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Archive 2016 · 6D II Speculation

Shield
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · 6D II Speculation

If Canon releases a FF with a flippy screen and DPAF, I will return my 5dIV. I don't see this happening.

Sep 30, 2016 at 06:08 AM

RustyBug
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · 6D II Speculation

Dual Cards
Articulating Display
F8 AF

That would all be sweet to me @ 80D big brother, but then what would that do to the 5D4 market? I mean, what would then be left as the significant advantages of a 5D4? +FPS, build quality, +5 MP ...

I was surprised when they let F8 AF into the xx ranks @ 80D. Maybe they let F8 AF and dual cards (normally reserved for more "pro" models) in to the 6D, as those would both be pleasant surprises as well.

Articulating screen is definitely a plus for me, but I'm still not expecting it. Seems like that would require a chassis redesign. Which could mean a "thicker" body with the screen added. Or a slimmer internal body to accommodate the thickness of the display, to net the same external size. That "slimming" then encroaches internal real estate for adding dual cards, changing heat sink size etc. As such, the notion of dual cards AND articulating display AND a smaller / lighter size make for some challenges.

That's not to say it can't be done, but there is no such thing as a free lunch ... so it will be interesting to see how they might put it all together. Sounds good on paper though.

Sep 30, 2016 at 06:13 AM

johnctharp
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · 6D II Speculation

Shield wrote:
If Canon releases a FF with a flippy screen and DPAF, I will return my 5dIV. I don't see this happening.

They didn't put one on the 7D II, but they did on the 80D.

Putting one on the 6D II would make sense, in Canon-logic, where the flippy screen would a warranty/repair/reliability issue on a 'mostly-pro' body like the 5D IV.

Sep 30, 2016 at 06:40 AM

johnctharp
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · 6D II Speculation

RustyBug wrote:
I was surprised when they let F8 AF into the xx ranks @ 80D.

Well, they did, only they mostly didn't. It works only (officially) with very specific Canon lens and Canon teleconverter choices, unlike the systems in basically every other f/8 AF supporting body.

Which makes sense, in a way.

Sep 30, 2016 at 06:43 AM

CanadaMark
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · 6D II Speculation

johnctharp wrote:
They didn't put one on the 7D II, but they did on the 80D.

Putting one on the 6D II would make sense, in Canon-logic, where the flippy screen would a warranty/repair/reliability issue on a 'mostly-pro' body like the 5D IV.

I don't think they are as much of a liability as some think. The D500 has one, and Nikon reps would attach a 200-500/5.6 VR lens and swing the whole combo around, only holding on only by the LCD screen. I'm sure Canon could do it too if they wanted to. The D750 has one too and I've not heard of a single issue with the flippy screen.

Sep 30, 2016 at 10:38 AM

jorkata
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · 6D II Speculation

mogul wrote:
I am not going to pursue this but obviously it isn't proprietary and if Sony wanted to put it in their larger sensors for an improvement, they would.

Well, you are obviously incorrect.

Dual-pixel AF is a Canon invention:
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130701006627/en/Canon-Develops-Dual-Pixel-CMOS-AF-Technology

They've been presenting the technology to the scientific community as well:
http://www.imagesensors.org/Past%20Workshops/2015%20Workshop/2015%20Papers/2015%20IISW%20Program.htm

Both Sony and Samsung are using the tech in sensors for mobile phones - but that's likely a result of some licensing deal, the terms of which are not in the public domain.

Sep 30, 2016 at 10:51 AM

snapsy
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · 6D II Speculation

jorkata wrote:
Well, you are obviously incorrect.

Dual-pixel AF is a Canon invention:
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130701006627/en/Canon-Develops-Dual-Pixel-CMOS-AF-Technology

They've been presenting the technology to the scientific community as well:
http://www.imagesensors.org/Past%20Workshops/2015%20Workshop/2015%20Papers/2015%20IISW%20Program.htm

Both Sony and Samsung are using the tech in sensors for mobile phones - but that's likely a result of some licensing deal, the terms of which are not in the public domain.

An invention in terms of exclusivity / patentability involves a specific technique by which an idea is implemented. The general concept of using dual-pixels for AF is likely not exclusive, the same as how the general concept of using on-chip column-based ADCs is not exclusive.

Sep 30, 2016 at 11:07 AM

jorkata
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · 6D II Speculation

snapsy wrote:
The general concept of using dual-pixels for AF is likely not exclusive ...

Nope. As simple and obvious as it looks, Canon is actually the first one to come up with and use the concept of dual-pixel AF.

Like I said, they've been presenting this to the scientific community as their own technology.
If this wasn't the case, there would have been a huge outcry about plagiarism.

Also consider that dual-pixel AF is particularly advantageous for mirrorless cameras.
So, if the dual-pixel concept existed before, Sony and the others would have surely implemented it by now.

Sep 30, 2016 at 11:28 AM

snapsy
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · 6D II Speculation

jorkata wrote:
Nope. As simple and obvious as it looks, Canon is actually the first one to come up with and use the concept of dual-pixel AF.

Like I said, they've been presenting this to the scientific community as their own technology.
If this wasn't the case, there would have been a huge outcry about plagiarism.

Also consider that dual-pixel AF is particularly advantageous for mirrorless cameras.
So, if the dual-pixel concept existed before, Sony and the others would have surely implemented it by now.

It doesn't matter if you're first. What matters is if your particular implementation is proprietary enough to both be patentable and for that patent to be defensible under challenge. Ideas aren't patentable; only implementations are. This is why there are so many sensor manufacturers with column-based ADCs on CMOS sensors, even though none were the first to come up with the idea.

Sep 30, 2016 at 11:33 AM

jorkata
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · 6D II Speculation

johnctharp wrote:
Flippy screen, 25MP, dual slots, and DPAF with 4k, expected to be smaller/lighter, and in 1H'17.

If there will be one difference between the 5DIV and the 6DII, that would be the use of dual card slots only on the 5DIV vs a single slot on the 6DII.

I also think that the 6DII will either reuse the 5DIV sensor - or have a sensor with more MPs, not less.
We shall see, I guess.

Sep 30, 2016 at 11:37 AM

CanadaMark
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · 6D II Speculation

jorkata wrote:
If there will be one difference between the 5DIV and the 6DII, that would be the use of dual card slots only on the 5DIV vs a single slot on the 6DII.

AF spec and FPS will most likely be the key differences, along with lots of little things like the card slots you mention, buffer depth, viewfinder coverage, and quality of weather sealing.

Edited on Sep 30, 2016 at 11:43 AM · View previous versions

Sep 30, 2016 at 11:41 AM

jorkata
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · 6D II Speculation

snapsy wrote:
It doesn't matter if you're first. What matters is if your particular implementation is proprietary enough to both be patentable and for that patent to be defensible under challenge. Ideas aren't patentable; only implementations are. This is why there are so many sensor manufacturers with column-based ADCs on CMOS sensors, even though none were the first to come up with the idea.

I understand what you are saying.
Pixel masking for on-sensor phase-detection AF is what everybody has been using.
What you are saying fully applies to that.

But the (simple) concept of dual-pixel AF really didn't exist before.
And now that it's been patented by Canon, no one can use it without a license.

Sep 30, 2016 at 11:43 AM

snapsy
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · 6D II Speculation

jorkata wrote:
I understand what you are saying.
Pixel masking for on-sensor phase-detection AF is what everybody has been using.
What you are saying fully applies to that.

But the (simple) concept of dual-pixel AF really didn't exist before.
And now that it's been patented by Canon, no one can use it without a license.

They'll only have to license it from Canon if they cannot find an alternate technique to achieve the same functionality. I've always been surprised at how small the difference of technique uniquely identifies a method as novel in the eyes of patent law. I'm speaking from experience in working with patent attorneys over my 25 year engineering career.

Sep 30, 2016 at 11:48 AM

msalvetti
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · 6D II Speculation

With clean 5DIIIs going for $1500 now on B&S, the 6DII has to be better than that body, both AF, f/8, and image quality. The addition of a flippy screen doesn't do it.

Will be interesting to see where it ends up.

Mark

Sep 30, 2016 at 06:47 PM

johnctharp
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · 6D II Speculation

CanadaMark wrote:
I don't think they are as much of a liability as some think.

I don't either, but that's been Canon's line (spoken or inferred). I'd add the K1 as evidence against their logic as well.

I'm just using it as a argument for what Canon is likely to do

Sep 30, 2016 at 08:48 PM

EB-1
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · 6D II Speculation

jorkata wrote:
If there will be one difference between the 5DIV and the 6DII, that would be the use of dual card slots only on the 5DIV vs a single slot on the 6DII.

I also think that the 6DII will either reuse the 5DIV sensor - or have a sensor with more MPs, not less.
We shall see, I guess.

Why on Earth would the cheapo FF body have more MP than the 5D IV

EBH

Sep 30, 2016 at 08:53 PM

johnctharp
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · 6D II Speculation

jorkata wrote:
If there will be one difference between the 5DIV and the 6DII, that would be the use of dual card slots only on the 5DIV vs a single slot on the 6DII.

I'd make that argument myself, but at the same time, one can argue that the two cameras the 6D II will be compared to *both* have dual card slots (D610 and D750), which gives some credence to the CR rumor.

Sep 30, 2016 at 08:58 PM

RustyBug
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · 6D II Speculation

johnctharp wrote:
I don't either, but that's been Canon's line (spoken or inferred). I'd add the K1 as evidence against their logic as well.

I'm just using it as a argument for what Canon is likely to do

.

Canon logic @ less reliable for moving screen ... I think it'll depend on how much "pro vs. sumer" they try to market it. Dual slots, leans "pro", "flippy" screen leans (to date, anyway) "sumer". Where they land on this one =

Oct 01, 2016 at 11:07 AM

EB-1
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · 6D II Speculation

johnctharp wrote:
I'd make that argument myself, but at the same time, one can argue that the two cameras the 6D II will be compared to *both* have dual card slots (D610 and D750), which gives some credence to the CR rumor.

D7000 series has had two SD slots for years and have a relatively small form factor.

EBH

Oct 01, 2016 at 11:26 AM

PhilDrinkwater
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · 6D II Speculation

If it has decent AF, I might sell my 5d3 backup body and get one to go with my 5d4.. which is a camera I totally wish had a flippy screen..

It'll be amusing if it does indeed have dual card slots cos I took a beating for suggesting that in another thread 😂😂

Oct 02, 2016 at 07:26 AM

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