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Archive 2016 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

Sr.Cordeiro
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

Kipon just announced a new Baveyes focal reducer for medium format lenses for Sony FE, Leica M and Leica SL with a 0.7x crop factor.

Not sure of what advantages this may bring compared to fast 35mm FF glass though.

http://www.kipon.com/en/articledetail.asp?id=97

Aug 04, 2016 at 04:37 AM

jcolwell
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

Sr.Cordeiro wrote:
...Not sure of what advantages this may bring compared to fast 35mm FF glass though.

Well, at f/8 and infinity focus, the Mamiya 645 C 55/2.8 C is sharper across the frame than the Leica Summicron-R 50/2 E55, Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 35-70/3.4, and Canon EF 24-70/2.8 L II, and virtually tied with the much more expensive Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 50/2 ZE.

Also at f/8 and infinity focus, the Mamiya 645 C 80/2.8 N is sharper across the frame than the Voigtlander 75/2.5 Color Heliar SL, Canon EF 70-200/2.8 L IS II, EF 24-70/2.8 L II, EF 70-200/4 L IS, and Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 35-70/3.4.

Also at f/8 and infinity focus, the Mamiya A 150/2.8 + 1.4x III is better than the Canon EF 70-200/2.8 L IS II (!), EF 70-200/4 L IS, and EF 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS II. At shorter range, the Mamiya A 200/2.8 APO is the best of the bunch, but not at infinity focus.

It would be interesting to compare these lenses on an E-mount camera with the focal length reducer, but it's not on my "to do" list.

Aug 04, 2016 at 06:58 AM

banpreso
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

mirrorless camera = really small
medeium format lens = huge

put the two together = hilarious

it would be amazing to try hasselblad 110mm f2 lens on full frame tho, i'm not really too excited about trying other hasselblad v lenses on Sony A7. Maybe Pentax 6x7 lenses... now that would be interesting too.

Aug 04, 2016 at 07:06 AM

Jorgen Udvang
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

I'm waiting for a focal length reducer that enables me to mount the GX680 180mm f/3.2 on my GM5. Or should I just drop the camera into the lens and shake it around a bit and see what kind of results I get?

Aug 04, 2016 at 07:43 AM

Gunzorro
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

I recently used a Mamiya 645 150/3.5 N lens on dumb adapter with a7R -- worked beautifully hand held, and I loved the portrait images -- that's a step down from the top lens Jim C mentions, the M645 150/2.8 N.

Also to chime in agreement on another lens Jim C mentioned -- the M645 55/2.8 is an amazing lens on a7R. Hard to define the qualities, but sharp, great color, smoother tonal transitions, attractive OOF areas, great wide open -- basically a top 50/55mm lens, if f/2.8 isn't too slow, which usually it's not! And cheap!

****************

Too bad these adapters seem made for only HB lenses at this time. I'd love to try my M645 35/3.5 N lens on it for a wider angle option.

Aug 04, 2016 at 07:45 AM

banpreso
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
I'm waiting for a focal length reducer that enables me to mount the GX680 180mm f/3.2 on my GM5. Or should I just drop the camera into the lens and shake it around a bit and see what kind of results I get?

mount the GM5 on GX 680 and shoot

btw regarding the focal reducer, from chinese websites this thing is selling around the $500 range

Aug 04, 2016 at 08:14 AM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

jcolwell wrote:
Well, at f/8 and infinity focus, the Mamiya 645 C 55/2.8 C is sharper across the frame than the Leica Summicron-R 50/2 E55, Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 35-70/3.4, and Canon EF 24-70/2.8 L II, and virtually tied with the much more expensive Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 50/2 ZE.

Also at f/8 and infinity focus, the Mamiya 645 C 80/2.8 N is sharper across the frame than the Voigtlander 75/2.5 Color Heliar SL, Canon EF 70-200/2.8 L IS II, EF 24-70/2.8 L II, EF 70-200/4 L IS, and Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 35-70/3.4.

Also at f/8 and infinity focus, the Mamiya A...Show more →

But how would these perform after the added glass/ optics introduced by the adapter? I can't imagine the quality would be unaffected.

Aug 04, 2016 at 09:02 AM

jcolwell
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

Gunzorro wrote:
-- that's a step down from the top lens Jim C mentions, the M645 150/2.8 N.

Hi Jim,

Actually, it's the "A 150/2.8", not "150/2.8 N" (of which, there ain't none). It's the same pedigree as the Mamiya A 120/4 Macro.

Aug 04, 2016 at 09:07 AM

jcolwell
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

Tariq Gibran wrote:
But how would these perform after the added glass/ optics introduced by the adapter? I can't imagine the quality would be unaffected.

That's true; however, the effects should be the same as when using an E-mount speed-booster adapter with something like a "35mm format" Canon EF 135/2L on a Metabones Speed-Booster.

Aug 04, 2016 at 09:14 AM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

jcolwell wrote:
That's true; however, the effects should be the same as when using an E-mount speed-booster adapter with something like a "35mm format" Canon EF 135/2L on a Metabones Speed-Booster.

Ultimately, I suppose the quality is unknown yet as some of these adapters are optically fairly neutral (like the Caldwell/ Metabones) but some of the Chinese versions are not so hot. I guess the jury's out on this one. It's Chinese I think though designed in Germany.

Aug 04, 2016 at 09:20 AM

dickb
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

Tariq Gibran wrote:
But how would these perform after the added glass/ optics introduced by the adapter? I can't imagine the quality would be unaffected.

I see no reason why it shouldn't work like all other 0.7x focal reducers, so 0.7x focal reduction and therefore one f/stop gain. So a 50/2.8 would turn into a 35/2.0, a 110/2 into a 77/1.4, a 150/2.8 into a 105/2.0, a 300/2.8 into a 210/2.0. If the added optics are really good the optical quality should increase, but that is a big if.

Does it make a lot of sense for most people? No. Is it an interesting option for people with a lot of medium format glass? Maybe. I for one like tinkering with lenses and having many options. This Hasselblad version isn't the most practical one for me, I would prefer a Mamiya 645 or a Pentacon 6 version.

Aug 04, 2016 at 10:12 AM

krug
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

banpreso wrote:
mirrorless camera = really small
medeium format lens = huge

put the two together = hilarious

it would be amazing to try hasselblad 110mm f2 lens on full frame tho, i'm not really too excited about trying other hasselblad v lenses on Sony A7. Maybe Pentax 6x7 lenses... now that would be interesting too.

Well yes some of the combinations would be hilarious BUT I have been playing with a Pentax 67 55/4 with a Canon adapter PLUS an E mount adapter - thus risking double converter problems and effectively adding a roughly 25mm extension tube. It is not so very unbalanced on the a7rii plus grip and the results have - to my eye - lovely subtle transitions and shades and not exactly unsharp when needed.
Some of these MF lenses are stunning in the centre, cheap to buy used and some we already have - whats not to like ?

But what do you think from the examples here ... feedback would be genuinely appreciated.

Aug 04, 2016 at 10:15 AM

trogdon
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

I feel like this was already announced, only for Hasselblad glass. It's the same optics company behind it that designed the Ibelux 40mm f0.85

http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/18774-kipon-baveyes-medium-format-speed-booster-for-full-frame-sony-a7-series/

I'd be interested in a more extreme version for 67 glass like a 0.55x converter, but this isn't hugely interesting to me and seems quite expensive

Aug 04, 2016 at 10:24 AM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

dickb wrote:
I see no reason why it shouldn't work like all other 0.7x focal reducers, so 0.7x focal reduction and therefore one f/stop gain. So a 50/2.8 would turn into a 35/2.0, a 110/2 into a 77/1.4, a 150/2.8 into a 105/2.0, a 300/2.8 into a 210/2.0. If the added optics are really good the optical quality should increase, but that is a big if.

I know how it works with regard to focal length of course. I'm curious though why you think the optical quality of the lens could possibly increase when adding more glass in the image path? Would that not at least decrease lens contrast due to the added elements? It could introduce aberrations as well depending on the quality of the optics. So yes, a BIG if.

Aug 04, 2016 at 11:01 AM

dickb
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I know how it works with regard to focal length of course. I'm curious though why you think the optical quality of the lens could possibly increase when adding more glass in the image path? Would that not at least decrease lens contrast due to the added elements? It could introduce aberrations as well depending on the quality of the optics. So yes, a BIG if.

The metabones speedbooster is considered to improve the optical quality as it condenses a larger image circle into a smaller one. This one does the same, potentially with a similar result. Just like teleconverters always decrease the IQ as they increase the image circle. The potential IQ gain of a focal reducer could of course be negated by a poor optical design.

Aug 04, 2016 at 02:23 PM

Gunzorro
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

jcolwell wrote:
Hi Jim,

Actually, it's the "A 150/2.8", not "150/2.8 N" (of which, there ain't none). It's the same pedigree as the Mamiya A 120/4 Macro.

Sorry -- forgot it was an Apo lens!

Aug 04, 2016 at 03:03 PM

zalmyb
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

why not a .5 reducer for pentax 67 lenses? that would be something. Id slap a 600mm f/4 on that thing and go to town.

Aug 04, 2016 at 03:09 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

Curious regarding how much IQ gain / loss there is going to be passing through the element(s) in the adapter.

I mean, if I want an 80mm FOV using MF glass, I can simply mount the 80mm MF lens rather than mounting a longer MF lens with a 120mm with a .7 factor to pass trough. Until you run out of FOV "wider" on the short end, I don't really see where this is going to be an advantage to put the extra optic in the path ... unless, the resolution is increased (beyond the losses incurred) as a byproduct of condensing the light path to a smaller image circle.

Imo, part of the reason for shooting MF glass is for the rate of transition it offers vs. its smaller brethren. Putting it through a different light path will render the transition more like its smaller brethren, thus negating its different rendering quality.

Also wondering if the additional optics are going to be as well corrected as the straight MF glass, or will they induce aberrations of their own that don't exist with the well corrected MF glass.

That said, having the 45/2.8 become a 31 FOV or the 35/3.5 N (remembering Yakim @ Happy Shooting), becoming a 24 FOV could be useful. Just not sure that a 35/3.5 N + .7 adapter is going to be a gain over a high quality 24mm in native FF.

Guess we'll find out.

Aug 04, 2016 at 05:53 PM

artur5
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

After having owned years ago the original Metabones Speedbooster, that I used on a NEX-7 with several SLR lenses, I’m a bit sceptical regarding the sharpness boost due to the reduced image circle.
With my Speedbooster the resulting quality depended a lot on the lens used. Wideangles didn’t improve much in the center and certainly corners were noticeably worse than when you mounted that same lens without SB on a Sony A7r, specially at wider apertures. Best results were obtained with glass of 50-100mm focal length, provided you stopped down a bit. Anyway, corners were always less than optimal at all apertures.

Aug 05, 2016 at 03:55 AM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · announced: Kipon medium format focal reducer

artur5 wrote:
After having owned years ago the original Metabones Speedbooster, that I used on a NEX-7 with several SLR lenses, I’m a bit sceptical regarding the sharpness boost due to the reduced image circle.
With my Speedbooster the resulting quality depended a lot on the lens used. Wideangles didn’t improve much in the center and certainly corners were noticeably worse than when you mounted that same lens without SB on a Sony A7r, specially at wider apertures. Best results were obtained with glass of 50-100mm focal length, provided you stopped down a bit. Anyway, corners were always less than optimal at all...Show more →

That's interesting. So if the Speedbooster is using the entire image circle of the lens at a reduced size, it would have to be a very good lens across the frame on it's original format or you will almost certainly see reduced off-axis performance as compared to using just the central sweet spot of the lens. Makes sense that wide lenses will fare worse.

Aug 05, 2016 at 07:29 AM

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