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Archive 2018 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)

  
 
cputeq
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


So prompted by a question regarding D3S vs D750 trade, I was about to write a reply referring to the buffer when I got curious as to how much I could extend the D750 buffer.

Normally, I shoot RAW+JPEG, 14-bit lossless compressed with all the corrections in camera turned off.
That gives me a buffer of 10 shots.

Eventually, I was able to extend this to 16 shots -- 12-bit lossless, only RAW to a card.

I got curious, though, as to how much 12-bit would REALLY matter (after viewing several pages). One comment on an article noted one would run into banding earlier with 12-bit when dealing with extreme PP.

Since a few of my photos hit the extreme range, I figured I would do a test.

I shot the same high dynamic scene 12-bit then 14-bit. I then did +100 shadows, -100 highlights in LR to both, exported to Nik Color Efex and using the Tonal Contrast, I maxed adjustments to highlights, midtones, and shadows.

Back in LR, I then did a +100 shadows again.

I'm sure most will agree this is beyond absurd, but I'm looking for differences.

Honestly, I can't see a damn thing. They look identical, or so close that I'd never tell the difference on A/B comparisons.

Maybe someone with a better calibrated monitor than I can see some differences?






Whole Scene







Whole Scene







100% crop







100% crop again







Sky crop 100%







Sky again




Jan 15, 2018 at 11:49 AM
mogul
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


You have discovered that the human eye can't tell the difference and 14 bit is marketing (plus adding noise)


Jan 15, 2018 at 11:57 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


To tease out any potential difference between 12 and 14 bits you'll want to shoot at about 6-7EV underexposed and then push the shadows of both back up. A +100 shadows (even twice) is modest by comparison.


Jan 15, 2018 at 12:12 PM
cputeq
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


mogul wrote:
You have discovered that the human eye can't tell the difference and 14 bit is marketing (plus adding noise)


Yeah I've seen some tests from earlier cameras (D700 I think) that showed minor differences, I could tell, but again it was after extreme PP.

I tried to replicate the abuse in these photos and honestly, I don't see jack. Just wondering if someone with more keen eyesight than me can (or maybe my test scene or methodology is flawed) or perhaps my monitor is hiding the differences.




Jan 15, 2018 at 12:16 PM
cputeq
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


snapsy wrote:
To tease out any potential difference between 12 and 14 bits you'll want to shoot at about 6-7EV underexposed and then push the shadows of both back up. A +100 shadows (even twice) is modest by comparison.


Yeah I might try that next, as it's the only thing I can think of besides maybe teasing some color banding out with a smooth gradient and extreme PP again.




Jan 15, 2018 at 12:17 PM
Jim Holtz
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


Does shooting 12 bit decrease high ISO noise enough to be able to increase maximum ISO a stop on the D750? 12,800 is my tolerable maximum and it would be nice to shoot up to 25,600 and still have a usable image if needed.

Note; I am not shooting magazine covers, just events, family, vacations etc.

Jim



Jan 18, 2018 at 12:52 PM
CanadaMark
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


Jim Holtz wrote:
Does shooting 12 bit decrease high ISO noise enough to be able to increase maximum ISO a stop on the D750? 12,800 is my tolerable maximum and it would be nice to shoot up to 25,600 and still have a usable image if needed.

Note; I am not shooting magazine covers, just events, family, vacations etc.

Jim


No, if you're looking at Bill Claff's charts you'll notice that the read noise scales are different for 12 and 14bit. 14bit is still better.



Jan 18, 2018 at 01:16 PM
90 5.0
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


cputeq wrote:
Yeah I've seen some tests from earlier cameras (D700 I think) that showed minor differences, I could tell, but again it was after extreme PP.

I tried to replicate the abuse in these photos and honestly, I don't see jack. Just wondering if someone with more keen eyesight than me can (or maybe my test scene or methodology is flawed) or perhaps my monitor is hiding the differences.




I’d try what was mentioned earlier to test next.

Underedpose by a lot and try and get it back and see what’s that then



Jan 18, 2018 at 01:37 PM
Jim Holtz
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


CanadaMark wrote:
No, if you're looking at Bill Claff's charts you'll notice that the read noise scales are different for 12 and 14bit. 14bit is still better.


Hi Mark,

Thanks for responding but I could only find 14 bit results for D750 dynamic range. Any chance you have a link?

Thank you for your help!

Jim




Jan 18, 2018 at 02:52 PM
CanadaMark
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


Jim Holtz wrote:
Hi Mark,

Thanks for responding but I could only find 14 bit results for D750 dynamic range. Any chance you have a link?

Thank you for your help!

Jim



You know what, it looks like he only did it for the D850 (right hand Y-Axis is 12bit)

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU_D850.htm#Nikon%20D850_14

Same results should apply though. 14bit will still be better even if marginally.



Jan 18, 2018 at 03:22 PM
Jim Holtz
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


Thanks Mark! I'm glad to know I haven't completely lost it yet.


Jan 18, 2018 at 06:50 PM
elkhornsun
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


While I applaud your doing a test to compare 12-bit to 14-bit RAW your choice of subject was a poor one. With fewer bits the camera will have fewer color buckets into which to place a color value from a scene. Instead of 64 "buckets" for part of the yellow spectrum it will have only 8 buckets. What is loss is gradation in colors and I see it primarily with yellows in a picture. Same is visible to an even greater extreme when comparing RAW to 8-bit JPEG file captures.

For wildlife where one is trying to maximize the fps and use of the camera's buffer, there needs to be a conscious decision as to how important color detail and gradation is for the final image. Photographing egrets or terns is not going to require the color subtleties of photographing woodducks or hummingbirds.

Equally and often more important is nailing the exposure. Underexposing by a stop is going to result in a lot of empty buckets and result in color shifts. I have done my own tests and a 1-stop overexposure produces better IQ than 1-stop underexposure in all cases and sometimes it provides a better image with better color fidelity than a "perfect" exposure.

I would not worry about banding as this is something I have seen only with RAW images processed by Adobe ACR that fails to properly manage the data in the files. If it was a problem with the image files then it would be seen all the time with JPG files and it is not.

The D850 seems to be generating interest in reducing file capture size and to a degree it is misguided. In most situations the fps and buffer are not a factor. In most situations where it is a factor there is likely to be a DX crop at the time of capture or in post. In this situation the D500 camera is a better choice as it provides 10 fps without a battery pack grip and has an enormous buffer capacity at 14-bit. The D500 has a 200 shot buffer (enough for 20 seconds at 10 fps) with lossless 14-bit RAW capture.

There is a line from a song that goes, "how hopeless it all becomes when you seek all the answers in one". This definitely applies to photography where there is no single camera or lens that does it all.



Jan 21, 2018 at 11:16 AM
ckcarr
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Looks like I'm shooting 12-bit RAW from now (D750)


"how hopeless it all becomes when you seek all the answers in one".

Ha! That sounds like people I've worked for ...
"The next one will be better!" But they're not, just different, in different ways.

Just like cameras.



Jan 21, 2018 at 11:42 AM





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