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Archive 2018 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison

  
 
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


This is about as terrible a comparison as you can get. This is not a test. Nothing was kept the same between cameras: the lens selections are unfair, the differing ISOs are unfair, the framing is unfair, nearly everything about this is unfair. I did this because it's how I would walk out with either camera and shoot a casual snapshot like this. The lighting is a little yucky, post sunrise with hazy skies.

What I did:

Used the 5DsR and GFX
Used the 100-400 II on the Canon @ 100mm
Used the GF 120 prime on the GFX (96mm equiv in 35mm format)
Stabilization "on" for both lenses
Both shots are handheld
Both cameras set to Program mode
Auto ISO on both
Morning light, but after sunrise, so the colors are not anything special
Adjusted both to taste in Lightroom as I would normally do (shadows are pulled to +100/Canon +85/GFX)
Lightroom profiles: Adobe Standard vII for the Canon, Adobe Standard for the GFX

What I conclude (which is what my bias already was):

In decent light these cameras are close enough in quality, regardless of the completely unfair comparison parameters. Most of the unfairness in this comparison strongly favors the GFX, yet the 5DsR does remarkably well.

What this comparison does not show but I know to be true from experience:

The 5DsR cannot keep up this pace once in more demanding lighting conditions. The GFX cannot keep up this pace in more demanding action conditions. Etc., etc.

In good lighting the 5DsR is a great value if you buy a new grey market body off eBay (mine was $2350). Canon will still service your unit, albeit at your expense (same as a US model once you've outside of your 1-year warranty).

The GFX is a difficult value proposition unless your work operates in the 400 and above ISO range or in tricky lighting, or unless you need the shallow small medium format DOF and the compression of space when comparing similar 35mm format focal lengths. Worth noting: this year it's expected Fujifilm will release a less expensive rangefinder version of the GFX 50S – the GFX R, that will be much like the XPro 2. It's expected the price point may come in as low as $3900. It's not certain if the current GFX will also be reduced in price around the same time.

Ad hominem attacks and personal insults alongside constructive criticism and thoughtful comments are welcome, even expected. Have at it.

[Edited to fix attachment error ]



© highdesertmesa 2017





© highdesertmesa 2017





© highdesertmesa 2017








Edited on Jan 19, 2018 at 02:01 PM · View previous versions



Jan 18, 2018 at 01:00 PM
molson
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


There's clearly little to distinguish the two cameras solely on resolution; the choice of lens and the user's technique will affect the results more than any inherent qualities of the sensors.

On the other hand, there is a significant difference in other factors that make up the "image quality" equation, namely dynamic range and colour depth. This is where the GFX really shines, although in really flat (i.e., boring) lighting, or after being subjected to ham-fisted post-processing techniques, the differences many not always be apparent.

Having four times the dynamic range of the 5DsR makes the GFX a very attractive tool for landscape photography.








Jan 18, 2018 at 01:56 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


molson wrote:
There's clearly little to distinguish the two cameras solely on resolution; the choice of lens and the user's technique will affect the results more than any inherent qualities of the sensors.

On the other hand, there is a significant difference in other factors that make up the "image quality" equation, namely dynamic range and colour depth. This is where the GFX really shines, although in really flat (i.e., boring) lighting, or after being subjected to ham-fisted post-processing techniques, the differences many not always be apparent.

Having four times the dynamic range of the 5DsR makes the GFX a very attractive tool for
...Show more

I agree. I find the smoothness of the tones and color depth from the GFX files to be impressive. The 5DsR files, while nice, can look a little gritty and have more "stepped" tonal transitions in vibrant areas by comparison. The 5DsR does ok in the example below considering it's using a $179 lens.



© highdesertmesa 2017





© highdesertmesa 2017





© highdesertmesa 2017





© highdesertmesa 2017




Jan 18, 2018 at 02:36 PM
takowasa
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


I'll leave the "Ad hominem attacks and personal insults alongside constructive criticism and thoughtful comments" to others. I just want to ask if you'll trade the GFX + 110 / 2 for a 6D2 + 100 / 2. I'll pay shipping.


Jan 18, 2018 at 04:53 PM
molson
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


takowasa wrote:
I'll leave the "Ad hominem attacks and personal insults alongside constructive criticism and thoughtful comments" to others. I just want to ask if you'll trade the GFX + 110 / 2 for a 6D2 + 100 / 2. I'll pay shipping.


Shipping would be really expensive...



Jan 18, 2018 at 05:32 PM
OntheRez
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


Ok. We'll posit that you are a bigot and an idiot and - as already established in an earlier post - likely high. Moving on - $8.4K for cam and lens?!? H*ll it better slice bread and make me sexy. (Just ignore the idiot in the back.) Price is irrelevant to the true aficionado. <sniff> What's the thing feel like in the hand? Does it move well? Controls, menus, ease in setting up/changing shots?

I guess I'm asking just how much fun is it to shoot? Image comparison is, as we know, a fool's errant - that's why we're all here. Sort of like saying Steak Tartar and a cheese burger are basically the same thing. Well yes, they both started out as cow. Presentation differs some.

Molson: You conclude there is "4x the dynamic range." In studying the line graph, I'm not sure what the 4x refers to. The fact that 5DsR only works to ≈ ISO 20K compared to the GFX 50s at ≈ ISO100K? That actually looks more like 5x though I didn't think ISO was the sole expression of DR. Have I missed something?

Actually an interesting camera, but I'm not likely to ascend to those rarified heights anytime soon.



Jan 18, 2018 at 06:05 PM
molson
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


OntheRez wrote:
Molson: You conclude there is "4x the dynamic range." In studying the line graph, I'm not sure what the 4x refers to. The fact that 5DsR only works to ≈ ISO 20K compared to the GFX 50s at ≈ ISO100K? That actually looks more like 5x though I didn't think ISO was the sole expression of DR. Have I missed something?

(


It's a log^2 scale... each full increment is a double the previous increment, so at ISO 100 with the 5DsR at 10 stops, and the GFX at 12 stops, the difference is 2 stops, or 2^2 = 4 times as much dynamic range.



Jan 18, 2018 at 07:07 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


OntheRez wrote:
...What's the thing feel like in the hand? Does it move well? Controls, menus, ease in setting up/changing shots?

I guess I'm asking just how much fun is it to shoot? Image comparison is, as we know, a fool's errant - that's why we're all here. Sort of like saying Steak Tartar and a cheese burger are basically the same thing. Well yes, they both started out as cow. Presentation differs some.


It handles really well, but if you like sleek, the Canon is more that. The GFX is a bit like an old boxy Mercedes G-Wagon, and it fits well, and in a different, almost utilitarian way. If find it comfortable to hand hold for long periods of time. I love it because it reminds me of the old Pentax 645 film camera. It's simpler to operate to me with the manual dials. I love looking down and seeing everything manually (ISO dial, shutter speed dial, aperture ring) or digitally on the top screen. The GF lens aperture rings are highly satisfying to move mechanically. They feel like something Leica would engineer. Then when you look combine this odd-looking camera with some really nice tech features. Some thoughts since you asked:

The digital depth of field scale in the viewfinder. At first I was irritated they didn't have focus distance markings on the lens, but after using the digital version, I find it much more useful. And unlike lens markings, I can set it to be digitally-based (only what's in sharp focus is shown) or film based (a more lenient, film-based interpretation of sharp). Looking at the DOF scale is cool – it's a white bar with distance markings along the bottom of the screen; then, across that is overlaid a blue bar representing what's in focus. I can change the aperture and watch the size of the blue bar increase (stopping down toward f/32) or decrease in size (opening up); then, you can move the focus ring in manual focus mode and watch this blue bar move back and forth / or autofocus and see to where it jumps.

Focus points all over the screen. The focus point selector joystick is super-slick and well done. Without having to push a button to activate it, I simply move the joystick (Canon requires a button press plus moving the joystick, but you can change it to operate the same way). I can comfortably can put the focus point anywhere on screen quickly and with finesse and control. The touch to focus on the rear screen is nice, too – works really well.

The EVF is pretty good for landscape and general use. I would prefer an optical viewfinder overlaid with the digital data from the EVF.

Shutter sound is interesting. It sounds like film is auto-winding with each shot. Weird, but also kinda cool.

Jury is out on endurance. I know my Canon will take a beating. The GFX and GF lenses are weatherproofed and well sealed, but time will tell how these do with taking the hard hits. I take care of my stuff and don't throw it around, though, so I may never know.

Flip-out rear screen is awesome. It tilts all directions.

Some people say the image review button is in an awkward spot on top of the rear screen facing upward, but I've gotten used to hitting it with the bottom of my thumb without looking down or having to think twice about it.

It's nearly a dust-free sensor. Fujifilm put the sensor cover glass 9mm away from the sensor so that any dust that falls on the glass is defocused and can't show as easily. Between that and the auto cleaning system, I've yet to see a single spot on it. With my Canon, I feel like I need to be in a clean room wearing a hazmat suit when I change lenses. I hate hate hate sensor dust, and so far the GFX has been great in that regard.

If you use the GF 63 or 45 lenses, the entire rig is about like the 5DsR with a 50 1.4 lens on it. Sometimes all I take out is the body and 63 lens (don't have the 45) and use it like an old Fujifilm fixed-lens medium format camera. It's basically a medium format Leica Q configured this way.

Some of the lenses make weird space sounds like you're on Star Trek or something. The 110 and 120 have elements operated by electromagnets, and the sound of them active is really odd but strangely addictive (as long as the camera is on, so are they). Sounds like I'm at the Very Large Array listening for aliens.

The batteries kick ass on these things. I have two batteries and can't imagine ever needing more than that for a day's shooting. I have yet to burn through one battery in a day, but I know others have said they will end up on the second battery sometimes on a long day's shoot.

I burned though a lot of cameras to end up with the GFX. In fact, this is my second GFX system. I returned the first one thinking something else appealed to me more. I was the same way about the 5DsR. And the Leica Q. What I didn't come back to was the Leica SL (never made friends with it) or the 5D Mark IV (AA filter – don't like mushy 1:1 viewing).




Jan 19, 2018 at 12:06 AM
tunisia
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


Hi,
What a biased post.
Anyhow, have you adapted any lenses to the GFX? And if you are able, would you be able to show some shots using the Canon 40mm f2.8 you used with the 5DSR?
I have both cameras, have gone through much the same camera exchange experience as you and settled on the Fuji for the immediate future.
What appeals to me and I hated about the Canon, in deference to your desire for an optical VF is the EVF. It is a necessity for me for practical reasons (ie: vision) especially since I prefer manual focusing. I've got the 63, 45, and 110 which are outstanding and find these to be excellent to unbelievable lenses (the 110 is the unbelievable).
I fully agree that the ergonomics, menu, button layout are excellent and I prefer the heft - but not too heavy - for hand-held shooting which I prefer; and, actually I find its look appealing, but I admit that is a highly personal thing.
So, for me, there is a vastly significant difference between these two fine cameras for the shooting style I have and my preferences for available light shooting at higher ISO's as you correctly pointed out.
Thanks for posting, this clearly intelligent biased semi-review.



Jan 19, 2018 at 01:31 AM
alundeb
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


Yeah, this test is really biased. Both crops shown are identical and from the exactly same file. The file size is exactly the same in number of bytes and the exif says it clearly in the post that both crops are with the Canon. "You are not good at this and you should stop trying"

But what do I know. I am blind and ignorant and post unsupported claims.



Jan 19, 2018 at 03:19 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


alundeb wrote:
Yeah, this test is really biased. Both crops shown are identical and from the exactly same file. The file size is exactly the same in number of bytes and the exif says it clearly in the post that both crops are with the Canon. "You are not good at this and you should stop trying"

But what do I know. I am blind and ignorant and post unsupported claims.


It's a very biased comparison. Very.

And so we're clear, I think you're confusing me with someone else on the "ignorant and unsupported" thing – that's an ongoing argument you've having with someone else.

As far as not being good at it and I should stop, you are absolutely right. But at least I know it, unlike others (Dan, cough cough)



Jan 19, 2018 at 11:53 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


alundeb wrote:
Both crops shown are identical and from the exactly same file.


Your prize for noticing is a crop from each camera.













Jan 19, 2018 at 11:55 AM
alundeb
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


That's better. And to be clear, you have never "ignoranted" me, that was someone else yes.


Jan 19, 2018 at 12:01 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


tunisia wrote:
Hi,
What a biased post.
Anyhow, have you adapted any lenses to the GFX? And if you are able, would you be able to show some shots using the Canon 40mm f2.8 you used with the 5DSR?
I have both cameras, have gone through much the same camera exchange experience as you and settled on the Fuji for the immediate future.
What appeals to me and I hated about the Canon, in deference to your desire for an optical VF is the EVF. It is a necessity for me for practical reasons (ie: vision) especially since I prefer manual focusing. I've got the
...Show more

Thanks. I wish I still had the 110; it's such a great lens. Previously, I had both the 110 and 120, but when I got the systems the second time, I decided on just the 23 / 63 / 120. I'm saving my 110 money for the GF 250 and 1.4x that should be out this year. While the 110 bokeh is nothing short of stunning at f/2, I found the stabilization in the 120 more useful for my purposes since I don't like to use a tripod. More than half of the shots I would take with the 110 would have some motion blur at 1:1.

I go back and forth on the EVF – sometimes it is nice to have. I do wish when I started manually focusing, it would automatically zoom in versus requiring a button press. The Leica Q works like that, and it's so much smoother in practice (button press to get out of focus-zoom, versus a press to activate it).



Jan 19, 2018 at 12:13 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


alundeb wrote:
That's better. And to be clear, you have never "ignoranted" me, that was someone else yes.


And thanks for letting me play off my crop mistake as intentional



Jan 19, 2018 at 12:14 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


tunisia wrote:
Hi,
What a biased post.
Anyhow, have you adapted any lenses to the GFX? And if you are able, would you be able to show some shots using the Canon 40mm f2.8 you used with the 5DSR?


I tried the Techart adapter but returned it since it didn't work well at all with the 100-400 II, which is why I bought it. But from samples I've seen in the Facebook GFX user group, the Canon 40 is really sharp on the GFX.



Jan 19, 2018 at 12:20 PM
molson
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


highdesertmesa wrote:
I tried the Techart adapter but returned it since it didn't work well at all with the 100-400 II, which is why I bought it. But from samples I've seen in the Facebook GFX user group, the Canon 40 is really sharp on the GFX.


The Techart adapter works much better with the new firmware (v2.0), but all of the Canon zoom lenses I've tried vignette quite a bit on the GFX (no fault of the adapter, of course).

The 40mm f2.8 STM and the TS-E lenses work great with no vignetting, and the 50mm f1.8 STM has almost no perceptible vignetting. I haven't tried any longer focal-length Canon primes, since I don't have access to any.



Jan 19, 2018 at 12:28 PM
molson
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


Here's another 5DsR vs GFX 50S (vs 645Z) comparison

(spoiler alert: fans of heavily cropped blurry bush photos will be disappointed)...

https://youtu.be/eWKOIS7WRoM



Jan 31, 2018 at 11:11 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


molson wrote:
Here's another 5DsR vs GFX 50S (vs 645Z) comparison

(spoiler alert: fans of heavily cropped blurry bush photos will be disappointed)...

https://youtu.be/eWKOIS7WRoM


I thought it was interesting he didn't mention what color profiles were used when comparing the portrait color from the GFX versus the 5DsR.

I'm most disappointed he chickened out on the dynamic range comparison. I guess it was pretty devastating for the 5DsR, something like the attached





© highdesertmesa 2017


5DsR's not-so-awesome dynamic range




Jan 31, 2018 at 12:54 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 5DsR & GFX: A Completely Unfair and Biased Comparison


Very artistic, paintery cloud shadow noise there!

One thing I would like to know about the GFX in about a year or so, how does it do with sensor dust? That is one of the things I hate about my A7r, sensor dust is the Achilles heel of mirrorless. Yet I have not needed to clean my 5DS R in 2 1/2 years, and I shoot a lot at f/16.



Jan 31, 2018 at 02:03 PM
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