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Archive 2017 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled

  
 
noborg
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


(I have a new Sony A9, which I'm comparing with my Canon 1Dx Mark II)

Much has been said about the blackout-free display when shooting continuously with the electronic shutter.
Personally, I never found the blackout to be a problem with the 1Dx (mechanical shutter) - it happens so fast that it's not really disruptive, and it doesn't interfere at all with knowing what you're shooting when panning the camera.

Regardless, If I shoot with the A9 mechanical shutter in any continuous mode (L/M/H), it doesn't just blackout for an instant, it just freezes completely between shots. This renders the camera useless if you want to shoot while panning. In terms of the A9 being a DSLR killer, that's a show stopper.

I am hoping that I have overlooked a setting or workaround, so I would appreciate any input. (Note that I do have auto-review set to OFF, as I discovered that auto-review results in a similar freeze/lag problem when shooting continuously with the electronic shutter.)

Why do I want to shoot continuously with the mechanical shutter? The main reason is when I need ISO > 25,600. I shoot live music in dim lighting. That raises another question: Does anyone know why the ISO maximum is 25,600 when shooting with the electronic shutter?

js
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Jul 11, 2017 at 11:05 AM
randomguy
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


The A9 is practically ISO invariant at these ISOs so unless you rely on OOC JPEGs you can just shoot at ISO 25600, turn on DRO 5 or something if the EVF is to dim and push the files in post.


Jul 11, 2017 at 11:17 AM
Mystik
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


Are you using native or adapted glass?

I shoot primarily with the mechanical shutter and am finding the opposite of what you're experiencing. I'm actually impressed with how the AF system maintains focus lock between shots even with the mechanical shutter...this means that it does t have to re-acquire focus between shots.

I suspect that theres something in the settings. I'll take a look when I get home this evening.



Jul 11, 2017 at 11:32 AM
noborg
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


Thanks for replying; glad to hear you don't see this. Yes, I'm shooting with native glass - FE 2.8/24-70 GM. (FYI, I just received the new Rokinon 35mm - incredibly light and unobtrusive. Is this perhaps a plastic lens? Autofocus works fine. Haven't studied images yet.

I'm also glad to hear you shoot with the mechanical shutter. I find the advantages of the electronic shutter really get in the way when I shoot music - e.g., I can't see that ridiculously-faint indicator that the shutter has fired. As there's no mechanical feedback, I have no idea how many continuous shots I'm taking. On another subject, do you use auto-iso? Manual with auto-iso is my preferred mode, with back focus. But the display doesn't show you the ISO while changing aperture/shutter - just says "auto ISO". It only shows you the ISO when you meter, so I have to move a finger and check. This doesn't seem necessary, as the camera is metering constantly - e.g., in aperture mode it shows the shutter instantly when you change aperture - no need to explicitly meter.

Thanks again.

js



Jul 11, 2017 at 11:53 AM
noborg
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


Thanks for the reply randomguy. I do shoot raw, but in my (limited, so far) experience I do see differences as the ISO increases from 25K. I'll look more carefully. That said, there are other reasons I like mechanical (see my response to mystik).


Jul 11, 2017 at 11:56 AM
mogul
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


noborg wrote:
Thanks for the reply randomguy. I do shoot raw, but in my (limited, so far) experience I do see differences as the ISO increases from 25K. I'll look more carefully. That said, there are other reasons I like mechanical (see my response to mystik).


It probably is going to be tough for you to get along with this camera since you are used to a film camera with a digital back and all its analog mechanical feedback. I would slow everything down until you are comfortable with the operation of this completely electronic devise.



Jul 11, 2017 at 12:01 PM
TT1000
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


It doesn't seem like the camera for you. Do you want to sell it ? PM me.


Jul 11, 2017 at 12:06 PM
lightskyland
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


Use the electronic shutter. Set maximum ISO to 25600 and go from there.


Jul 11, 2017 at 12:08 PM
noborg
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


mogul wrote:
It probably is going to be tough for you to get along with this camera since you are used to a film camera with a digital back and all its analog mechanical feedback. I would slow everything down until you are comfortable with the operation of this completely electronic devise.


Thanks - that's probably good advice, and I'll withhold judgement. But it seems unlikely I'll get used to not seeing the very faint box indicating a shot has been taken. When I press the shutter button at continuous M or H, I have no idea how many shots have been taken (would likely be different if I were shooting birds against a blue sky).

js



Jul 11, 2017 at 12:13 PM
joelRichards
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


Have you tried the different notification modes? Some are more visible than others in certain lighting conditions. I do think a numerical buffer counter would be helpful in shooting mode. It seems it is only visible in review (but perhaps I missed something?)


Jul 11, 2017 at 05:17 PM
oddjobprime
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


I rely on 'Shoot. Start Disp.' set to ON to at least know when I've starting shooting. Ironically, this creates a blackout on the first frame to make it obvious that you're shooting.

Menu: Camera 2, Page 7, item 2.




Jul 11, 2017 at 08:07 PM
noborg
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


oddjobprime wrote:
I rely on 'Shoot. Start Disp.' set to ON to at least know when I've starting shooting. Ironically, this creates a blackout on the first frame to make it obvious that you're shooting.

Menu: Camera 2, Page 7, item 2.



This is helpful. Thanks. Ironic indeed! This may sound heretical, but an option for brief blackout on each frame would be ideal in some circumstances - no doubt it would be named "DSLR option"

js



Jul 11, 2017 at 10:52 PM
noborg
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


joelRichards wrote:
Have you tried the different notification modes? Some are more visible than others in certain lighting conditions. I do think a numerical buffer counter would be helpful in shooting mode. It seems it is only visible in review (but perhaps I missed something?)


Thanks. I hadn't noticed these variations, and they are helpful depending on lighting conditions. But they're all hard to see when there's a lot going on in the scene wrt lighting and motion, so I'd love to see something a lot more obtrusive. It would be easy to add, so I'll keep my fingers crossed.




Jul 11, 2017 at 10:57 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


I believe there is an option to turn on a fake shutter sound which would then give you better shooting feedback. Unless you are trying to go completely silent which is a big reason to shoot an A9 over a 1DX2. I'm sure the fake shutter sound will still be a lot less noisy than the 1DX2 shutter.

The A9 is basically ISO-less from ISO 1000 to ISO 51,200 based off of graphs on photonstophotos.net. If you only want to get to 51,200 then you can shoot at 25,600 and raise 1 stop in post for an identical result to shooting 51,200 in camera. After 51,200 the camera applies NR to the RAW so the data shows a big improvement in shooting native in camera but you may or may not be better off shooting native ISO depending on your NR techniques compared to the camera's.
Try comparing a controlled shot at 25,600 in electronic mode to a 51,200 in mechanical and raise the 25,600 1 stop in post. They should have the same amount of noise in the end.



Jul 12, 2017 at 09:10 AM
mb126
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


Sounds like you need an A7s anyway.


Jul 12, 2017 at 09:30 AM
oddjobprime
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


noborg wrote:
This is helpful. Thanks. Ironic indeed! This may sound heretical, but an option for brief blackout on each frame would be ideal in some circumstances - no doubt it would be named "DSLR option"

js


Not so crazy. If the blackout duration is kept to a minimum, I would personally try it just to see. However, since the absence of blackout is one of its major defining features, I doubt Sony would ever want to admit that a bit of blackout could actually be beneficial...



Jul 12, 2017 at 10:38 AM
noborg
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


arbitrage wrote:
I believe there is an option to turn on a fake shutter sound which would then give you better shooting feedback. Unless you are trying to go completely silent which is a big reason to shoot an A9 over a 1DX2. I'm sure the fake shutter sound will still be a lot less noisy than the 1DX2 shutter.

The A9 is basically ISO-less from ISO 1000 to ISO 51,200 based off of graphs on photonstophotos.net. If you only want to get to 51,200 then you can shoot at 25,600 and raise 1 stop in post for an identical result to shooting
...Show more

Thanks for both points, and thanks for the photonstophotos pointer - very interesting! I'm in the process of doing some ISO experiments to evaluate always shooting with max ISO of 25K, as you (and a couple of others) suggested. I'll post my conclusions on this thread.



Jul 12, 2017 at 03:56 PM
noborg
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


Several helpful posters suggested that, rather than shooting with the mechanical shutter at high ISOs (32000-204800), I consider shooting at ISO 25600 (max for the electronic shutter) and pushing the results in post. So I did the following experiment: I shot an image properly exposed at four ISOs - 25600, 51200, 102400, and 204800 (all with the same aperture, increasingly fast shutter speeds). I then fixed the ISO at 25600, and reshot the sequence (i.e., with the different shutter speeds). Thus, for each of the images properly exposed at 51200/102400/204800, I could compare them with (increasingly underexposed) images shot at 25600 and pushed in post (with noise reduction). Here’s what I found:

1. The pushed images were surprisingly good, even up to 204800 (not a surprise to those who suggested I do this!).

2. The pushed images were noticeably (but not terribly) less sharp than the properly exposed high-ISO images.

3. Colors in the pushed images were more accurate than the properly exposed high-ISO images, and increasingly so with ISO (the colors in the properly exposed ISO 204800 were noticeably less accurate than the ISO 25600 image pushed 3 stops). This was quite surprising to me. (Any idea why?)

So I agree that properly exposed high-ISO images are not significantly better than the 25600 pushed images, although there are sharpness and color tradeoffs to consider. Thanks for nudging me to see this firsthand.

That said, while shooting everything at 25600 would more-or-less work in principle, it doesn’t work in practice owing to workflow issues. Suppose I have 200 images shot at 25600 and therefore underexposed by up to 3 stops (I’m talking about shooting music in dim but changing light, and btw I’ve already obtained usable images with the A9 at 204800). My normal workflow is to cull and do initial ratings before any Lightroom adjustments (usually in Photo Mechanic, where it can be done quickly). But that won’t work in this case because many of the images will be underexposed – some by 3 stops – so I can’t properly evaluate them without pushing them, and I can’t push them simultaneously since the correct exposures vary from 0 to 3 stops. So I would end up having to touch a large number of the images before getting to the serious editing. That’s just too time consuming (and boring!).

My conclusion: I would happily shoot continuously with the mechanical shutter and high ISOs if I could. But I can’t because the viewfinder freezes between shots. Shooting everything at 25600 with the electronic shutter and pushing in post is a valid workaround, but it’s just that – a workaround that takes more work. I’m hoping that the viewfinder freezing between shots is happening because I’ve overlooked some settings (or perhaps that the camera is faulty). Otherwise, the A9 is limited in an unpleasant way that’s makes it unsuitable for professional use in this situation, a situation that the 1DxII handles very well (and with more shots per second).

Shooting with the mechanical shutter also avoids the issue I raised when starting this thread – it’s hard to tell when the electronic shutter fires. I tried all of the notification variations (thanks for pointing them out), but they all have the same problem – very hard to see (in my shooting situations) unless I really concentrate, which is a waste of brain cycles needed elsewhere.

I’m well aware that this is a special case – in other respects, I think the A9 is terrific, and I already prefer it to the 1DxII in many situations.

best,
js
http://www.jshorephoto.com



Jul 12, 2017 at 10:31 PM
noborg
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


Mystik wrote:
Are you using native or adapted glass?

I shoot primarily with the mechanical shutter and am finding the opposite of what you're experiencing. I'm actually impressed with how the AF system maintains focus lock between shots even with the mechanical shutter...this means that it does t have to re-acquire focus between shots.

I suspect that theres something in the settings. I'll take a look when I get home this evening.


Hi Mystik - sorry to bother you, but have you had a chance to check and see if the viewfinder/screen freeze between shutter actuations when shooting continuous mechanical shutter?

Thanks
js



Jul 13, 2017 at 02:35 PM
noborg
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Sony A9 continuous shooting with mechanical shutter - crippled


Mystik wrote:
Are you using native or adapted glass?

I shoot primarily with the mechanical shutter and am finding the opposite of what you're experiencing. I'm actually impressed with how the AF system maintains focus lock between shots even with the mechanical shutter...this means that it does t have to re-acquire focus between shots.

I suspect that theres something in the settings. I'll take a look when I get home this evening.


Hi Mystik (or anyone else please) - have you had a chance to check and see if the viewfinder/screen freezes between shutter actuations when shooting continuously with mechanical shutter?

Thanks
js



Jul 13, 2017 at 02:36 PM
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