at the same time. So complaining that the Canon can't use it, doesn't really matter in general. That's more of a Sony knitpick than anything. Some adapaters such as the metabones are capable of utilizing IS, but considering that once again IBIS is superior to IS/OSS again, it's still moot.

Edited on May 03, 2018 at 08:19 PM · View previous versions

May 03, 2018 at 08:16 PM

johnctharp
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

I've only shot the Canon, and it's good- but I can't say that it's good enough to supersede the Sony to the point that it would be worth giving up fully native functions, let alone the increased bulk and failure points of an adapted lens.

But it should also adapt well.

I'd recommend renting both for a comparison.

May 03, 2018 at 08:17 PM

charles.K
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

On the A7rII platform I have used the 50L and 85L II with MB IV platform. The AF is accurate but slow. I also had the GM 85 an in terms of speed/low light/accuracy of AF the GM 85 is a no brainer. With respect to the 85/1.4L this may perform much better with the later adapters.

Best to rent and see it suits your style of photography

Edited on May 03, 2018 at 08:35 PM · View previous versions

May 03, 2018 at 08:34 PM

avuroski
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

UnknownSouljer wrote:
In terms of optical path there is zero difference between native and non-native glass.

This is a bold assertion. I'd like to see the evidence for this, if you have any.

May 03, 2018 at 08:34 PM

GabrielPhoto
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

UnknownSouljer wrote:
This is somewhat of an odd comparison, as it's cross system.
The thing is though, there are quite a few of us (I know I can't be the only one) that are using lenses cross platform.

So, AF aside (as the Canon will obviously be on whatever preferred adapter), which of these two lenses has superior performance (sharpness, resolution, color, contrast, boké, minimal CA, etc)?

Camera would be A7RII/III

I tried to Google this answer, but DXO as an example haven't done testing on the Canon lens. And also DXO is generally not good at comparing things involving "taste", merely looking at purely objective...Show more →

Get the GM...after testing four 85mm lenses (five as I also tested the 85mm 1.2 ), I can say the GM is on a league of its own if your main thing is portrait work. I have not shot the Canon 85mm 1.4 but based on reviews I have seen, I do not see how it will be able to match the GM. You are lucky to be in the Sony system where the GM is available so I suggested going for it

May 03, 2018 at 08:38 PM

UnknownSouljer
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

GabrielPhoto wrote:
Get the GM...after testing four 85mm lenses (five as I also tested the 85mm 1.2 ), I can say the GM is on a league of its own if your main thing is portrait work. I have not shot the Canon 85mm 1.4 but based on reviews I have seen, I do not see how it will be able to match the GM. You are lucky to be in the Sony system where the GM is available so I suggested going for it

It is no slouch. But obviously the Canon isn't either. I agree with you that it must be better than the 1.2L II. That's what makes this comparison really useful for me. And I hope other people that are in the same "predicament" of trying to pick the absolute best lens.

And yes, it will primarily be used for portraiture, with some usage for video production (which the Sony is better for with the clickless Aperture ring for sure).

Maybe I really should just do a shootout with both lenses after doing a rental. I don't really have a Youtube channel for those things, but hey, considering no one else has done it yet, maybe it would get a few k "clicks".

avuroski wrote:
This is a bold assertion. I'd like to see the evidence for this, if you have any.

Seriously? Quote the rest of what I said. And then tell me how Sony "air" different then Canon "air?

A lens is a lens. In terms of optical performance and given the flange distance being the same (via the adapter), how then can there literally be any difference? I would say it would require testing on your part to show me that somehow a piece of glass all of a sudden will operate differently optically just because it's on a different system.

If that piece of logic fails you, keep in mind that the EF system is the most used glass system EVER. Not just on photography cameras but more importantly in the cinema world. Do you honestly believe that if I took a $6500 Canon Cinema prime there would be a difference whether I put it on a RED, an Arri, a Canon (C200, C300 II, etc), or a Sony (FS5, FS7, etc)? If your answer is yes, then you'd better have tons of information on why there are tons of DP's using EF glass on their cameras and how wrong they are to do so on films with millions of dollars on the line.

This goes the same with the PL lens mount. It operates the exact same regardless of any system it's on. In fact, in the Cinema world, lenses are adapted quite literally ALL THE TIME. From vintage Leicas and Contax lenses all the way up to the modern. Companies like Duclos literally specialize in this. Tons of cinema cameras are now designed with interchangeable lens mounts (PL one day, EF the next). Optics are optics. Now, if you don't have something to say about the comparison, feel free to move on and not post.

May 03, 2018 at 08:51 PM

GMPhotography
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

Been a long time since I shot the Canon 85 so I won’t comment on the comparison but the GM 85 is a wonderful lens. Looking for my tests on it

May 03, 2018 at 09:46 PM

GMPhotography
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

Here it’s when it came out. Worth a read

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1423407/0?keyword=Sony,85mm,1.4#13501859

May 03, 2018 at 09:48 PM

avuroski
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

UnknownSouljer wrote:
A lens is a lens. In terms of optical performance and given the flange distance being the same (via the adapter), how then can there literally be any difference?

Because many, many people have shown, objectively, that the Sony's sensor is different than the Canon sensor in terms of its physical characteristics, and so lenses will behave differently. That is the reason all the Sigmas, et al., have not immediately released lenses for the Sony system - they have to accomidate to the difference.

May 03, 2018 at 10:17 PM

JohnJ
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

UnknownSouljer wrote:
It is no slouch. But obviously the Canon isn't either. I agree with you that it must be better than the 1.2L II. That's what makes this comparison really useful for me. And I hope other people that are in the same "predicament" of trying to pick the absolute best lens.

And yes, it will primarily be used for portraiture, with some usage for video production (which the Sony is better for with the clickless Aperture ring for sure).

Maybe I really should just do a shootout with both lenses after doing a rental. I don't really have a Youtube channel for...Show more →

The sensor changes the image you get from the lens, even if the 'air' is the same along the way. This can be a significant issue if sensor cover glass thickness is different to that of the native system as is seen with M Leica glass in particular, but this isn't an issue with canon/sony.

Edited on May 03, 2018 at 10:52 PM · View previous versions

May 03, 2018 at 10:35 PM

UnknownSouljer
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

avuroski wrote:
Because many, many people have shown, objectively, that the Sony's sensor is different than the Canon sensor in terms of its physical characteristics, and so lenses will behave differently. That is the reason all the Sigmas, et al., have not immediately released lenses for the Sony system - they have to accomidate to the difference.

I stand very firm in my statement. The reason why any of this works in the first place is that it's literally based upon physics.

Sigma's issue is far different. They want to create native glass in order to capitalize on the system. But that's more of an issue of AF electronics far more than it is about changing the mount. The new Sigma lenses that will be released that are Sony FE have zero, and I mean zero changes in terms of optical formula. They basically changed and extended the mount. That's it.

To take this notion further about Sigma, if you read Sigma's own press kit about the FE lens line... and remember, this is from Sigma themselves:
https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sigma-announces-nine-new-sony-fe-lenses/

"Key Features"

"5. Available Mount Conversion Service This service converts the mount of SIGMA lenses to that of a different camera body, allowing photographers to continue using their favorite lenses over the long term regardless of camera system."

Because IT DOESN'T MATTER. Like I said, this has nothing to do with optics. Just electronics and flange distance. And Sigma themselves certainly think so. (And if you think Sigma is going to change the optical formula based upon which system it's getting moved to, then you're very easily duped. The cost would make it pointless for the end user, might as well continue to sell and rebuy at that point).

You can see this same thing with the Rokinon lenses. The Rokinon lenses were originally designed for EF mount. And then they made "native FE" mount lenses. And all they did was simply extend the back (essentially adding a built in adapter). And because their lenses were manual focus only, there was literally no performance difference. (In fact, I think all their lenses are the same, regardless of which mount. But I can speak for the EF and FE ones first hand).

http://rokinon.com/lenses/cine-lenses/searchby/mount/canon
http://rokinon.com/lenses/cine-lenses/searchby/mount/sony-e

Click on any of Rokinon's Cine-DS line, you pick then lens then pick the mount. I'm also nigh 100% that there is no difference on literally any of those lenses other than the mount (and hence flange distance).

JohnJ wrote:
The sensor changes the image you get from the lens, even if the 'air' is the same along the way. This can be a significant issue of sensor cover glass thickness is different to that of the native system as is seen with M Leica glass in particular.

Your logic doesn't follow. The focal plane is fixed and is a measurable distance. If this had any serious or measurable effect, once again you'd be able to point at all the Cinema users that are "doing it wrong". So, show me how adapting a vintage Contax Zeiss lens affects a Red or an Arri and we can have a discussion on how a Canon lens affects a Sony (which by the way already happens in the cinema world like I noted before with Canon lenses on the FS5 and FS7). Because even if you were right that for some reason "sensor cover glass" as you put it causes the lenses on the system to refract differently, then that same issue would be inherent and a problem across their own system. And even if it did, in the case of Leica that would be an exception not a rule. But considering that Leica doesn't make their own sensors, I highly doubt there is any meaningful, measurable difference.

Show me your so called tests that will show an optical issue with non-native glass that wasn't already present on the native system and we can have any level of discussion. But this is a big waste of my time and a big waste of yours. Because at best you'll figure out that there isn't a difference and magically this discussion can end. And at worst, I don't change my position and we simply waste more time.

===

EDIT: I'm not going to bother to respond actually. So reply or don't. Like I just finished my last paragraph with, this is a waste of my time and it doesn't cover the topic at hand. And even if you "think it does", I don't consider it to. Nor will I take this into consideration when evaluating this line up. All you're serving to do is derail this thread which is about two 85mm lenses. Not about "whether there are issues with adapting" you know that thing that people have been doing since the beginning of cinema.

Edited on May 03, 2018 at 11:16 PM · View previous versions

May 03, 2018 at 10:49 PM

JohnJ
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

UnknownSouljer wrote:
...

===

EDIT: I'm not going to bother to respond actually. So reply or don't. Like I just finished my last paragraph with, this is a waste of my time and it doesn't cover the topic at hand. And even if you "think it does", I don't consider it to. Nor will I take this into consideration when evaluating this line up. All you're serving to do is derail this thread which is about two 85mm lenses. Not about "whether there are issues with adapting" you know that thing that people have been doing since the beginning of cinema.

In that case it's a good thing you wont go to lensrentals.com and search 'sensor stack' on their blog because that might not be what you want to read. It's worth knowing as it might be relevant to you at some point, even if not right now. Regardless, the point is that the sensor translates an airial image into data and this also has differing colour casts/balance, dynamic range etc. The image you get is different on different sensors (bodies) even though the airial image is unchanged.

May 03, 2018 at 11:12 PM

UnknownSouljer
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

JohnJ wrote:
In that case it's a good thing you wont go to lensrentals.com and search 'sensor stack' on their blog because that might not be what you want to read. It's worth knowing as it might be relevant to you at some point, even if not right now. Regardless, the point is that the sensor translates an airial image into data and this also has differing colour casts/balance, dynamic range etc. The image you get is different on different sensors (bodies) even though the airial image is unchanged.

I don't know why I'm responding. Probably because I'm a dupe.

But if you mean this article:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/sensor-stack-thickness-when-does-it-matter/
Here you go.

Then you'll note if sensor stack size plays an issue... THEN IT'S A PROBLEM WITH EVERY BRANDS OWN SYSTEM.

Sony as an example has stacks ranging from 0.6-2.05. So I guess I should buy a Sony camera body based upon which sensor stack thickness with which lens will perform better? Or how about Canon with a range from 1.0-2.7? It's the same with the optical path measurement as well. There isn't consistency even within a single brand. Perhaps save Leica, which has to have a really small optical stack. This issue even with further reading only seems to be a big deal with u4/3 cameras with massive optical stacks. And that is still neither a Sony nor a Canon. And that issue would effect even their own native lenses. As has been noted (although there has been some minor tech to prevent this, it won't save it like having a thinner optical stack would).

Like I said. This is a problem inherent in its own system. Even Leica, with its two measurements on the M8 and M9 are different. So if I can't reliably choose a body and a lens on a single camera system, what difference if any would it make when adapting a lens?

Anything else you have to say? Or will you now give me a database of every lens that I should and should not buy, not based upon mount type but rather sensor stack and optical stack size? If you have one, that would be more useful than arguing about why I should or shouldn't use a Canon lens on a Sony body.

Even the Exit Pupil database doesn't help. Because obviously by nature, the distance is going to be different on different lenses depending on focal length. It's quite literally impossible to choose only long exit pupil distances. Especially if you want a 24mm lens. Which apparently will react different on different bodies within the same system.

So no, I don't find that good information to know. Because literally this information doesn't help me at all. Other than now knowing I guess that If I buy all native Sony glass, it still won't perform the same on every Sony body. And considering that I'm going to have more than one different body, that's just great. So thumbs up there, every brand that has ever bothered to make a camera!

Edited on May 03, 2018 at 11:53 PM · View previous versions

May 03, 2018 at 11:24 PM

philip_pj
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

removed.

Edited on May 04, 2018 at 12:01 AM · View previous versions

May 03, 2018 at 11:43 PM

UnknownSouljer
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

philip_pj wrote:
It's not hard to imagine the imaging chain as a series of stages in which each stage must be compatible with its upstream and downstream components. When digital took over, Leica realized they had made a large number of film era M lenses that had such radical max ray angles (up to 45 degrees!) that they were incompatible with industry standard sensor stacks. What worked beautifully with film was suddenly a problem they and they alone in FF faced. They responded by reducing their sensor thicknesses to reach the optimal dimensions for their lenses, a sound engineering approach. From memory,...Show more →

Okay. So we are talking about exceptions, rather than rules. And splitting hairs over things that are not germane to this conversation. This is what I hate about having conversations on forums. Is that there will be an enormous time spent on nitpicking rather than focusing on the big issue at hand (IE: the thread topic). Basically, it's like thread crapping for people that feel like they want to be the intellectual in the conversation. But it doesn't actually serve to aid or move the conversation forward. As none of this has helped me at all in the decision making process.

If I was trying to put a summarex 85mm or a summicron 90mm on a Sony, we could talk. But as long as I'm not, it doesn't really matter.

And all this conversation has done is simply cement me on my position, and proved that there won't and can't be enough difference to matter. All while making 7 posts not related to the thread.

May 03, 2018 at 11:47 PM

philip_pj
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

OK, sorry I bothered, over and out.

May 04, 2018 at 12:00 AM

justruss
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

UnknownSouljer wrote:
Okay. So we are talking about exceptions, rather than rules. And splitting hairs over things that are not germane to this conversation. This is what I hate about having conversations on forums. Is that there will be an enormous time spent on nitpicking rather than focusing on the big issue at hand (IE: the thread topic). Basically, it's like thread crapping for people that feel like they want to be the intellectual in the conversation. But it doesn't actually serve to aid or move the conversation forward. As none of this has helped me at all in the decision making...Show more →

On the other hand, some of us absolutely love forums for the way conversations meander and expand and pick apart details that we enjoy reading about and discussing.

If you hate (your word) having conversations on forums... why set yourself up for frustration by starting a forum conversation?

Philip's post was more aside, with a little history, than nitpicking. Interesting one too. I quite enjoyed it.

All of which is preamble to me saying that "it's all physics" is the physics of ideal surfaces, perfect gases, and uniform materials. Which, is to say, the physics of the imagination. (Yay, I used my physics degree. Kinda.)

There's plenty that can go sideways with adaptors-- call them engineering issues if we want to (falsely) present physics as meaning only ideal situations. Things like internal reflections, light leaks, non-uniformity of adaptor thickness (remember shimming?). And all that can lead to lower contrast, something like decentering exaggeration, etc.

Yeah, the film industry uses all kinds of lenses on all kinds of cameras (my brother is a DP in Hollywood/TV), but the stills world is a different one, and looking at huge prints, or measurebating for an hour on an 4k/8k monitor zoomed in is different than watching a single frame go by at 24, 30, or 48/second. But yes, adaptors mostly work and the small differences we're talking about rarely really matter-- including those between lenses like the two 85s in question. (Honestly, you'd probably rarely notice much effective/matters-worthy difference between any of the Sony 85s... I shot all three side-by-side and they are more similar than most will let on, from bokeh to rendering, even the catseyes.)

This is why time and time again, in the real world, it's been shown that it can be difficult to tell which lens is superior without a large sample size to determine a signal beyond the noise of adaptor issues (not to mention testing methodology issues). Looking at the number of responses... we're coming up short.

Which leads to yet another digression (or primary point): If the objective differences aren't all that striking, or we simply don't have enough datapoints to drive us through the noise, then it's going to come down to one's subjective view of overall use, rendering, etc...

I'd suggest the lensrental link from above. Rent them and run them side by side for a week. Then report back-- seriously-- because you'll be filling in a really nice bit of info we're obviously short on.

May 04, 2018 at 02:05 AM

Stoffer
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Which is better: Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM or Canon 85mm f/1.4L IS?

justruss wrote:
I'd suggest the lensrental link from above. Rent them and run them side by side for a week. Then report back-- seriously-- because you'll be filling in a really nice bit of info we're obviously short on.

+1

May 04, 2018 at 02:54 AM

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