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Archive 2017 · Leica 'M10"

  
 
rscheffler
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Leica 'M10"


AshNZ wrote:
I faffed about for 5 mins 'measuring' aspects of that image and comparing it to the M240 - it does appear thinner.


IDK... if the shutter speed dial is the same size as the M240, then the camera looks thinner. But... based on the hot shoe, which is an international standard size, and the amount of top plate in front of the hot shoe, the camera might be marginally thinner. The hot shoe appears to be right at the edge of the camera, whereas the M240's is perhaps a mm or two away from the edge.

At least from that angle the ISO dial looks OK.



Jan 11, 2017 at 01:38 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Leica 'M10"


The difference shouldn't be more than 2 mm at the most, which is quite considerable ergonomically.


Jan 11, 2017 at 02:28 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Leica 'M10"


You could be right considering how many describe the M240 as bloated in comparison to the virtually identically sized M9...


Jan 11, 2017 at 02:47 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Leica 'M10"




rscheffler wrote:
You could be right considering how many describe the M240 as bloated in comparison to the virtually identically sized M9...

Yeah, the difference between M9 and M240 is just 0.4mm when the thumb rest is not measured in.



Jan 11, 2017 at 04:15 AM
sebboh
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Leica 'M10"


uhoh7 wrote:
Go ahead, tell me all the reasons why this will never happen


because i really want it.




Jan 11, 2017 at 04:56 AM
ZhanMing12
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Leica 'M10"


I came close to buying the M240 several times but never did. Mostly because even at $4,000 for a used copy, the shortcomings seemed like too much. The biggest problem for me was the terrible EVF which essentially limits the M body to a 50mm/75mm body with a subpar 35mm experience (I wear fairly strong glasses and don't like shooting with contacts). I also found the sensor lacking for those who like to meter for highlights and push in post.

The M10 seems to fix the EVF problem; the T's EVF is great. But I'm disappointed that they didn't move to a 30MP+ sensor with better high ISO performance. Sony is rumored to have a 70MP sensor in the works (and the 7rII's 42MP version is fantastic). Hopefully the rumors are wrong and Leica isn't using the SL sensor in this body.



Jan 11, 2017 at 09:39 AM
Gary Clennan
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Leica 'M10"


ZhanMing12 wrote:
The biggest problem for me was the terrible EVF which essentially limits the M body to a 50mm/75mm body with a subpar 35mm experience (I wear fairly strong glasses and don't like shooting with contacts).


The Leica M platform is not centered around an EVF - it is about a superb OVF rangefinder experience. If your preference is an EVF, probably best if you choose another brand.



Jan 11, 2017 at 10:11 AM
naturephoto1
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Leica 'M10"


Gary Clennan wrote:
The Leica M platform is not centered around an EVF - it is about a superb OVF rangefinder experience. If your preference is an EVF, probably best if you choose another brand.


Or a Leica SL.

Rich



Jan 11, 2017 at 10:37 AM
ZhanMing12
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Leica 'M10"


Gary Clennan wrote:
The Leica M platform is not centered around an EVF - it is about a superb OVF rangefinder experience. If your preference is an EVF, probably best if you choose another brand.



At $6,500 (which is probably on the low side as far as brand new digital M's are concerned), users shouldn't have to make that choice. As for the OVF, why can't Leica implement a two-magnification RF so that I can shoot a 24/21mm lens without an external finder? Fuji manages to do it with a live view overlay *and* a pop-up display of the focus area.

naturephoto1 wrote:
Or a Leica SL.

Rich


I would if Leica made a reasonable attempt at mirrorless that's not massive (with even more massive native lenses).



Jan 11, 2017 at 10:48 AM
naturephoto1
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Leica 'M10"


ZhanMing12 wrote:
At $6,500 (which is probably on the low side as far as brand new digital M's are concerned), users shouldn't have to make that choice. As for the OVF, why can't Leica implement a two-magnification RF so that I can shoot a 24/21mm lens without an external finder? Fuji manages to do it with a live view overlay *and* a pop-up display of the focus area.

I would if Leica made a reasonable attempt at mirrorless that's not massive (with even more massive native lenses).


The Leica SL is not really that massive. It is larger than a Sony A7rII or an A7r but it is smaller than my Leica R8. The camera has a superb EVF, the best that I have ever seen and it works and balances extremetly well with Leica M and Leica R lenses. It is truly the Leica R solution that the M240 was not. It is just larger, heavier, without some of the capabilites, and MP that I wanted in a camera and of course it has a high price.

Rich




Jan 11, 2017 at 10:52 AM
Gary Clennan
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Leica 'M10"


ZhanMing12 wrote:
At $6,500 (which is probably on the low side as far as brand new digital M's are concerned), users shouldn't have to make that choice. As for the OVF, why can't Leica implement a two-magnification RF so that I can shoot a 24/21mm lens without an external finder? Fuji manages to do it with a live view overlay *and* a pop-up display of the focus area.


Have you tried out a digital Leica M before? As others have suggested, it really is the best way to see if it works for your own personal needs. Spend a month or two shooting with one - you just might like it. Also, you can shoot a 24mm and 21mm lens on the M without an external finder. 24mm is slightly bigger than the 28mm framelines and 21mm is basically the entire viewfinder with your eye pressed right up against it. Or you simply use the LCD if you want. If you use one for a while, it will certainly become second nature for you. Remember, with the Leica M you are paying more to have less features and gadgets. Anyway, it seems like you have already made your mind up...



Jan 11, 2017 at 10:57 AM
uhoh7
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Leica 'M10"


Gary Clennan wrote:
The Leica M platform is not centered around an EVF - it is about a superb OVF rangefinder experience. If your preference is an EVF, probably best if you choose another brand.


Actually the Leica M platform is centered around a bunch of small fantastic lenses, which are responsible for it's success. The RF has held the system back from the wider market, since the Nikon F appeared. It's image quality and a compact footprint, pure and simple which has kept Leica alive.

Heresy, right?

Listen, I'm a convert to RF. I love the RF. It's not why I bought the M9 at all. In fact I bought it IN SPITE of the RF, which for the first month I thought was utterly ridiculous. I bought the M9 because the A7 could not shoot the 28 cron or ZM18 correctly.

I think no doubt Leica should have a body as M6 like as possible. But why on earth can there not be another option, with modern choices for those great lenses? You don't have to buy one. The SL is very nice but way too big for me. A really tiny FF M would be useful for many many people. It probably has to have an EVF, not because they are so great, but they can be very small and light.

We actually will see one later this year, I bet you, from Konost.

But with the L mount, you could had AF for the M glass, which you and I don't really care that much about, but many others do. It's not to dis the RF people ask for EVF, it's to get back to the real Leica ethos: a mountain camera, which Oskar Barnack envisioned. He had no allegiance to RF whatever. It was the most practical at the time. Something smaller, lighter, he would have been all over it.

It's not RF or EVF, it's having both options which Leica already does, but no small camera. The M10 is great. It needs a skinny techie sister.



Jan 11, 2017 at 01:12 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Leica 'M10"


As always - it is always personal needs. I find the M240 fairly small, albeit a bit heavy. And there is no way I would have bought it without the RF....


Jan 11, 2017 at 01:29 PM
ZhanMing12
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Leica 'M10"


Gary Clennan wrote:
Have you tried out a digital Leica M before? As others have suggested, it really is the best way to see if it works for your own personal needs. Spend a month or two shooting with one - you just might like it. Also, you can shoot a 24mm and 21mm lens on the M without an external finder. 24mm is slightly bigger than the 28mm framelines and 21mm is basically the entire viewfinder with your eye pressed right up against it. Or you simply use the LCD if you want. If you use one for a while, it
...Show more

I have. I really like it when I have a 50mm on there. 75 is weird but I could probably get used to it. But if an M isn't straight up too expensive, it surely is for just shooting 50mm/75mm.

Leica could bring the M system to the modern world (just look at the S and Q). But they choose to not do so. I don't buy the "less is more" argument: features can be turned off, but you can't turn on what's already there. Leica lenses aren't just small and well-made, they have the performance to (sort of) justify the crazy price tags. Not so much for the M bodies (arguably the M9 was technically advanced for 2009, though).



Jan 11, 2017 at 01:51 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Leica 'M10"


ZhanMing12 wrote:
I don't buy the "less is more" argument: features can be turned off, but you can't turn on what's already there.


I happily pay a premium for less features. Guess this means you won't be buying the M-D?



Jan 11, 2017 at 03:36 PM
anselwannab
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Leica 'M10"


I'm getting more confused. If there isn't a big plus on the MPs, which is the least of my desired changes, what is this going to bring that a 240 doesn't have? Except for 'less'?

I agree with the lenses being the key. Even small Sony A7 bodies have huge lenses. Small primes are the key. People can rip on the Fuji cameras, but the tech in a $1200 X100 is pretty good. A Leica implementation for $6000 should be awesome. To me the Leica M system was about the maxing out of small form factor and image quality. I think they can do better.



Jan 11, 2017 at 09:32 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Leica 'M10"


IMO the M system is about balance.

It's a certain definition of 'high image quality' that may or may not be shared by others. To me it means really great (though not perfect) lenses for a camera that is the right size for the average 'western' male hand, designed for fluid, spontaneous handheld shooting thanks to the RF OVF.

What will the M10 bring? Probably what the M240 brought vs. the M9/M8: refinement. Especially since now Leica offers other camera lines to satisfy feature bloat (SL specifically).

The M9 in 2009 was really just a FF M8, which was developed before 2006. Leica admitted as much in an interview with Michael Reichmann at the time, stating the M9's guts were essentially the M8's due to limited in-house resources already dedicated to developing the S system (the M8/M9's guts were farmed out to a 3rd party partner). The Kodak CCD sensor tech also wasn't anything cutting edge, but that doesn't mean it wasn't good.

Having shot the M9 from late 2010 to early 2014, my impression of the transition from it to the M240 was like going from a circa 2002/2003 digital camera to one from the early 2010s. Everything about the electronics side of the M240 shooting experience was an improvement over the M9, to the point where it actually felt pretty much current... other than the center-only live view and the EVF's laggy-ness and tendency to lock up the camera at times. But then, live view isn't really a core M feature anyways.

As I probably already stated earlier, I'm hoping the 'M10' brings even better responsiveness, no pattern banding at higher ISOs, no weird shadow blocking/artificially high blackpoint (probably to mask banding) with accompanying weird green shadow shift... a much deeper, faster buffer and fluid live view/EVF performance for those times I want to use the EVF (such as for more accurate UWA framing).

It probably won't have revolutionary new features that will make me feel it will be an immediate must-have purchase. Rather, I'll soldier along with the M240 for another year or two and instead pick up a demo/refurb discounted M10, hopefully once most of the bugs have been squashed with firmware updates.

IMO 24MP is a decent sweet spot for current sensor tech in respect to dynamic range, colour quality and higher ISO performance. It's also somewhat forgiving for suboptimal handheld technique. The last thing I want is to feel like I need to shoot the M on a tripod to extract maximum IQ (well, I already kind of feel that way, but can usually get as good or close enough handheld). I guess there could be something said for shooting a theoretical 70MP and downsampling to improve ~24MP image quality. But I don't really care about that most of the time and don't want to deal with the storage premium of 50+MP files, especially if for some strange reason Leica decides not to offer lossless DNG compression (which I think is not an option for the Q and SL, IIRC).

ZhanMing12: the thing with buying from Leica is that they're not trying to be everything to everyone. Their motto is : Das Wesentliche - The Essentials. That implies just the necessary features... but for whom? They certainly don't seem to want to please everyone... though recently they've introduced the SL which should theoretically address a broader range of more mainstream photographic interests (but of course price point is a significant barrier). The M and S systems in particular, they're niche. The M lenses are small specifically because they're manual focus, manual aperture only. No, the M body is not the smallest out there, but it's made for an average hand size (probably average European male). Sure, the SL lenses are large. So are many Sony FF lenses... it's the physics of the sensor size combined with AF/AE capability. The Fuji dual magnification optical finder is definitely interesting. But it adds complexity and Fuji also doesn't have to incorporate a real mechanical rangefinder system. As Gary stated, and as I've practiced, when shooting wider than 28 with the OVF, I guesstimate framing. As it is, M OVF frame lines are only approximations and not exact. Shooting the M requires acknowledging the compromise of losing framing precision and perhaps also focus (though it can be precise with practice), necessitating more reliance on intuitive spontaneity.

I'm a pretty big camera gear-head, but a while ago I accepted that to happily shoot Leica, I have to stop thinking about spec sheet stats relative to what else is out there at considerably lower price points.



Jan 11, 2017 at 10:43 PM
Planetwide
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Leica 'M10"


Zhanming, you are expressing the same doubts that I did in the beginning... I went to Leica because I was burned out from lugging a fast Canon system all over the world. I was tired of constant upgrades, weight (1Ds3's) and lens churn with each new sensor.

I first went into a Leica store in Paris, and the kind Gentleman loaned me a 35mm Summilux, and a M9 for the afternoon. I left my Canon kit with him and went shooting. It was refreshing, light, fun, and a return to the kind of shooting that I love to do. I came back, and the sales man had printed out all of the Canadian Leica dealers - no hard sell. When I processed the images, I realized just how special Leica lenses are, and I ordered a M9 and a few lenses.

Today, my SL is the same size as my M240 was with the GPS grip and EVF. The SL is slightly lighter than that combo, and the EVF is superb. The M10 maybe a very nice second cam, and if it has the same sensor, the images will be relatively the same. The SL with a fast M lens is a relatively small affair, much smaller than the equivalent Sony for example. The 50lux is a quarter of the size of the Sony Zeiss 50mm F1.4. You can fit a M camera, a WATE, 28mm Summicron, 50 lux, and a 90 Elmarit in a very small bag.

As Ron says, the Leica lenses are what its really all about.

When I bought my first M9, I was never really sure that anything was in focus, but somehow, the images were sharp right where they were supposed to be. I learned to trust the RF, and LV when wider than 21mm. Today, using the SL with M lenses is fast, easy, and nothing like an adapted Sony experience. The SL and M lenses were designed to work together.

Image quality, is so much more than megapixels or even DXO reports. The single biggest factor for me is the joy I get from shooting with this system, the image quality is simply superb, and I am never "fighting the cam". It just works well and gets out of the way. This allows me to concentrate only on the photography, and to get the shot that I want.

Can this be done with other systems, sure. Are they the same experience as a Leica - no. It really comes down to a bit of faith, this system has been in use for a long time, and there is a good reason for that. You need to have some faith, bite the bullet and buy one. It will be frustrating and rewarding all at once, but trust me, it will be worth it in the end.

Andrew



Jan 12, 2017 at 12:42 PM
ZhanMing12
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Leica 'M10"


Andrew Gough wrote:
Zhanming, you are expressing the same doubts that I did in the beginning... I went to Leica because I was burned out from lugging a fast Canon system all over the world. I was tired of constant upgrades, weight (1Ds3's) and lens churn with each new sensor.

I first went into a Leica store in Paris, and the kind Gentleman loaned me a 35mm Summilux, and a M9 for the afternoon. I left my Canon kit with him and went shooting. It was refreshing, light, fun, and a return to the kind of shooting that I love to do.
...Show more

The Canon part is the same for me - that's the reason I starting using the NEX5 instead of a 5d classic. And I have a fairly nice setup of Leica glass - the 50mm APO Cron, the Noctilux ASPH and the 21mm/35mm Lux ASPH. I starting using M lenses on the NEX5, and now shoots the A7rII.

I agree that the SL was designed with M lenses in mind. But unless I'm shooting the Noctilux, the SL feels too big for the lens. It's nearly as heavy as the 7rII with the APO Cron attached. My ideal vision of a mirrorless Leica is a Q with the lens replaced with a M mount. The SL is probably the polar opposite of that.

All said and told, I'd probably stick with the 7rII even if the SL were $3,000. That's because while I agree that Sony has been piling on features excessively, a good amount of them are actually quite useful. Sony's DRO massively improves the quality of JPEGs while making sure that RAWs have highlight information. IBIS is probably something that you'll never see on a Leica, but being able to shoot at 1/8s or 1/4 in a pinch is great.

What I want is simply for Leica to at least put the latest imaging pipeline (e.g. great sensor, spot-on white balance, on-sensor metering with EFC) into its $7,000 bodies, and preferably also add some genuinely useful features (better peaking, unlimited self timer, electronic shutter, adjustable highlight warning). Those who want simplicity can turn all of it off. But Leica seems to content to design their cameras for a very narrow spectrum of shooting conditions. You can certainly use an M for portraiture or landscapes, but it's a subpar experience at best.

I shoot my 50mm APO Cron with AF (Techart) and face detection where the camera prioritizes a registered face It works surprisingly well. Is it too much to ask for a 40MP digital M with live view overlay in the rangefinder?



Jan 12, 2017 at 01:14 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Leica 'M10"


ZhanMing12 wrote:
You can certainly use an M for portraiture or landscapes, but it's a subpar experience at best.


Really?


Is it too much to ask for a 40MP digital M with live view overlay in the rangefinder?


Yes. At least for an M mount body....



Jan 12, 2017 at 01:33 PM
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