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Archive 2016 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?

  
 
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


Here is my take on the issue mentioned above. I virtually never see it. You do need to apply different sharpening (and other) settings to Fujifilm files — those that work on your Canon or Nikon camera won't be idea.

That said, in some rare situations, if you look at some specific kinds of subjects at 100% magnification, especially with less than ideal sharpening, you can find a certain effect when the subject is very finely detailed low contrast foliage at just the right (wrong?) size. You'd likely never notice it in a print.

Dan



Oct 19, 2016 at 02:10 PM
rsk7
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


For those of you who haven't seen the worms here is a maxed out case where I pushed the detail and amount sliders in LR almost to max.

Ignore the "painterly" as this was a long exposure of branches blowing in the wind so that was an effect I was trying for.







Oct 19, 2016 at 04:03 PM
rbf_
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?



Here are links to some recent and useful tests and comparisons of the most recent sensor in the X-Pro2 with other cameras as well as a discussion on some counterintuitive PP techniques for X-Trans files. It also discusses the current state of X-Trans support with raw converters.

PART 1 – MOIRÉ AND DETAILS
http://www.aevansphoto.com/x-trans_sucks_part_1/

PART 2 – DETAILS SMEARING, NOISE AND LIGHTROOM
http://www.aevansphoto.com/fujis-x-trans-sensor-sucks-part-2/

PART 3 – LIGHTROOM VS THE WORLD
http://www.aevansphoto.com/fujis-x-trans-sensor-sucks-part-3/






Oct 19, 2016 at 05:44 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


rsk7 wrote:
For those of you who haven't seen the worms here is a maxed out case where I pushed the detail and amount sliders in LR almost to max.

Ignore the "painterly" as this was a long exposure of branches blowing in the wind so that was an effect I was trying for.


That is never going to happen with normal post processing.



Oct 19, 2016 at 06:04 PM
charles.K
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


With different camera systems you do have to find the work flow that works. I had the Leica M9 and for 12 months I was using C1 Pro until Adobe caught up. With Leica Monochrome, great camera, but you did need to be very careful in the sharpening of RAW files in Lr/PS otherwise you would have unusual artifacts which I have many examples. I sent a number of RAW files back to Leica for reviewing.

Even with the A7rII you can have different forms of artifacts.

As mentioned before I find the RAW files from the XT2 behave differently from the XPro 2, which I was not expecting. I also had heard this from some people who were testing the XT2 just prior to its release.

For 98% of my work, Lr CC/PS latest versions are great with no issues. It is different workflow as the RAW files have different characteristics. C1 Pro 9.3 latest version is excellent, but it only supports uncompressed files for now. So is Raw Therapee, which is an amazing program. Sometimes I use C1 Pro 9.3 for the different look and rendering.

I also have Photo Ninja and Silky Pix Pro, but I do not use these as there is no need.



Oct 19, 2016 at 06:10 PM
cputeq
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


svenjosh wrote:
I do hope someone posts something to show this problem. I see this problem mentioned but never get to see it. Just curious.



It happens under certain circumstances:

1) High frequency detail
2) In-focus detail
3) Very small (counted in pixels) elements (leaves, twigs, etc)
4) Typically worse if the detail curves or is diagonal (like leaves starting horizontal and curving downward).

and is exacerbated by

4) Improper sharpening technique.


This is why the watercolor effect is most often associated with foliage, etc., because those conditions above (lots of things in focus, fine-detail, small elements, and curves) represent many landscape shots.

Below is a 100% crop of an example, and it's not really that bad. The worst sample I ever had I think I deleted ( a distant shot of bare tree limbs and twigs after autumn -- it was pretty bad but that situation is rare).

Do note, Lightroom has gotten better at translating X-Trans files, and the 24MP sensor makes it even better yet (more resolving power = less worms).

Overall -- it doesn't really matter to me at least. This issue turned me away from Fuji once, but after printing, I realized it's no big deal, especially when I modified my sharpening (do NOT oversharpen X-Trans files....just a little) and upgraded to the XT2.








XT1 sample, 100% crop

  X-T1    XF55-200mmF3.5-4.8 R LM OIS lens    55mm    f/7.1    1/160s    200 ISO    0.0 EV  







X-T2 100% crop

  X-T2    XF16mmF1.4 R WR lens    16mm    f/8.0    1/100s    200 ISO    +0.3 EV  




Oct 19, 2016 at 06:55 PM
svenjosh
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


Thanks for posting the samples tbh I own/used to own Nikon, Leica, Sony and every one of them showed different kinds of artifacts if detail slider is over used (over processed in any manner) in Lightroom. I do not take a lot of pictures of forests (people/photojournalism is something that inspires me) so I never noticed any problems with Fuji XT2. I understand it may be something that nature/landscape photographers will notice


Oct 19, 2016 at 07:02 PM
Tim Ashton
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


Using the 16mp XE2s and since I have been using photoninja have seen no evidence of watercolour.

Tim



Oct 19, 2016 at 07:27 PM
rbf_
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


Tim Ashton wrote:
Using the 16mp XE2s and since I have been using photoninja have seen no evidence of watercolour.

Tim


I've never seen it with Capture One 7/8.x on my XE1 either. This was basically the main reason I was not using Adobe Lightroom at all.



Oct 19, 2016 at 08:06 PM
rbf_
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


cputeq wrote:
It happens under certain circumstances:

1) High frequency detail
2) In-focus detail
3) Very small (counted in pixels) elements (leaves, twigs, etc)
4) Typically worse if the detail curves or is diagonal (like leaves starting horizontal and curving downward).

and is exacerbated by

4) Improper sharpening technique.

This is why the watercolor effect is most often associated with foliage, etc., because those conditions above (lots of things in focus, fine-detail, small elements, and curves) represent many landscape shots.

Below is a 100% crop of an example, and it's not really that bad. The worst sample I ever had I think I deleted ( a distant shot of bare
...Show more

Is that the current version of Lightroom? Did you push the sharpening 'amount' at all?




Oct 19, 2016 at 08:23 PM
cputeq
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


rbf_ wrote:
Is that the current version of Lightroom? Did you push the sharpening 'amount' at all?



Yep, LR CC and sharpening was around 18-30 amount, 0.5--0.7 radius, 10-20 detail (variable depending on picture and I can't remember where they are in my catalog).


The "Detail" slider seems to be the real culprit. Take a foliage image and blast the amount and keep radius 1.0, but keep detail at 0, and you can actually almost max out sharpening without getting 'worms'.

Slide the Detail up just a fraction (with high sharpening) and you get crazy artifacts and more worms.

This sample is Sharpening 64, radius 1.0, but detail 0.

Lowering radius to 0.5, but raising detail to 5, looks worse to me than keeping detail 0, radius 1.0!

This is extreme pixel peeping of course.

But, from what I've seen, use "Detail" with caution in LR.








100% X-T2 crop, Sharpening 64, radius 1.0, detail 0

  X-T2    XF55-200mmF3.5-4.8 R LM OIS lens    86mm    f/5.0    1/50s    800 ISO    0.0 EV  




Oct 19, 2016 at 09:24 PM
traveler
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


For critical demosaicing and such I start with PhotoNinja. I've had NO artifacts result from using that to get things started. From there I'll bring it into LR for any final adjustments which can only be achieved by their tools. Then sharpening done only in the Google NIK package.


Oct 19, 2016 at 09:42 PM
cvrle59
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


Thanks "cputeq" for the photos, evidence and explanations, that's exactly what I meant.
Obviously, there's a way how to get around it, but I wasn't patient enough to try different things, I just gave it up.
I may give another chance to X-T2, as I love everything else on it, but I will wait for windows version of Iridient developer, most likely.
My bad was, that I sold X-T1 before our trip throughout Western Canada in August, then I used D800, on that trip, X-T2 was coming in September, as we know. I had a chance to compare images I made with D800 against some from X-T1, and finally X-T2. The difference in those details was clear to me, that made me very upset, and I pulled the trigger after only 2 days.



Oct 19, 2016 at 09:58 PM
charles.K
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


Here is a shot at 100% in soft lighting.

For all fine detail, I start with radius 0.5 in Lr CC, and then increase the amount to suit, in this case 55, detail 40 and masking 15. Sometimes I use the detail slider and increase it first to a high value.

The other issue and I have seen this often, is downsizing for web or screen presentation there can be issues with Lr CC. The shot will look great before the downsize with no issues, only to show up differently on the screen. I have seen this with the A7rII/A7r/A7s and M240. This had been a recorded issue, and I am still seeing it occasionally.




  X-Pro2    XF50-140mmF2.8 R LM OIS WR lens    140mm    f/2.8    1/110s    200 ISO    0.0 EV  




Oct 19, 2016 at 10:22 PM
rbf_
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


Here are a few 600x400 pixel crops from my XP2 + 50-140 processed with Capture One Pro 9.3 and the whole downsized image (1500x1200 pixels) at the end.





  X-Pro2    XF50-140mmF2.8 R LM OIS WR lens    124mm    f/11.0    1/240s    200 ISO    0.0 EV  






  X-Pro2    XF50-140mmF2.8 R LM OIS WR lens    124mm    f/11.0    1/240s    200 ISO    0.0 EV  






  X-Pro2    XF50-140mmF2.8 R LM OIS WR lens    124mm    f/11.0    1/240s    200 ISO    0.0 EV  






  X-Pro2    XF50-140mmF2.8 R LM OIS WR lens    124mm    f/11.0    1/240s    200 ISO    0.0 EV  






  X-Pro2    XF50-140mmF2.8 R LM OIS WR lens    124mm    f/11.0    1/240s    200 ISO    0.0 EV  



Edited on Oct 20, 2016 at 08:53 AM · View previous versions



Oct 19, 2016 at 11:14 PM
rsk7
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


The worms are a product of incorrect sharpening. I can get artifacts with with 5D3 if I abuse a raw file in a similar way in LR (using the latest and greatest version of CC).

The problem is with first actually seeing and recognizing that artifacts have been created in your image. Once you recognize it then you can deal with it but you have to be able to see it first so you can fix it.





5D3









Oct 19, 2016 at 11:17 PM
charles.K
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


rsk7 wrote:
The worms are a product of incorrect sharpening. I can get artifacts with with 5D3 if I abuse a raw file in a similar way in LR (using the latest and greatest version of CC).

The problem is with first actually seeing and recognizing that artifacts have been created in your image. Once you recognize it then you can deal with it but you have to be able to see it first so you can fix it.


Rick, excellent example. I have seen this many times with the A7rII/A7s too. I think where the difference with the XT2/XPro2 is that the cusp is a lot narrower for all the sharpening settings and it is so easy to over sharpen.

Same 100% RAW file as above just post processed in Raw Therapee and also downsized with RT using their algorithm. RT can pick up detail that Lr CC does not see. In this case it was raining and RT could see the rain captured on the leaves of the gum tree.


The two shots below are the full size image. First in Lr CC and 2nd with RT.






  X-Pro2    XF50-140mmF2.8 R LM OIS WR lens    140mm    f/2.8    1/110s    200 ISO    0.0 EV  






  X-Pro2    XF50-140mmF2.8 R LM OIS WR lens    140mm    f/2.8    1/110s    200 ISO    0.0 EV  






  X-Pro2    XF50-140mmF2.8 R LM OIS WR lens    140mm    f/2.8    1/110s    200 ISO    0.0 EV  




Oct 19, 2016 at 11:29 PM
biffstephens
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


I still have my 5D3, big glass is just not an option for the FUJI but the smaller glass is awesome. I love the size! It is a great 2nd body but doesn't really replace the canon. Nor should it, the Canon is in a different tax bracket. I like having both....travel with the XT-2....I have one more lens to buy and I think I might be done for a while. 10-24!


Oct 20, 2016 at 06:51 PM
charles.K
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


Back on topic regarding the OP's question, with weddings I would keep the 5D3 system for now, and rent the XT2 with couple lenses and see how it performs during the pressure of a wedding. There will be a steep learning curve in changing camera systems, even with your normal post processing workflow as the RAW files will behave differently. Having a FF is always handy even if you just keep one of your 5D3 and select lenses as a backup.

Myself I moved away from Sony with the A7rII, still have the A7s/FE 55/FE 35/2.8, to a Nikon D750 when I need a FF camera. The D750 second hand can purchased for 1/4 of the price compared to a A7rII so it is excellent value at least in Australia.

No doubt professionally cost of equipment is important and having the XT2 even as a backup is very cost effective system.



Oct 21, 2016 at 03:20 AM
alskouba
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Switch 5D3 to XT2?


I am going threw the same reflection.
That little XT-2 Is tempting. IQ seems to be there and the size is perfect for my needs.
I shoot mainly with L primes. 24-35-50. My visual signature includes most of the time is wide angle and a shallow depth of field (F2.0-F4.0). My main concern is about depth of field.
These are typical exemple of my photography.I wonder if some XT-2 shooter can confirm if I can get similar depth of field and dynamic range as I have in these photos?






















Oct 21, 2016 at 01:57 PM
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