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Archive 2016 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

Alpha_Geist
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

GAS has got ahold of me again after finally getting back to photography after a hiatus, as new working hours and two little ones can hamper when and how to shoot.

Anyways, I've owned the 90mm cron pre-asph a few years ago and really gelled with the focal length. Regretfully, I sold it as a means to buy my first digital Leica rangefinder. So here I am now, looking to fill that 90mm void in my kit.

I've been looking into the older and discontinued 90mm elmarit (with pullout hood) as many people praised that mandler gem of a lens. However, there has been a "new" kid on the block for a few years now, the 90mm summarit 2.4/2.5. As I mainly shoot with a monochrom 246 (sold the mp240 for the mono and couldn't be happier!!!), and do a mixture of candid portraits and environmental photography, what would be your recommendation as for which lens to persue? As much as I loved the cron pre-asph, I want to try something different. So, I'm not looking into buying the cron pre-asph again. Any thoughts, insight, comparisons, recommendations and general photo education is most welcome!

Dec 07, 2016 at 01:11 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

If you go the Summarit direction, the f/2.5 version is optically identical (IIRC) to the current one and considerably less expensive on the secondhand market.

I had it for about 4-5 years and really not much to complain about it. Some may not like the separate hood, but I don't like most built-in slide-out hoods, so this didn't bother me. Only complaint would be the focus throw is quite fast, whereas it seems the Summicron designs, being greater in circumference, have somewhat longer throws for more precise focus adjustment, particularly at longer distances. Not sure how the Elmarit compares as I have no experience with one since my return to Leica (I had the 'thin' Elmarit briefly ~20 years ago...)

The Summarit is optically very good. Slight CA, but probably less a problem with the Monochrom. I'd guess it will be slightly more modern in rendering than the Elmarit. Not sure the extra ~1/3 stop amounts to much.

I moved to a 90AA and the differences in final image quality weren't that considerable. Given how little I use 90mm, I probably would have been just as well served by the Summarit, but you know, curiosity about the AA had to be satisfied. I've since gone the other extreme to the 90 Macro Elmar for portability... though have kept the 90AA for now. In hindsight the Summarit was a good 'compromise lens' for its size, speed, weight and image quality.

Dec 07, 2016 at 01:26 PM

AbramG
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

Funny I should encounter this thread. I was just thinking about these very same lenses! I'm using the v1 Monochrom myself and typically 50mm is about as long as I need but I too had the 90mm Summicron Pre-Asph and really liked it. I loved the focal length but I found myself struggling to get accurate focus with it and I'd personally be fine with a slightly slower 90mm (not to mention more compact).

In the past I also had the Konica 90mm Hexanon-M and I really enjoyed that. Wonderful rendering, super compact, easy to focus, all the perks. I sold it because I wanted a Summicron, but that was probably the wrong move. I've noticed the Hexanon going up in price recently so I think people are catching on to it.

I'm really curious to hear what you decide as I'm going to be deciding between these two in the future myself. I don't need a 90mm right now but I probably will again in the future.

Dec 07, 2016 at 08:55 PM

Alpha_Geist
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

rscheffler wrote:
If you go the Summarit direction, the f/2.5 version is optically identical (IIRC) to the current one and considerably less expensive on the secondhand market.

I had it for about 4-5 years and really not much to complain about it. Some may not like the separate hood, but I don't like most built-in slide-out hoods, so this didn't bother me. Only complaint would be the focus throw is quite fast, whereas it seems the Summicron designs, being greater in circumference, have somewhat longer throws for more precise focus adjustment, particularly at longer distances. Not sure how the Elmarit compares as I...Show more →

Thank you much for your input Ron! A few questions regarding the Summarit 2.5 since you've owned and used the lens. Was it challenging to nail focus because of the short focus throw or did the smaller aperture 2.5/2.8 make up for any bit of potential off focus? I know the 90mm frame lines are smaller than the 50 or 75 frame lines, so I'm just curious about focusing. I've never used the 90 pre-asph on a rangefinder before as I only had and adapted to the XT-1 and the a7. I'd imagine the feel of the build quality may seem inferior to the summicron (pre-asph and apo), but how did the Summarit feel in your hands? Especially, the rubber focusing ring...did the rubber ribbed focusing ring feel like it would slip, since I'd imagine the rubber isn't mechanically fastened to the metallic focusing housing? I do appreciate the smaller size/stature of the Summarit compared to the longer (heavier) Elmarit.

I'm attracted to the Elmarit because of it's sharp contrasty rendering and pop, which is different than the pre-asph. I haven't seen much on the 90 summarit lenses as most sites wax on about the other wonderful summarits (35/50/75). Even YouTube is lacking with information on this lens.

I'm hoping that since the Summarit is a newer lens, that it should behave like the Elmarit (sharp, contrasty, pop, near zero field curvature, etc.), but with a smaller and lighter footprint while saving a few pennies.

Do you have any experience with the "fat" Tele-Elmarit lens? I see those going for pretty cheap on FleaBay, but I'm assuming they have a much more classical rendering compared to the Elmarit and Summarit lenses.

Edited on Dec 07, 2016 at 10:59 PM · View previous versions

Dec 07, 2016 at 10:54 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

Alpha_Geist wrote:
GAS has got ahold of me again after finally getting back to photography after a hiatus, as new working hours and two little ones can hamper when and how to shoot.

Dec 07, 2016 at 10:57 PM

Alpha_Geist
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

AbramG wrote:
Funny I should encounter this thread. I was just thinking about these very same lenses! I'm using the v1 Monochrom myself and typically 50mm is about as long as I need but I too had the 90mm Summicron Pre-Asph and really liked it. I loved the focal length but I found myself struggling to get accurate focus with it and I'd personally be fine with a slightly slower 90mm (not to mention more compact).

In the past I also had the Konica 90mm Hexanon-M and I really enjoyed that. Wonderful rendering, super compact, easy to focus, all the perks. I...Show more →

Hi Abram! I think I'm leaning more towards the Summarit now since they are newer, still being manufactured, cost less and more (?) modern. I' e read that obtaining a nicely calibrated Elmarit is a bit hit or miss. I don't know how true it is, but that isn't very inspiring.

Right now, my kit consists of a 28/35/50/75. Any wider or longer FL than a 90, then I'd look at lenses for my Fuji. Just this last 90 FL to complete my set and I should *cough* be golden, Haha!

Dec 07, 2016 at 11:06 PM

Alpha_Geist
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

Fred Miranda wrote:
The Summarit f/2.5 is excellent for portraits, close and mid distances. Very sharp wide-open. However, it's not great at infinity distances.
If you care about infinity distances, the 90 AA will be vastly superior.

That's very good to know Fred. Thank you for that helpful bit of information! I don't recall shooting at infinity with the 90 pre-asph when I owned it. Same goes for my 75 cron. The infinity (and hyperfocal) is mainly used on my 28, 35 & 50 focal lengths. Hmmm....I'm definitely leaning towards the Summarit now.

Dec 07, 2016 at 11:11 PM

AbramG
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

Alpha_Geist wrote:
Hi Abram! I think I'm leaning more towards the Summarit now since they are newer, still being manufactured, cost less and more (?) modern. I' e read that obtaining a nicely calibrated Elmarit is a bit hit or miss. I don't know how true it is, but that isn't very inspiring.

Right now, my kit consists of a 28/35/50/75. Any wider or longer FL than a 90, then I'd look at lenses for my Fuji. Just this last 90 FL to complete my set and I should *cough* be golden, Haha!

You'll never be done

I'm using 28/35/50/50 (yes two 50s) on my Monochrom, MP and M-A; presently I don't have any other setups (in regular service, I have other film cameras) and the Mono is my only digital unless you count the Ricoh GR.

90mm is interesting to focus on a rangefinder. Personally I feel the M2 has the best framelines for a 90 and the M3 has the best viewfinder for it. I did find it challenging but not impossible. I only struggled a bit with the Summicron up close because the depth of field is SO shallow by that point.

Also, someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I swear I read that the 90mm summarit shares its optical formula with the Summicron pre-Asph, it just has a tamer aperture. The summarit line tends to look a "little" more classical than their purely modern counterparts. I'll see if I can find the thread I read mentioning that bit of info.

Dec 08, 2016 at 09:02 AM

rico
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

Alpha_Geist wrote:
Do you have any experience with the "fat" Tele-Elmarit lens? I see those going for pretty cheap on FleaBay, but I'm assuming they have a much more classical rendering compared to the Elmarit and Summarit lenses.

TE 90s will be lower contrast, in part because they're single coated. I prefer such lenses for Leica shooting, but period Elmars are even smaller and cheaper. If you want modern, the Elmar 90 macro is available, but the price is also modern.

Dec 09, 2016 at 01:48 AM

adamdewilde
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

For black and white it's a toss up between the 90 Summarit and the tele-Elmarit. They both have pros and cons, and both have a completely different look. If you were talking about color I'd tell you to try and find a good (no haze etc) tele-Elmarit as I prefer it's color and size. And don't mind the crazy flare.

Personally I find the 75 to be the most interesting of the Summarits for rendering/color. I'm not a fan of the 35 which most people rave about. And I don't really like the other lenses. BUT there isn't anything really wrong with the 90. It's good for it's size, and if you take colour out of the equation then I don't mind it one bit.

Dec 09, 2016 at 03:01 AM

Alpha_Geist
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

Well, I ended getting the 90mm summarit and a used M262...which I wasn't planning on. I'm actually on my way downtown with the summarit and monochrom to give the lens a workout. I'm interested to see the color rendering of the summarit when the M262 arrives, but for now, monochrom it is.

Thank you everyone for your help!

Dec 09, 2016 at 05:21 PM

teiki arii
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

The summarit 90/2.5 (/2.4) is an excellent lens optically and fits with the Leica-M philosophy: small and smart. It's not Walter Mandler's, rendering is more "modern" but it's a perfect lens. You cannot be disappointed with it...

Just try it at different distances to check if you like focusing with it..

Dec 10, 2016 at 03:17 AM

rscheffler
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

rscheffler wrote:
If you go the Summarit direction, the f/2.5 version is optically identical (IIRC) to the current one and considerably less expensive on the secondhand market.

I had it for about 4-5 years and really not much to complain about it. Some may not like the separate hood, but I don't like most built-in slide-out hoods, so this didn't bother me. Only complaint would be the focus throw is quite fast, whereas it seems the Summicron designs, being greater in circumference, have somewhat longer throws for more precise focus adjustment, particularly at longer distances. Not sure how the Elmarit compares as I...Show more →
Alpha_Geist wrote:
Thank you much for your input Ron! A few questions regarding the Summarit 2.5 since you've owned and used the lens. Was it challenging to nail focus because of the short focus throw or did the smaller aperture 2.5/2.8 make up for any bit of potential off focus? I know the 90mm frame lines are smaller than the 50 or 75 frame lines, so I'm just curious about focusing. I've never used the 90 pre-asph on a rangefinder before as I only had and adapted to the XT-1 and the a7. I'd imagine the feel of the build quality may...Show more →

Sorry, I missed this. But I see you got the Summarit already.

Yes, focus can be tricky, but practice helps. Honestly, I used the lens a lot at or near to infinity and stopped down a bit for urban and natural landscapes. I didn't use it much for people photos or detail shots, preferring 50mm for such applications.

I was never bothered by the build quality, which IMO is very similar to expensive Leica glass. Nor did the rubber focusing ring detract from the experience, for me. IMO, it's a nitpick detail that some like to complain about for some reason. In fact, I've had more reliability/build problems with Crons and Luxes than the Summarit, which was solid for the duration of my ownership.

As touched on briefly in the Leica images thread, watch your shutter speeds at 90mm. I've never had great luck with anything under 1/250. Sure, it's doable, but it requires greater care and multiple images.

Touching on what Adam mentioned, I briefly shot with the 75 Summarit and it is slightly better - sharper, contrast, less CA. But if you need/want 90, the Summarit is a good lens.

Dec 10, 2016 at 03:42 AM

Fred Miranda
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

Alpha_Geist wrote:
That's very good to know Fred. Thank you for that helpful bit of information! I don't recall shooting at infinity with the 90 pre-asph when I owned it. Same goes for my 75 cron. The infinity (and hyperfocal) is mainly used on my 28, 35 & 50 focal lengths. Hmmm....I'm definitely leaning towards the Summarit now.

Here is a sample showing the Leica 90/2.5 Summarit wide-open at close distance. It's very sharp with very nice rendering and colors. (perhaps too sharp in this case.

)
Bokeh is rounded and free of onion rings (Lack of aspherical elements)

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1445543/30#13711509

Dec 12, 2016 at 10:13 AM

Planetwide
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

Just to be a contrarian, the elmarit is a wonderful lens. I suggest looking for a new one, if you can, they still pop up on eBay once in a while. You'll pay more, but it will be a long term keeper lens. It has the Mandler look...

These are from the last version E46

https://photos.smugmug.com/Australia/The-Great-Ocean-Road/i-zb5WVTF/1/X3/PLW103744-X3.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Australia/The-Great-Ocean-Road/i-qsHhjCh/1/X3/PLW103749-X3.jpg

Dec 15, 2016 at 07:01 AM

arduluth
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

Every once in a while, I consider switching from the Contax G 90mm f/2.8 to the thin Tele-Elmarit 90mm to get a better focusing experience, but it never looks that impressive, especially for landscapes. Seems like there aren't a lot of folks using that lens. Shame, it's probably the most affordable Leica lens, and is tiny and light.

I'd love to see more comparisons between the different 90mm f/2.5-2.8 lenses from Leica, especially comparisons between the thin TE, fat, TE, and modern TEM.

Dec 15, 2016 at 12:25 PM

AbramG
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

I wound up finding a 6bit 90mm elmarit I couldn't say no to so I'm going to give that a shot.

We'll see if I wind up needing a magnifier.

Dec 18, 2016 at 02:17 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

I didn't find the magnifier to really help that much. It was a hassle to put on and keep handy. I also change lenses frequently, so it was a real PITA for me. IMO, more critical is to have the correct eyepiece diopter if you need it for your eyesight. That and a properly calibrated camera and lens, of course. With 90, if possible, I'll try to focus bracket. If it's critical I'll use the EVF on the M240.

Dec 18, 2016 at 03:31 PM

DavidBM
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

Fred Miranda wrote:
The Summarit f/2.5 is excellent for portraits, close and mid distances. Very sharp wide-open. However, it's not great at infinity distances.
If you care about infinity distances, the 90 AA will be vastly superior.

Fred do you have a sense of whether it's optical correction or focus issues that are the problem with the summarit at infinity? I ask because it's got a rep for being hard to focus at infinity because of short throw. I don't know this lens, but another lens with a rep for being hard to focus at infinity because of short throw, and for being less good at infinity, is the 4/180 APO Lanthar. I used to find this rep justified, but since getting TAP I've found that it's every bit as good at infinity as close, IF there is tons of light and you focus wide open using centre point. Which means that likely I was never quite nailing focus at infinity (and the hard stop is a bit after infinity, but just backing off a bit is unpredictably OOF).

EDIT: I see from you earlier post that it's astigmatism and FC that hamper the summarit at infinity; not an issue wit focus then!

Dec 18, 2016 at 03:45 PM

AbramG
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Leica 90mm Elmarit 2.8 or Summarit 2.4 on M246?

rscheffler wrote:
I didn't find the magnifier to really help that much. It was a hassle to put on and keep handy. I also change lenses frequently, so it was a real PITA for me. IMO, more critical is to have the correct eyepiece diopter if you need it for your eyesight. That and a properly calibrated camera and lens, of course. With 90, if possible, I'll try to focus bracket. If it's critical I'll use the EVF on the M240.

Ah good to know, thanks!

I don't wear glasses and I also try not to change lenses TOO often (that's why I have multiple bodies

) But I also don't have any EVF cameras as my only digital is the original Monochrom presently. My intent is mostly to use it for landscapes but also tight compositions when I can't get close enough with one of my 50s.

Dec 18, 2016 at 04:39 PM

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