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Archive 2017 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

  
 
Fred Miranda
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p.37 #1 · p.37 #1 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


mjm6 wrote:
On balance, they surely believe that the gain from OSS is more than the loss of adding the elements to the lens, and they are probably right.


I was thinking that perhaps the extra OSS stabilization will be more beneficial for video.



Oct 27, 2017 at 01:07 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.37 #2 · p.37 #2 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


sungphoto wrote:
I haven't seen much of an improvement since I picked up another a7r2 to play around with. Still lags far behind dslrs in a studio situation in terms of stopped down AF. Hopefully the A7r3 fixes it, because this camera has gotten my attention with dual card slots and a better buffer.


They actually didn't fix any existing lens focus shift. The firmware only provided the option to focus at f/2 when shooting at small apertures (and deal with any focus shift) OR shoot a working aperture.
The current firmware allows turning Settings Effect "OFF" when shooting stopped-down, making affected lenses able to "focus" very close to wide open. (usually at f/2). That was not possible before this firmware and studio shooters were selling their 85/1.4 GM lenses.



Oct 27, 2017 at 01:15 PM
mjm6
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p.37 #3 · p.37 #3 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


Fred Miranda wrote:
I was thinking that perhaps the extra OSS stabilization will be more beneficial to video.


Video, what's that? Hahaha...

I don't even shoot for color most of the time, let alone moving pictures.



Oct 27, 2017 at 01:17 PM
Matt Grum
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p.37 #4 · p.37 #4 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


ken.vs.ryu wrote:
What would you trade for a higher mp body?


I'd trade the speed and AF improvements... still want the joystick and dual card slots!



stevesanacore wrote:
Fred, I agree that lens performance may just be the limiting option moving past 50mp. If that is the case, lots of Sony, Canon and Nikon fans are going to be disappointed. If it means an entire new generation of lenses again, the cost may be prohibitive and heading into medium format territory.


Current lenses will be good for much more than 50MP.

mjm6 wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that the manufacturing tolerances in 35mm optics are being tested with the current technology sensors, and I doubt there is much to be gained without considerable change in manufacturing


Again I disagree - three out of the 4 native lenses I own are already outresolving the 42 MP sensor wide open (ZA 35/2.8, ZA 55/1.8 Batis 85/1.8). Stopped down they could go much higher.



elimoss wrote:
At 75MP full frame -- diffraction sets in around f/5.6 (on a well corrected lens).


Diffraction starts to set in at f/5.6, but the diffraction PSF is very well behaved and thus amenable to correction by deconvolution.

Also a 75MP Bayer sensor is ony 18.75MP in the worst case (strongly red or blue coloured objects).




Oct 27, 2017 at 01:18 PM
TakenWild
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p.37 #5 · p.37 #5 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


There is still hope Sony isn’t lying about 15stops.
These early testings coud be wrong due to how the files are been read. I don’t know how William Claff’ has read these files, but it would be interesting to know what his thoughts are.
I’ve tried the Sony raw converter on the A7r3 files and there a lot of problems. I can’t seem to export them. It crashes every few minutes reading the files. If you push the shadows weird artefacts appear unlike anything I’ve seen. Well, I live in hope anyway.







Oct 27, 2017 at 01:37 PM
tn1krr
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p.37 #6 · p.37 #6 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


TakenWild wrote:
There is still hope Sony isn’t lying about 15stops.
These early testings coud be wrong due to how the files are been read. I don’t know how William Claff’ has read these files, but it would be interesting to know what his thoughts are.
I’ve tried the Sony raw converter on the A7r3 files and there a lot of problems. I can’t seem to export them. It crashes every few minutes reading the files. If you push the shadows weird artefacts appear unlike anything I’ve seen. Well, I live in hope anyway.


To my understanding bclaff does not even use a RAW converter for his analysis. There is no need to demosaic the RAW files for DR analysis so any of this "but converter XYZ does better job" we sometimes hear does not apply at all here.


Edited on Oct 29, 2017 at 04:34 PM · View previous versions



Oct 27, 2017 at 01:43 PM
bclaff_too
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p.37 #7 · p.37 #7 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


TakenWild wrote:
There is still hope Sony isn’t lying about 15stops.
Who am I to kill your dreams
TakenWild wrote:
These early testings could be wrong due to how the files are been read. I don’t know how William Claff’ has read these files, but it would be interesting to know what his thoughts are.
...

All 140 files that I processed were uncompressed ARWs.
It's "trivial" to read an uncompressed file; so I'm confident there's no error there.



Oct 27, 2017 at 01:46 PM
bclaff_too
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p.37 #8 · p.37 #8 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


tn1krr wrote:
To my understanding bclaff does not even use a RAW converter for his analysis. There is no need to demosaic the RAW files for DR analysis so any of this "but converter XYZ does better job" we sometimes see does not apply at all here.

Exactly. And I find it a bit strange that anyone would be waiting for a "converter" to perform their analysis.
As for "production model", I have never seen any difference in my tests of pre-production versus production cameras.



Oct 27, 2017 at 01:50 PM
elimoss
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p.37 #9 · p.37 #9 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


Sensor design and pixel size does play a role in diffraction. I agree it is mostly about the lens -- how much stopping down improves abberations vs. increases diffraction. However, pixel size and wavelength of light plays a role http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm

I think we all agree on the main point, which is that we could have a 75MP sensor and end up in many situations with only marginal increases in effective resolution compared to what we have now.



Oct 27, 2017 at 01:53 PM
k-h.a.w
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p.37 #10 · p.37 #10 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


IIRC the Sony A7r2 and A7r3 both have an electronic shutter speed of about 1/12 or 1/13 s.
The Olympus E-M1.2 has an electronic shutter speed of 1/60 s.
The Sony A9 has an electronic shutter speed of 1/150 s.

For Hummingbirds in Flight (HIFs) I have noticed severe rolling shutter artifacts from both the A7r2 and E-M1.2.
In contrast rolling shutter artifacts of the A9 are mostly non-existent, so I can use the electronic shutter for HIFs.

Following is a demonstration of rolling shutter artifacts of Bluebirds in Flight (BIFs), taken with the E-M1.2.
https://photos.smugmug.com/KHW/Pics-by-Date/2017-10-26-E-M1230040-PRO-Backyards-Birds-Rolling-Shutter/i-VLFg4q9/1/ee19eb64/X2/_A267122%20Rolling%20shutter%20artifacts_3748x3046_2658x2160-X2.jpg
Of course, all 3 above mentioned cameras have also a mechanical shutter with a shutter speed of 1/300 s that avoids rolling shutter artifacts. The A9 is my only camera though I feel comfortable using its silent shutter for HIFs and BIFs.

K-H.



Oct 27, 2017 at 01:54 PM
elimoss
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p.37 #11 · p.37 #11 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


My electrical engineering days are long behind me but I get really confused about how we could have 15 stops DR in a 14 bit space if the values are recorded linearly. You can only have 0 to 2^14 - 1. Maybe there is a curve or something else applied and it's not linear the way I think it is.


Oct 27, 2017 at 01:58 PM
Arka
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p.37 #12 · p.37 #12 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


johnvanr wrote:
Fair enough. I’ve always made clear that ergonomics is subjective, but you can’t deny that there are many Sony users who say they shoot Sony despite the sub-par ergonomics compared to their previous cameras and who express a desire to get used to it over time, instead of calling on Sony to fix it in future releases.


I would agree that the early iterations of the A7 had some ergonomic choices that were perhaps more objectively questionable. That said, I'm not even sure how much of what I disliked about the first generation A7's could be attributed to "ergonomics" per se. Yes I thought the menus were a bit clunky, but I was also put off by the camera's overall shooting performance (AF, read/write speeds), build quality, loud clattering shutter, and poor battery life. The A9 resolves every single one of those issues to my satisfaction while not costing me anything in terms of ergonomics vis-a-vis my Nikon or Leica bodies. And because it's not the same as either of those systems, it does take some getting used to. For example, I did enjoy the fact that my Leica M240 was much simpler than my A9. But the M240 also had far fewer features that matter to capturing the images I wanted - and even with those fewer features, the camera's software and hardware performance was truly pitiful given it's cost, and the fact that it came out in 2012. As for my Nikons, I do enjoy their robustness and the inclusion of physical buttons and switches for a variety of often used (and occasionally barely used) functions. But I hate how much larger my Nikons are than the A9. My D800E was noticeably larger and my old D3x simply dwarfed it.

The A9 gives me the size of the Leica (and access to its lenses) with the shooting characteristics and electronics reliability I have come to expect from dSLR incumbents like Nikon. It does so while improving over its Sony predecessors in numerous ways, such as (1) a bigger battery, (2) blackout-free shooting, (3) custom memory modes and lots of programmable custom buttons, (4) a second dial for drive and AF modes, (5) stupidly high frame rates, (6) stupidly good AF with nearly 100% viewfinder coverage (!!), (7) a really fabulous EVF, (8) nearly instantaneous everything with respect to shooting and image review, (9) joystick, and (10) a much more robust and solid-feeling camera body.

Are there things I would like to see improved? Sure! The control wheel in the back is way too sensitive to accidental "adjustment." The camera power saving is too finicky - a smartphone connecting to the camera's WiFi transmitter will keep the camera from powering off, as will leaving it free to accept input from a remote. I'd like to be able to put more feature preferences into memory banks 1-3. But none of these are deal-breakers for me - it's a platform that still enables and even encourages me to consistently make the best images I can.



Oct 27, 2017 at 02:00 PM
bclaff_too
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p.37 #13 · p.37 #13 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


elimoss wrote:
My electrical engineering days are long behind me but I get really confused about how we could have 15 stops DR in a 14 bit space if the values are recorded linearly. You can only have 0 to 2^14 - 1. Maybe there is a curve or something else applied and it's not linear the way I think it is.


Executive summary:
1) Individual values are integral but multiple values are sampled to get the standard deviation so it's an error to think of the values as integral; they are decimal.
2) So hypothetically dynamic range could be infinite except that Quantization Error makes it impossible to actually measure the read noise below a certain level.
3) Although theoretically quantization error is limited to 1/sqrt(12), about 0.29DN, in practice (because of the fluctuation of bias values aka BlackLevel) things break down at about 0.6 to 0.7 DN (seen in practice and simulated)
4) Therefore, in practice, you get about n+0.5 stops maximum dynamic range out of an n-bit Analog to Digital Converter (ADC).


Edited on Oct 27, 2017 at 02:05 PM · View previous versions



Oct 27, 2017 at 02:04 PM
sungphoto
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p.37 #14 · p.37 #14 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


Fred Miranda wrote:
They actually didn't fix any existing lens focus shift. The firmware only provided the option to focus at f/2 when shooting at small apertures and deal with any focus shift OR shoot a working aperture.
The current firmware allows turning Settings Effect "OFF" when shooting stopped-down, making affected lenses able to "focus" very close to wide open. (usually at f/2). That was not possible before this firmware and studio shooters were selling their 85/1.4 GM lenses.


Ha I was more irate with my GM 70-200 f2.8 not being able to focus in a studio than the GM 85 f1.4 as I use the tele far more. I have noticed a slight improvement with the firmware update and adapted canon glass, but it still isn't acceptable for me for professional use.



Oct 27, 2017 at 02:04 PM
rji2goleez
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p.37 #15 · p.37 #15 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


ken.vs.ryu wrote:
What would you trade for a higher mp body?


I would trade speed for higher megapixels. I use the A6500 for speed capture (wildlife) so I can deal with a slower frame rate. Everything else will offer gains for the landscape/urbanscape/still life shooter. Pixel shift will be very interesting to see the gains it offers. I'm excited for that!



Oct 27, 2017 at 02:20 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.37 #16 · p.37 #16 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


It does not seem like the A7R3 is going to provide any significant IQ improvement for landscape shooters. Is it time to look into Fuji's GFX system?
You know me, I'm not a brand loyalist.



Oct 27, 2017 at 02:22 PM
GMPhotography
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p.37 #17 · p.37 #17 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


Fred go Hasselblad

But be careful here it’s very close. There is gain no doubt but I would test the Pixel stuff first. It may actually beat it with great glass. That’s a test I want to see

Edited on Oct 27, 2017 at 02:40 PM · View previous versions



Oct 27, 2017 at 02:26 PM
DannyBurkPhoto
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p.37 #18 · p.37 #18 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


Fred Miranda wrote:
It does not seem like the A7R3 is going to provide any significant IQ improvement for landscape shooters. Is it time to look into Fuji's GFX system?
You know me, I'm not a brand loyalist.


Exactly what I thought a little while ago - but wait till the 100 MP model comes out!



Oct 27, 2017 at 02:26 PM
Viramati
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p.37 #19 · p.37 #19 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


k-h.a.w wrote:
IIRC the Sony A7r2 and A7r3 both have an electronic shutter speed of about 1/12 or 1/13 s.
The Olympus E-M1.2 has an electronic shutter speed of 1/60 s.
The Sony A9 has an electronic shutter speed of 1/150 s.

For Hummingbirds in Flight (HIFs) I have noticed severe rolling shutter artifacts from both the A7r2 and E-M1.2.
In contrast rolling shutter artifacts of the A9 are mostly non-existent, so I can use the electronic shutter for HIFs.

Following is a demonstration of rolling shutter artifacts of Bluebirds in Flight (BIFs), taken with the E-M1.2.
https://photos.smugmug.com/KHW/Pics-by-Date/2017-10-26-E-M1230040-PRO-Backyards-Birds-Rolling-Shutter/i-VLFg4q9/1/ee19eb64/X2/_A267122%20Rolling%20shutter%20artifacts_3748x3046_2658x2160-X2.jpg
Of course, all 3 above mentioned cameras have also
...Show more

This is very disappointing as one of the main things that I had been hoping for is an improvement in silent shutter shooting with the A7rIII. so apart from rolling shutter will it still so the same sort of colour banding as the the A7rII at higher shutter speeds in fluorescent lighting?



Oct 27, 2017 at 02:27 PM
GMPhotography
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p.37 #20 · p.37 #20 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!


elimoss wrote:
Sensor design and pixel size does play a role in diffraction. I agree it is mostly about the lens -- how much stopping down improves abberations vs. increases diffraction. However, pixel size and wavelength of light plays a role http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm

I think we all agree on the main point, which is that we could have a 75MP sensor and end up in many situations with only marginal increases in effective resolution compared to what we have now.


Phase one 80 mpx back on a Tech cam with Rodenstock lens we got F 5.6 before diffraction kicked in. Same setup 60 mpx back ( mine) F8 on a good day. But more like f7

That’s kick in but you can shoot further down but focus stacking was a big part of life in those days. Those where CCD backs back than.



Oct 27, 2017 at 02:32 PM
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