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Archive 2016 · 6D II Speculation

  
 
johnctharp
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 6D II Speculation


From CanonRumors:


Flippy screen, 25MP, dual slots, and DPAF with 4k, expected to be smaller/lighter, and in 1H'17.

Assuming that the AF is improved off-center (doesn't need much) and DPAF is similarly well implemented such that it will be useful for wide-aperture portraits, I think it'll do me for my limited shooting.

It really looks like Canon is aiming to meet Nikon at their half-pro D750 segment, though one has to wonder if Canon would bring out a replacement for the current 6D's segment to compete with the D610 (and possible successor). An 8D, maybe?



Sep 29, 2016 at 08:10 PM
DtEW
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 6D II Speculation


I still think the 6D segment is where Canon can experiment with a mirrorless offering in existing EF-mount. With this one move they can:

1) Address Nikon's competitive model(s) while at the same time leveraging a) cost savings of losing a pentaprism/mirror/AF-and-exposure-sensors/etc, b) weight savings, c) the competitive advantage of their proprietary technology (DPAF), and d) the trendiness of mirrorless.

2) Address Sony's MILC challenge without much risk (Canon's reputation isn't hinging on a 6D, while it might be on a 1D or 5D), while at the same time throwing them a subtle snub (downmarketing MILCs, at least for now).

3) Pose not only no threat of model cannibalism, but in fact might even spur existing Canon EF investors to add this very different model with very different strengths to their existing arsenal.

Edited on Sep 29, 2016 at 08:24 PM · View previous versions



Sep 29, 2016 at 08:22 PM
Max_Pain
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 6D II Speculation


Nice...if it pans out.


Sep 29, 2016 at 08:23 PM
mogul
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 6D II Speculation


DtEW wrote:
I still think the 6D segment is where Canon can experiment with a mirrorless offering in existing EF-mount. With this one move they can:

1) Address Nikon's competitive model(s) while at the same time leveraging a) cost savings of losing a pentaprism/mirror/AF-and-exposure-sensors/etc, b) weight savings, c) the competitive advantage of their proprietary technology (DPAF), and d) the trendiness of mirrorless.

2) Address Sony's MILC challenge without much risk (Canon's reputation isn't hinging on a 6D, while it might be on a 1D or 5D), while at the same time throwing them a subtle snub (downmarketing MILCs, at least for now).

3) Pose not
...Show more
Actually the DPAF is not proprietary. Sony uses it in some of their sensors..



Sep 29, 2016 at 08:30 PM
DtEW
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 6D II Speculation




mogul wrote:
Actually the DPAF is not proprietary. Sony uses it in some of their sensors..


Sony's OSPDAF works in a different way using different patents. Sony utilizes sub-pixel shading, and only a limited number of pixels are devoted to OSPDAF (OSPDAF points). In fact, the surrounding pixels have to be co-opted to extrapolate data for the compromised OSPDAF pixels.

This is why Sony will never have Canon's DPRAW functionality unless they restart with a different technology.

So, DPAF is indeed highly proprietary.



Sep 29, 2016 at 08:37 PM
mogul
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 6D II Speculation


You may want to look at this
https://www.dpreview.com/news/5477361444/galaxy-s7-teardown-reveals-sony-imx260-dual-pixel-sensor



Sep 29, 2016 at 08:42 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 6D II Speculation


mogul wrote:
You may want to look at this
https://www.dpreview.com/news/5477361444/galaxy-s7-teardown-reveals-sony-imx260-dual-pixel-sensor


Still no word on whether this is a markedly different approach to Canon's or a rip-off or a cross-license agreement. Canon's patent is very broad, but maybe the how it's implemented allows SOny to use it. However ultimately it's a dual pixel arrangement used for PD AF, so hard to see how that can be gotten around easily.



Sep 29, 2016 at 08:59 PM
DtEW
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 6D II Speculation



mogul wrote:
You may want to look at this
https://www.dpreview.com/news/5477361444/galaxy-s7-teardown-reveals-sony-imx260-dual-pixel-sensor


Until I see it in a sensor bigger than a grain of rice, it is irrelevant to full-frame sensors (i.e. limited licensing from Canon? Prohibitive production yields at camera-format sizes?)

It's not a dismissal, but there is a lot that needs to be sorted out. An implementation of a tech in cell phone format does not mean it can be easily done in a full-frame sensor further.

Edit: Pixel Perfect got it out before I did.



Sep 29, 2016 at 09:03 PM
mogul
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 6D II Speculation


I am not going to pursue this but obviously it isn't proprietary and if Sony wanted to put it in their larger sensors for an improvement, they would.


Sep 29, 2016 at 09:19 PM
DtEW
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 6D II Speculation



mogul wrote:
I am not going to pursue this but obviously it isn't proprietary and if Sony wanted to put it in their larger sensors for an improvement, they would.


Seriously not trying to draw this out, but what I left unsaid in my comment about scaling up is that a copy-cat tech designed to work around an IP might have some difficulties that aren't suffered by the original tech.

Everything being said here is speculation. The proof is in the pudding, which is if/when Sony can manifest this tech in camera-format sizes. So far they have not. This might be the case forever, or it might be the case in a year. We shall see.

Canon, meanwhile, has DPAF in camera-format sizes, and in all likelihood will have it in their 6D in a couple of months. whether it will be main AF tech or the supplemental one is the question I am asking... esp. against Nikon.

Edited on Sep 29, 2016 at 09:30 PM · View previous versions



Sep 29, 2016 at 09:25 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 6D II Speculation


I've used the Galaxy S7's camera and the AF is instantaneous. Certainly easier on a smaller sensor due to DOF range but still impressive vs other smartphone offerings. I don't see why Sony's technology wouldn't translate to larger sensors as well.


Sep 29, 2016 at 09:27 PM
mogul
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 6D II Speculation


DtEW wrote:
Seriously not trying to draw this out, but what I left unsaid in my comment about scaling up is that a copy-cat tech designed to work around an IP might have some difficulties that aren't suffered by the original tech.


Knowing Canon R&D and Sony's, do you really think this patent is Canon's...Sony is a whore and will sell to anybody (unless it is their top of line 42 mpix).



Sep 29, 2016 at 09:31 PM
anselwannab
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 6D II Speculation


DtEW wrote:
I still think the 6D segment is where Canon can experiment with a mirrorless offering in existing EF-mount. With this one move they can:

1) Address Nikon's competitive model(s) while at the same time leveraging a) cost savings of losing a pentaprism/mirror/AF-and-exposure-sensors/etc, b) weight savings, c) the competitive advantage of their proprietary technology (DPAF), and d) the trendiness of mirrorless.

2) Address Sony's MILC challenge without much risk (Canon's reputation isn't hinging on a 6D, while it might be on a 1D or 5D), while at the same time throwing them a subtle snub (downmarketing MILCs, at least for now).

3) Pose not
...Show more

That's some pretty interesting reasoning. Makes a better offset to the 5DIV. The only thing I wonder about is if teh Canon people worry that the 6DII would steal too many 5DIV users. But I think worrying about A7Rii stealing more 5DIV users is more relevant. Might be interesting for the super high model after the 5Ds to be mirrorless? Not really much of a loss there since the best use of a SLR, to me, is long primes for sports. Maybe even have the 5Ds, or the 6DII have the viewfinder set up like the new Fuji.



Sep 29, 2016 at 09:32 PM
mogul
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 6D II Speculation


snapsy wrote:
I've used the Galaxy S7's camera and the AF is instantaneous. Certainly easier on a smaller sensor due to DOF range but still impressive vs other smartphone offerings. I don't see why Sony's technology wouldn't translate to larger sensors as well.


The money in the camera business is in the phones and who can tap the next phone camera...as an aside, does Canon supply any cameras to phones?



Sep 29, 2016 at 09:39 PM
DtEW
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 6D II Speculation




mogul wrote:
Knowing Canon R&D and Sony's, do you really think this patent is Canon's...Sony is a whore and will sell to anybody (unless it is their top of line 42 mpix).


Actually, a couple of generations worth of Canon's Dual Pixel patents are searchable on the web. All I've (and presumably ChipWorks in that S7 teardown, hence their surprise) ever seen from Sony patent filings has been pixel-shading.



Sep 29, 2016 at 09:43 PM
johnctharp
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 6D II Speculation


I don't buy the MILC argument yet- it wouldn't be called a 6D II, at least.

Further, I doubt Canon is ready to roll an FF MILC with just their first-gen 'serious' APS-C MILC out the door. After some refinement, and time to build lenses around it? Sure. But not FY17 .




Sep 29, 2016 at 10:32 PM
johnctharp
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 6D II Speculation


Also, separately, when talking about the DPAF tech and possible sharing with Sony, note that Canon works closely with Sony on sensors from 1" on down.

The running postulation is that it's very likely that Canon traded their DPAF know-how and patents, or at least a promise not to sue for the same in Sony sensor read-out technology.

Remember that part of the problem is figuring out how to do something- and part of it is figuring out how to do it differently enough to not infringe on your competitors' patented technology.



Sep 29, 2016 at 10:35 PM
mogul
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 6D II Speculation


johnctharp wrote:
Also, separately, when talking about the DPAF tech and possible sharing with Sony, note that Canon works closely with Sony on sensors from 1" on down.

The running postulation is that it's very likely that Canon traded their DPAF know-how and patents, or at least a promise not to sue for the same in Sony sensor read-out technology.

Remember that part of the problem is figuring out how to do something- and part of it is figuring out how to do it differently enough to not infringe on your competitors' patented technology.


OK



Sep 29, 2016 at 11:09 PM
freetime101
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 6D II Speculation


johnctharp wrote:
Flippy screen, 25MP, dual slots, and DPAF with 4k, expected to be smaller/lighter, and in 1H'17.


Whoohoo, add in the 80D's AF system and I'm sold Oh, and my AF toggle button!

Not fussed on mirrorless, I'm neither for or against it so either way the rumoured 6DII is interesting.

Hopefully the 6DII mixes all the best bits (from a prosumer POV) of the 5DIII and 80D, ie:

Dual cards
Flippy screen
More AF points
100% viewfinder
AF toggle button!

It's already got crazy high ISO and megapixels, GPS and WiFi so I can't see it loosing those.



Sep 30, 2016 at 03:49 AM
Paul Mo
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 6D II Speculation


Be good to see them up the ruggedness just a tad - tweak the durability a little.


Sep 30, 2016 at 05:34 AM
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