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Archive 2017 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

retrofocus
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

alundeb wrote:
I agree with you when it comes to the 24-28 mm range. The 17-40L is sharp corner-corner on the 5DS R at 24-28 mm, and with quite low CA, lower than many of the primes mentioned here. I found the 16-35 F4 IS better at the widest end though. Both these lenses are very good in the middle range and that is not where I am looking at primes for better performance stopped down.

Then we are in continuous disagreement - I never limited the value of the 17-40/4 to a small range which is nonsense. I use it mostly especially at 17-21 mm where corners are excellent when stopped down. No problem there - funny that you Canon guys want to push people always to the latest and newest lens stuff as it seems and make the older lens versions appear less sufficient which were praised by the same people when no newer lens version was availbale.

Oct 02, 2017 at 06:08 AM

alundeb
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

retrofocus wrote:
nonsense.

retrofocus wrote:
funny that you Canon guys

Thanks for adding such useful nuances to the lens discussion.

Why all these hateful responses to my posts? I have not done things like you said, and it is a fact that the 16-35 is better than the 17-40, esp at the wide end.

Oct 02, 2017 at 06:34 AM

jcolwell
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

retrofocus wrote:
...I use it mostly especially at 17-21 mm where corners are excellent when stopped down. No problem there - funny that you Canon guys want to push people always to the latest and newest lens stuff as it seems and make the older lens versions appear less sufficient ...

Do you have any examples of excellent corners from the 17-40/4L at 17-21mm that you could show us ?

Here's what I got; Canon 5D, f/8, ISO 100, tripod, best of three, etc. Clockwise from top left; Tokina AT-X 17/3.5, Canon 17-40 at 17mm, SMC Pentax 18/3.5, Caon 17-40/4L at 20mm, and Voigtlander 20/3.5 SL II.

Canon 5D, f/8, ISO 100: Tokina AT-X 17/3.5, Canon 17-40/4L IS (17mm and 20mm), SMC Pentax 18/3.5, and Voigtlander 20/3.5 SL II

Red rectangle shows approx. location for 17mm, 18mm, and 20mm 100% crops, shown above

Oct 02, 2017 at 07:34 AM

jcolwell
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

alundeb wrote:
Why all these hateful responses to my posts?

Fits my expectation. Aggressive personal attacks. Highly critical. No supporting evidence. At least, he's consistent.

Oct 02, 2017 at 07:36 AM

retrofocus
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

jcolwell wrote:
Fits my expectation. Aggressive personal attacks. Highly critical. No supporting evidence. At least, he's consistent.

Highly critical - yes, especially since you always seem to have a problem with anybody who criticizes Canon gear (reason why remains speculation, but I have a pretty good idea). Sorry, I am not replying any further to an of your or alundeb's requests since it is a waste of my time to do have discussion with both of you. Consider both of you blocked.

Oct 02, 2017 at 07:59 AM

jcolwell
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

Thank you.

Oct 02, 2017 at 08:02 AM

Gunzorro
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

rsrsrs wrote:
Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner
at least at f 8 or 11 , and not to expensive?
And if possible no moustache distortion.

Since the topic has now veered into Alt/non-Alt territory, I'll kick in my personal comments.

If you own Canon DSLR, or have an AF adapter for Sony, I really can't think of a more cost effective way to meet your needs than the EF 17-40/4L. They often sell at or below $400 here on the B&S.

I've owned one, and although I found my concurrent 16-35/2.8L II to be sharper overall, I mainly sold the 17-40 because it was redundant at that point. I still occasionally consider re-buying it at the low prices today simply as a "knock-around" lens that I wouldn't be worried about.

Granted, corners are never absolutely sharp and there is corresponding strong vignetting that doesn't help. But that is in the most extreme corners and most severe at wider apertures. Using f/8-13, you'll get respectable results in a relatively small package. Much more versatile than a single focal length.

I'm not advising against buying inexpensive Alt lenses (I've got plenty of Nikon AIS and Canon FD on hand to prove that!), but for practical imaging on a budget, the 17-40 is still an "L" lens, and that means something even on Canon's lesser "L" models.

Oct 02, 2017 at 08:17 AM

alundeb
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

retrofocus wrote:
Sorry, I am not replying any further to an of your or alundeb's requests since it is a waste of my time to do have discussion with both of you. Consider both of you blocked.

Thanks for the information. I guess I don't have any problem with that. I will continue having interesting discussions with the rest of the poeple here, and FYI the blocking is not mutual.

Oct 02, 2017 at 08:21 AM

rscheffler
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

I wonder if there is just a broader range of copy variation with the older Canon UWA zooms like the 17-40, 16-35II and earlier?

I owned the 20-35/2.8L in the film days and transitioned to digital with the 17-35/2.8, got the first 16-35/2.8, the 16-35II and finally the 16-35/4. I recently briefly shot with the 16-35/2.8III. Each upgrade was partly due to chasing the hope for better across-frame performance/sharpness, particularly at the wider end of the zoom range. IMO the later lenses were better, if they were good copies. I think my 16-35/2.8 v.1 was, once stopped down a fair amount, to the point I kept it many years into ownership of the v.2, with which I had a love-hate relationship and many trips to Canon to try to fix seriously poor peripheral performance and field curvature at the widest end. During this time I had loaners from Canon and one of those was particularly memorable as extremely good compared to my copy. My now current DSLR UWA staple, the 16-35/4, is definitely the best of those I've owned, though it does fall apart a bit at 35mm, even stopped down, which disappointed me a bit. My brief flirtation with the latest 16-35III has me very curious because it seems to be really excellent.

Anyway, back to my point... the differences in opinion maybe shouldn't be looked at as right vs. wrong, rather as examples of personal experience which may/will differ depending on factors, including copy variation.

Nice to see this discussion here, reminiscent of those typical of the Alt forum some time ago.

Oct 02, 2017 at 11:39 AM

sebboh
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

arduluth wrote:
You're killing me with the difference at f/5.6... I've avoided playing the reversed PCX game since it's unnecessary on the G 45 and CV 35/1.7... Your crops make it look even better than what I initially saw in the thread...

Anyone selling these ready to use yet? Any issues reaching infinity on a standard adapter? Feel free to ignore, probably already discussed... But wow.

sorry, i sold my two 1.5m pcx filters already (since i have a sensor modded camera now). it sounds like optosigma might be faster at getting them out now. getting them attached just costs a few bucks in stepup rings, how to do it is outlined on phillipreeves' website: https://phillipreeve.net/blog/rangefinder-wide-angle-lenses-on-a7-cameras-problems-and-solutions/#Zeiss_ZM_28mm_28_Biogon

arduluth wrote:
Regarding the OP's question - more votes for the OM 24/2.8 and OM 28/3.5. They meet the OP's criteria of being sharp into the corners. Neither are nearly as sharp as the FE 28/2 in the center or midzone at f/4.

are your copies of the OMs actually sharper than the FE 28/2 in the corners at f/8 or f/11? mine were not.

Oct 02, 2017 at 11:55 AM

alundeb
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

rscheffler wrote:
I wonder if there is just a broader range of copy variation with the older Canon UWA zooms like the 17-40, 16-35II and earlier?

I owned the 20-35/2.8L in the film days and transitioned to digital with the 17-35/2.8, got the first 16-35/2.8, the 16-35II and finally the 16-35/4. I recently briefly shot with the 16-35/2.8III. Each upgrade was partly due to chasing the hope for better across-frame performance/sharpness, particularly at the wider end of the zoom range. IMO the later lenses were better, if they were good copies. I think my 16-35/2.8 v.1 was, once stopped down a fair...Show more →

I agree that the Canon 16-35 f/4 L IS gets markably weaker at 35 mm. It is a bit disappointing. My main point about bringing in zoom lenses in this context, is that many of them have sweet spots in which they rival expensive primes. The sweet spot of the 16-35 4 is around 20mm, and for the 17-40 it is around 28. Since it is also relative light and affordable these days, it can be considered as an alternative to a prime for other reasons than flexibility.

Oct 02, 2017 at 12:07 PM

timballic
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

jcolwell wrote:
Do you have any examples of excellent corners from the 17-40/4L at 17-21mm that you could show us ?

Here's what I got; Canon 5D, f/8, ISO 100, tripod, best of three, etc. Clockwise from top left; Tokina AT-X 17/3.5, Canon 17-40 at 17mm, SMC Pentax 18/3.5, Caon 17-40/4L at 20mm, and Voigtlander 20/3.5 SL II.

Those look very similar to my results Jim, though I haven't done a direct comparison like this, of the same subject, with all together. However, after 3 copies I found a CV 20/3.5 that was much better in the corners at F/8 than the above ;o) It nearly equalled my OM 21/3.5 and bettered the NAiS 20/2.8, and much better than the two EF 17-40's I've had.
I've only got that CV 20/3.5, and OM 21/3.5, Tokina 17/3.5 and Batis 18 in this area of FL now. The "humble" Tokina always impresses me, (though mine is pre "AT-X" with 11:9 formula rather than 10:8)

(By the way, what application do you use to compare several together like that, it beats my screenshots of Lr "compare" mode)

Oct 03, 2017 at 08:43 AM

arduluth
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

sebboh wrote:
are your copies of the OMs actually sharper than the FE 28/2 in the corners at f/8 or f/11? mine were not.

I'd have to check, I never did a well controlled comparison of the corners, not really a priority. I care more about when each edge gets sharp, mostly for stitching, but not much about deep corners. I think at f/8 my FE 28/2 isn't great in the deep corners, but it's admittedly something I've not looked at much. What did make an impact is how much more detail the FE 28/2 has in the large center region when doing a rendering comparison with my OM 28/3.5, OM 24/2.8 MC, and FD 28/2.8.

Oct 03, 2017 at 10:30 AM

sebboh
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

arduluth wrote:
I'd have to check, I never did a well controlled comparison of the corners, not really a priority. I care more about when each edge gets sharp, mostly for stitching, but not much about deep corners. I think at f/8 my FE 28/2 isn't great in the deep corners, but it's admittedly something I've not looked at much. What did make an impact is how much more detail the FE 28/2 has in the large center region when doing a rendering comparison with my OM 28/3.5, OM 24/2.8 MC, and FD 28/2.8.

yeah, my issue with the OMs wasn't a dramatic fall off in the corners, but just a generally mediocre contrast and resolution from the midzone to the corner.

Oct 03, 2017 at 11:38 AM

arduluth
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

sebboh wrote:
yeah, my issue with the OMs wasn't a dramatic fall off in the corners, but just a generally mediocre contrast and resolution from the midzone to the corner.

Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment of the OM 28s and 24s. That generally seems to be the trade off Olympus made (larger field of sharpness in exchange for lower contrast, less bite, and lower central sharpness). My FDn 24/2 noticably better (contrast and bite) vs the Oly 24/2.8 in terms of contrast and bite, but it's less of a difference than you'd see when comparing the OM 24/2.8 to a modern lens like the FE 28/2 or Batis 25/2. That is, I think they were somewhat limited in those days with what they could get out of wide angles.

EDIT: Looking back at a comparison made between some MF 28s (Vivitar [Kiron] 28/2.5, FD 28/2.8 SC [BL], and OM 28/3.5), and I have to say that it's worth checking out the FD 28mm f/2.8. I'd get the FDn personally, but I got this FD (BL) for free. Despite being faster, it's ahead of the OM 28/3.5 in terms of contrast, sharpness, and bite at all stops. The circle of sharpness is a bit bigger than the OM 28/3.5 at all stops as well. This surprised me at the time, given the reputation of the OM 28/3.5. Both are small can be had for $25-50. Both need f/8 Flipping between the OM and FD a light veil is lifted, and you can see the additional detail fill in, like the image is finishing it's loading. The FD's lead is maintained even at f/11, where the OM gets a little nervous in the deep corners.

Oct 03, 2017 at 11:44 AM

jcolwell
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

timballic wrote:
... after 3 copies I found a CV 20/3.5 that was much better in the corners at F/8 than the above ;o) It nearly equalled my OM 21/3.5...

Hi Tim,

I believe it. My CV 20 was plenty sharp in the central areas. My Oly 21/3.5 was better (I owned four), but I kept the SMC Pentax-M 20/4, because it's noticeably sharper in the central areas (zones A & B, not quite to the edge of the frame). I'm on the lookout for a SMC Pentax 20/4, just in case.

timballic wrote:
...The "humble" Tokina always impresses me, (though mine is pre "AT-X" with 11:9 formula rather than 10:8)

I also owned the Tokina SL 17/3.5 RMC, which wasn't as good as the AT-X.

timballic wrote:
(By the way, what application do you use to compare several together like that, it beats my screenshots of Lr "compare" mode)

It's just screen shots of multiple windows opened in PS CS6. It's a pretty handraulic process, but it works great. First, I screen the test images, usually to select which one is the best-of-three (I usually shoot three exposures for each condition). The image that I select is saved as .psd and named something descriptive, like "EF 24-70 f4 L IS at 50mm f8 IMG_filennn.psd". This filename appears in the PS window title area. So, I open the image for the first condition (say, "M5 12mm EF-M 11-22 IMG_...") and size it to somewhere between 2" and 4" wide (usually square-ish), depending on how many windows I plan to show, in total. Then, I open the image for the next condition, size its window 'over' the first one (to match sizes), and then move it right, or down, or where ever. Once all of the windows are set (usually between three and six), I set each window to 100%, and use the Navigator window to place the view in each panel (i.e. each condition) to the same place. Doesn't take long, once you get used to the process. Also, it's helps you get to know each image, which is good, because that's the point of the whole exercise.

Oct 03, 2017 at 03:10 PM

timballic
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

jcolwell wrote:

It's just screen shots of multiple windows opened in PS CS6. It's a pretty handraulic process, but it works great. First, I screen the test images, usually to select which one is the best-of-three (I usually shoot three exposures for each condition). The image that I select is saved as .psd and named something descriptive, like "EF 24-70 f4 L IS at 50mm f8 IMG_filennn.psd". This filename appears in the PS window title area. So, I open the image for the first condition (say, "M5 12mm EF-M 11-22 IMG_...") and size it to somewhere between 2" and 4" wide...Show more →

Thanks Jim, not owning PS. I'll probably have to keep using screenshots of "compare" view in Lr ;o)

I have two RMC 17/3.5's, one is an early model with silver ring at front, like early OM lenses, and is not as sharp as a much later copy, but for use with my IR converted A7, the early model doesn't have hot spots and, the later one does.

Copy variation makes such a difference, the Pentax-M 20/4 I tried was pretty poor, anywhere near the corners.

Oct 04, 2017 at 06:09 AM

Coltrane
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

Appreciate the post Jim. I've always thought the Tokina 17mm 3.5 was an underrated lens. I've had several copies over the years. I once tested an RMC copy against the Tokina 11-16mm 2.8 (at 16mm). The 17mm had slightly sharper corners.

Oct 04, 2017 at 07:24 AM

rsrsrs
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

in the Ende i bought the canon 20-35mm 3.5-4.5 USM for just 125€.
in landscapes it is never really sharp in corners. but indoors with closer focus distances at about 5-10 meters with f11 it is really good in corners. Since it has nearly no mustache distorsion it is very easy to correct the picture.
With commlite adapter AF on the A7 is awful slow better do MF. but everything else is working nicely.
cause I don't do landscape shooting its exactly what I wanted.

Oct 12, 2017 at 01:16 AM

sculptormic
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Is there any alt 28mm or 24mm lens that is sharp from corner to corner

I do most of my work on the K-1 with the Zeiss 25/2.8. Couldn't be more happy. Just bought the Pentax K 28/3.5. Seems to be a lovely lens for overall sharpness.

Oct 12, 2017 at 04:20 AM

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